What kind of folder do you really want?

B for me at the moment. Not just because I am poor, but because I found one that "feels right" for me, a BM 556. I could find it on the floor in total dark and still have it safely open and usable in milli-moments.

Everyone sees quality differently and per their experiences. Knives seem to affect us passionatly at an almost viseral level and can bring out the beast or artist in any of us. For myself, it has to feel right, like it has always been in my hand. Anything less than that is dangerous to use and will probably be dissapointing.
 
I don't let the status or so called level of quality influence my decision to own or not. If the knife moves me I'll buy it. If after owning it, it still moves me I keep it. If not its out of here. The Kershaw Scallion moved me. I bought one. I still have it and have since picked up a Chive which I still have. The Leek, BlackOut, Vapor, and others were fine knives but are long gone now. The Buck 500, 501, 503, 505 same story. Bought them. Still have them all.

Bill Vinings custom that my friend Oupa (Dirk) designed moved me and I bought one regardless of the fact that it was over $350 at the time. Still have it and use it often. I prefer knives I will use over ones I'll look at. I also prefer ones I can get close too but many times it takes having it in hand to know if you can get close to it or not. Many of the ones I thought moved me at first have come and gone. I could make a ten page list of those and they cover all three of your criteria, A, B and C. I've had a ton of Spydercos, BenchMades, Bucks, Kershaws, Gerbers, and Kabars. At this time I have two Spydercos, Six Bucks, two Kershaws, Four Gerbers, and one Kabar go figure. Next week all those numbers could change drastically though. Just ask my wife. I'm moved quite often by folders actually, the real question is 'will it stick?'

STR
 
Most of mine are group B, but I am moving into the Group C/D whenever I can afford a new knife. My last knife was an XM-18, the one before that was a Todd Davidson slip joint, my next could be be from either of these or I am also considering an Ivory Mandi. Steven
 
But they would be ignorant to say the differences of the Maxam and the Sebenza are not improvements to other people, and that those other people aren't aware of the facts and are just paying for a name.
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You would be ignorant to claim the reason people pay more for a Sebbie is improvement/advantage. Yet that is what you have done. You have applied your judgment of the Sebenza to other nondescript 'people'. You saw something in the Sebenza that was superior to other knives. AllenC didn't. AllenC says 'people' aren't paying for improvements because he doesn't see any. You say 'people' are paying for improvements because you did. How can you say your position is in any way more defensible than his? You both owned a Sebenza, you both made a judgment on the value. For every reference you could find of someone saying they bought a Sebbie because they saw the superiority and advantages themselves, you could find another where someone says they bought a Sebbie because they simply heard/read it was a good knife. I could praise Maxams for days on end, and someone would take it to heart and buy one. Does that mean the Maxam truly provided that person with a higher quality product? No, they bought it because of marketing, not performance. There is no way you can make any blanket statement about why Sebbies are bought. AllenC did, and you took personal offense to it.

But when someone finds knife A better, it would be ignorant of them to say that the people that like knife B more are not aware of the facts. If knife B happens to cost more, it doesn't change the fact that to some people, the differences are improvements, and the improvements are worth it. To them.
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What knife is better than a Sebenza? What is this knife A? It's not that Sebenzas are not worth their price because they are inferior to another knife, it's that Sebenzas are not worth the premium. If AllenC finds a BM, Spydie, whatever to have 80% of the quality of a Sebbie, at 35% the price, then the Sebbie is still the higher quality piece, but the differences are not worth the premium to him. Especially when he finds the extra effort, labor, and expense to produce the Sebbie do not improve performance in his estimation. The Sebbie can still be better built, but not built well enough for the price, performance and materials.

I never said an "improvement" was not in the eye of the beholder, just that people are willing to pay for what are improvements to them. If something is not an improvement to you, you still do not have the right to say the people that find it to be an improvement don't know the facts, or that the knifemaker is charging extra for no reason. There *IS* a reason.
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What is that reason? AllenC spoke of improvement gains. You said one advantage of the Sebbie was the ease of grip changes. Tell me how that commands a premium. The shape of the Sebenza handle slabs should not increase the price. The tight clearances, the hand fitted lock, the precision cut bushing-those do. Those do not improve grip changes. And not everyone has your hands or manipulates a knife the way you do anyway. Your advantage is lost on AllenC and every other person on the planet. You made a judgment on the value of a Sebenza based on personal experience, and tried to provide it as a reason to others. AllenC did the same.

I am not saying anyone that disagrees with me, likes what I don't like, dislikes what I like, doesn't see improvements where I do, or sees disadvantages where I see advantages is *ANYTHING*, good or bad. My issue is that Allen does not understand that where he sees no advantages, other people do see them. They are not buying more expensive knives because they are in the dark on the facts, like he states. He is judgeing the opinions of others and calling their choices ignorant (lack of knowledge of the facts is ignorance). I am taking issue with him for doing that, not for not wanting to pay extra for any particular knife. He is calling other peoples choices ignorant. I am not. I am calling him ignorant for not accepting the opinions of others.
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He called no one ignorant. He said they were willing to pay a premium without receiving a performance gain. You don't have to be ignorant for that, only willing to spend money for something other than a performance gain. It's your own notion that paying for a brand is a bad thing. That someone wearing Tommy Hilfiger jeans is a 'poser' and cannot simply have a preference for them.
 
Well.... after thumbing through 6 pages of a thread that has gone horribly awry from what the subject started as.... I will have to say a few things....

Opinions are like A holes... everyone has one... and most of them stink!!!

And... Arguing on the internet... Is like competing in the special olympics... even if you win, you're still a retard.

So that said... I do find Hair's statements a bit to the side of "What I say Goes!!!" Sorry, I'm not used to such treatment since leaving Auschwitz.

What is right, practical and good... for one person does not make it right for the guy next to him.

I don't think that a custom knife is that much better than a production knife. INFACT!!! I can bet I can find more "custom" makers that make crap knives that can't even come close to competing with the quality that Microtech turns out. Yes I've owned high and low dollar knives. And sorry to say it, but the high dollar ones didn't make the cut any prettier than the cheap ones.

So that being said... I see that Allen was banned... It's not my bizness obviously, but after having dealing with him on numerous occassions I hope that he wasn't banned for the "insult" to HAIR, when from where I sit, HAIR started the animosity by calling him "IGNORANT". To define it... IGNORANCE IS LACK OF INFORMATION... STUPIDITY IS HAVING THE INFORMATION AND REFUSING TO USE IT.... And I think ANYONE on here who starts calling someone else IGNORANT when they don't have a clue who they are talking to... has got to be the candidate for the MORON AWARD.

Anyway, the best knife for me..... is the one I have in my pocket when I NEED one.... The one sittin at home... Lookin pretty?? Not savin my bacon?? Ain't too much of a concern for me.

YMMV,
DM
 
Wow, I thought this was the STR thread about what you look for in a folder. I guess I must live up to my name one way or another...
 
I am so sorry to see that allan gets banned. I have not expected that the thread will ever get into such a situation. I admit that I am the true ignoramus that I did not do anything to extinguish the fire before it got out of control.:o

I appreciate everyone's opinion. I personally do not have a Sebenza. So I have no idea how good it is. I know that quite some people at BF are in favor of Sebenza perhaps due to its status or performance or both. I admire Allan's courage to spell out his own opinion, wrong or right, which may be different from others or offend others. I believe that it is a lose of the forum that Allen gets banned.
 
a223cat said:
It isnt about cost. Its about the knife. looks, steel, fit, whatever I use to determine that I like a knife. If they were all free I would own the same knives!
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This sums it up for me. I might carry a SAK one day and a Sebenza the next.
 
My first impression is group C. I have enough of group A knives to compile statistical data,and group B has been explored to the lower recesses of group C many times already. Group C is where I am spending most of my time and money these days.
With 2 children out of college and the last going through now we seem to somehow have more disposable income.Go figure?
I like the Category C blades alot. And there sure is a difference in a $40.00 blade and a $400.00 blade! They both cut and that's where they split their personality's. The high end manufactured knives are great but I seem to lean toward the handmade one of a kind custom jobs.
I can gut and skin 10 deer before ever passing a good custom over my diamond stones. But the cheaper steels and shoddily made manufactured stuff falls away under hard repeated use.Cutting through bone,muscle and tough skin for hours on end can dull any knife. But I still appreciate the higher end tools.
Thanks God for being all grown up so I can afford some of the things I couldn't when I was still raising a family and paying on a 30 year mortgage!
Peace.
 
I wanted to leave this thread alone, but I have to say: I didn't draw first blood. I never attacked him personally. I attacked his comments. I said his comments were ignorant. He, in his first reply to me, said I was making a fool of myself. This is when all I had done was attack his comments.

I believe I did later call him ignorant, but that is hardly a personal attack. It is like saying "you're not perfect".

He stooped far below my level. I never called him a retard, or even said he was acting foolish.

If someone hates me because of this or any past thread, that is fine. I come here to help people, recieve help myself, hear the opinions of others, and speak my own mind. Looking good to you is not on my "to do" list when I come here.

But whether you hate me or not, I think it is very obvious that any line I crossed in this thread, he crossed and then some. If both of us had been banned, I would not have argued. But the fact that he got banned should be no surprise. The things he said went way beyond what is allowed on this forum. The things I said may have treaded the line, or made me look like a jerk, but I didn't go as far as he did.

Even if you guys love him and hate me, rules are rules. If I do get banned because of this thread, I won't complain about it. But him being banned is very fair. I cannot think that he made those comments without knowing he would be banned.
 
are not attacking him personally notwithstanding his prior post doesn't mention you at all. :rolleyes: I think you are in denial. You attacked him personally without provocation and have tried to shield yourself in some meaningless distinction between the person and "his opinions". I don't buy it. But I have said my peace.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4046872&postcount=1

I would invite BF members who are interested to click on the above link, review posts 40 and 45 of this thread and draw their own conclusions. The only thing I would add, Hair, is that I could care less whether or not you come here to "look good" to me or anyone else. What I care about is not instigating personal attacks. And whatever else Allen is guilty of here, he isn't the instigator of personal attacks in this thread.

Verb

Hair said:
I wanted to leave this thread alone, but I have to say: I didn't draw first blood. I never attacked him personally. I attacked his comments. I said his comments were ignorant. He, in his first reply to me, said I was making a fool of myself. This is when all I had done was attack his comments.

I believe I did later call him ignorant, but that is hardly a personal attack. It is like saying "you're not perfect".

He stooped far below my level. I never called him a retard, or even said he was acting foolish.

If someone hates me because of this or any past thread, that is fine. I come here to help people, recieve help myself, hear the opinions of others, and speak my own mind. Looking good to you is not on my "to do" list when I come here.

But whether you hate me or not, I think it is very obvious that any line I crossed in this thread, he crossed and then some. If both of us had been banned, I would not have argued. But the fact that he got banned should be no surprise. The things he said went way beyond what is allowed on this forum. The things I said may have treaded the line, or made me look like a jerk, but I didn't go as far as he did.

Even if you guys love him and hate me, rules are rules. If I do get banned because of this thread, I won't complain about it. But him being banned is very fair. I cannot think that he made those comments without knowing he would be banned.
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I agree it seems that AllenC's banning was a little hair triggered. Kind of USNish in my opinion. He even apologized in his last post. Yes I'd also agree calling someone and or there ideas ignorant are personally directed attacks.
 
DB I have to disagree.... I mean just because a person says something don't mean that it makes them a bad person.... I mean Hitler really was a Saint. He never MEANT to hurt anyone in what he said or did..

I'm not choosing sides here. I read the thread from front to back. And I don't care how you cut it.... Calling what someone says IGNORANT is an insult and attack on that person.

I personally don't think either member should be Red carded for their actions... a Yellow card should have sufficed. To each their own... Mods will be Mods.... Just trying to keep the playing field clean.

DM
 
My post was a little play on words. To be clear I don't think AllenC should have been banned, for what he did in this thread.
 
It's sad, he had been a member for over 6 years. I just did a trade with him, too. He wasn't satisfied, because he came out ahead in the deal. He contacted me to make a deal he felt was more equitable for me. He's a real gentleman when not dealing with pedantic posts from someone who hasn't quite yet hit their first account/knife collecting anniversary.
 
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