What knives to take for bushcraft course

[numberthree]

How about taking all your blades and learning the pros and cons of each for a truly well rounded blade experience. Am I the only one who sees the benefit of this?

Knifecraft skills are for large blades too.

Skam

I don't disagree with you, but he's taking a bushcraft course, not a comparative knife usage course. I would think that following the instructor's recommendations would be good manners at the very least, and perhaps integral to learning what the instructor is teaching. Many people who attend these courses are not 'knife types', and often don't even own a serious outdoors blade at all, much less a broad spectrum of sizes of knives. What instructors recommend for these sorts of things are small to medium blades that are easily and safely wielded by young and old, and easily afforded by the non knife owner. There are a lot of people who don't want to or can't carry a large fixed blade into the woods, and they are served well by learning outdoors skills with smaller blades.

Likewise, it'd be inapproriate for someone to attend one of your courses (assuming they can get through the tight 'security') with a 3" Opinel folder after you recommended they bring a 6"+ blade. They are not going to positively benefit from what you're teaching them if they don't follow your basic recommendations.

 

[RunzWithScissors]

I agree that if the teacher recommends to bring a certain knife than that is the one to bring. You don't want to be tying up the class trying to decide which knife to use when practicing a technique learned.

I would say bring the knife recommended and then practicing what you learned on your own time with as many knives you want until you decide which knife is the best for you.

Chad

 

[skammer]

I don't disagree with you, but he's taking a bushcraft course, not a comparative knife usage course. I would think that following the instructor's recommendations would be good manners at the very least, and perhaps integral to learning what the instructor is teaching. Many people who attend these courses are not 'knife types', and often don't even own a serious outdoors blade at all, much less a broad spectrum of sizes of knives. What instructors recommend for these sorts of things are small to medium blades that are easily and safely wielded by young and old, and easily afforded by the non knife owner. There are a lot of people who don't want to or can't carry a large fixed blade into the woods, and they are served well by learning outdoors skills with smaller blades.

Likewise, it'd be inapproriate for someone to attend one of your courses (assuming they can get through the tight 'security') with a 3" Opinel folder after you recommended they bring a 6"+ blade. They are not going to positively benefit from what you're teaching them if they don't follow your basic recommendations.

Did you read what I have written?

When asked I recommend larger blades, but I teach all blade sizes and their usefullness and let students decide what works for them the best. Bushcraft or not there is a place for large and small blades. I teach surivvial not blade appreciation. The appreciation happens when students realize the blades ability to help them in the field.

Its not about being polite its about getting the most education for your buck. Many of these courses are very expensive and to have an instructor limit your blades like airport security is plain wrong.

If students have never weilded a large blade how the hell do they know if its beneficial. This is why I supply knives of all sizes and shapes for my students to try out and urge them to bring their own. They decide what works not me. Invariably they usually come on board to larger blades when they see and experience their obvious advantage and utility over smaller blades. This descision is born of experience and results not my agenda or affinity to one blade style.

That would be the day I take an $800 2-3 day course and have an instuctor tell me I am not allow to try out different blades. I'd find another course.

Skam

 

[Ebbtide]

Ted, take the 2 knives in that you liked in the first post. And take the one the instructor recommends as well.
Different schools teach different methods.
If you took an ice hockey seminar in Europe it would be quite different from North American ice hockey.
Different schools of thought, eh?
Then when you take skammers class you can bring your best that money can buy uberprying knife and learn all about splitting 6' logs.

 

[skammer]

If you took an ice hockey seminar in Europe it would be quite different from North American ice hockey.
Different schools of thought, eh?
Then when you take skammers class you can bring your best that money can buy uberprying knife and learn all about splitting 6' logs.

If it were ice hockey the coach would not dictate what skates or stick or any gear you use as those are your tools of your trade.

I teach more than prying 6 inch logs thanks.

Skam

 

[RunzWithScissors]

If it were ice hockey the coach would not dictate what skates or stick or any gear you use as those are your tools of your trade.

I teach more than prying 6 inch logs thanks.

Skam

No but the coach also wouldn't wait around while you fiddled with the fifteen pairs of skates (exagerated for humor) you brought. You also wouldn't bring speed or figure skates if the coach told you to bring hockey skates.

Like I said before bring what the instructor tells you to bring and don't tie up the class messing with other knifes. Do that on your own time.

How do we know what you teach? You say you have a class but refuse to give any particulars.

Chad

 

[Cliff Stamp]

No but the coach also wouldn't wait around while you fiddled with the fifteen pairs of skates ...

You would be expect to experiment with the skates on your own time, hockey coaches generally don't tend to teach you how to skate. In contrast various aspects of bushcraft can be very dangerous (get you killed) so the time to experiment is with an experienced individual, not on your own.

I would be surprised if everyone taking this style of course was experienced with a knife, so it isn't unreasonable to expect specifics. It isn't also as simple as learn with a Mora, then just extrapolate to a bowie, the techniques are different.

Peter from Fallkniven has talked about woodcraft with his knives and how to take advantage of the stoutness of the knives, similar to Skammar. You can't see this at all from working with slighter blades, it is a totally different perspective.

I would simply ask the instructor how he feels about you using the course to field test a few blades and see what they can do. If he is not willing to support this viewpoint then it isn't going to be of much use to bring them.

-Cliff

 

[ras]

Here's a thought: ask the instructor about bringing along a few knives that are larger than he recommends and see if he has any reservations. The Mora may simply be a cheap recommendation for those who wonder what to have and may not be intended as a limitation. He is the person who should be answering this question, not a disassociated group on the internet looking for a good definition of "bushcraft".

 

[skammer]

As was said no harm in asking.

I don't think he would limit your fire starting methods to just one method so why limit blades.

Practice is the time to try out everything and under the instruction of a decent teacher even better.

Skam

 

[Ebbtide]

My hockey analogy was a poor one?

When one tries so hard to be right, one loses sight of the big picture.
It was an analogy.
:yawn:

This brings to mind another old saying:
A man can make the same mistake for years and call it experience.

:yawn:

 

[Bogdan Ristivojevic]

Buscraft is a name for a number of skills centered around semi primitive liong termn living in the woods usualy of a land, but not nececary. Usualy most instructors use around 4" knife for a such course, and for chopping they have something heavyer around, but at most times not a big knife. Big knifes are not PC in Europe, and people start asking question whantyhey see guys toting big knives around.

I am teaching buscraft sjkills in Serbia, and we had problems with a law regarding big knives few years ago, but I don't forbid my students to carry one, I just dont recomend that, because in my opinion light 4" blade and axe are a right combo for buscraft. 4" blade is much more usable in survival situation along with wery small axe, lets say a Vaughan mini axe is a perfect choice, and it is 12 oz hatchet, with small knife it weight less than big knife, in addition to small folding saw as Laplander it can finish all the job needed in European temperate climate. 4" blade is much more controlable and safer in making things needed for a long term living in a woods than big blade, from spoons, bowls, traps to everything else, and prying, diging and hard work is left to tools made by small knife.

Mu advice to you is to pick thin edged knife, it needs to be sharp and to be easyly reharpenable, and in my opinion Fallkniven F1 have too thick edge for a real buscraft use. I tested it a long time, and it doesn't work as well as some other knives as BRKT North Star or prototype of Aurora, which are thin edged buscraft knives designet to be such from the start. Fallknibven can be usable after the edge is thinned, but in factory condition it falls back after other two I mentioned.

Real eyeopener to our students is demonstration of cutting green sapling about 2" in diameter with one swep of simple and cheap Mora No1, without any choping, and North Star or Aurora require even less force to achive same results. Moras can be brought to same level by convexing and rounding of the shoulders,k low drag is key factor in such demonstrations.

In my experience big knives can be wery physicaly demanding to a students, and wery soon they are starting to make deadly mistakes with them, from glancing blows during chopping to sutting themself because of loss of control due to heavyweight blade and fatique. That is why I take special care to students using big blades, and after just few days they are leaving them in the camp, using my borrow out knives, usualy ckheap Moras No1.. I don't like knives with guards, and taht is why I don't use SWAK-s in my courses.

Bogdan Ristivojevic.

 

[Gerald McDonald]

I like anonymity

See if you can talk Cliff into following that principal

 

[abo4ster]

Sorry I didn't read all the posts, so I hope I am not repeating anything, but here is my $0.02...

The reason you are taking the course is to learn about something your are not familiar. I have been there before. Chances are as your skill level increases your choice of knife will change too. I know I went through many different knives as my primitive skills increased. Folders in SS including Sebenzas to fixed blades in S30V to eventually a Mora type knife of high carbon. It seemed the more I learned, the simplier I wanted. So my advice is to go with non-stainless Mora type knife, not only because the instructor recommends it, but because the majority of the people who practice bushcraft use them as well. Why? Because you can make a spark with a sharp rock for fire and the ease of sharpening being the primary reasons. Most primitive practioners are not going to carry a diamond sharpener or spend the money on what us knife nuts would either. So spend $10 and at least bring a Mora, I think you will be pleasantly surprised. Good luck.

 

[TedV]

Buscraft is a name for a number of skills centered around semi primitive liong termn living in the woods usualy of a land, but not nececary. Usualy most instructors use around 4" knife for a such course, and for chopping they have something heavyer around, but at most times not a big knife. Big knifes are not PC in Europe, and people start asking question whantyhey see guys toting big knives around.

I am teaching buscraft sjkills in Serbia, and we had problems with a law regarding big knives few years ago, but I don't forbid my students to carry one, I just dont recomend that, because in my opinion light 4" blade and axe are a right combo for buscraft. 4" blade is much more usable in survival situation along with wery small axe, lets say a Vaughan mini axe is a perfect choice, and it is 12 oz hatchet, with small knife it weight less than big knife, in addition to small folding saw as Laplander it can finish all the job needed in European temperate climate. 4" blade is much more controlable and safer in making things needed for a long term living in a woods than big blade, from spoons, bowls, traps to everything else, and prying, diging and hard work is left to tools made by small knife.

Mu advice to you is to pick thin edged knife, it needs to be sharp and to be easyly reharpenable, and in my opinion Fallkniven F1 have too thick edge for a real buscraft use. I tested it a long time, and it doesn't work as well as some other knives as BRKT North Star or prototype of Aurora, which are thin edged buscraft knives designet to be such from the start. Fallknibven can be usable after the edge is thinned, but in factory condition it falls back after other two I mentioned.

Real eyeopener to our students is demonstration of cutting green sapling about 2" in diameter with one swep of simple and cheap Mora No1, without any choping, and North Star or Aurora require even less force to achive same results. Moras can be brought to same level by convexing and rounding of the shoulders,k low drag is key factor in such demonstrations.

In my experience big knives can be wery physicaly demanding to a students, and wery soon they are starting to make deadly mistakes with them, from glancing blows during chopping to sutting themself because of loss of control due to heavyweight blade and fatique. That is why I take special care to students using big blades, and after just few days they are leaving them in the camp, using my borrow out knives, usualy ckheap Moras No1.. I don't like knives with guards, and taht is why I don't use SWAK-s in my courses.

Bogdan Ristivojevic.

Interesting info - thanks Bodgan. I found your thread about the Aurora on outdoors-magazine. Would have loved to see the blade profile of the Aurora. I've had a Highlander & Woodland, but found them to small for my hands. I don't really like the handles & lanyard thing of The Fox River & Northstar. It looks like the Aurora has the 'orignal' style handle... Any specs on overall length?

 

[skammer]

In my experience big knives can be wery physicaly demanding to a students, and wery soon they are starting to make deadly mistakes with them, from glancing blows during chopping to sutting themself because of loss of control due to heavyweight blade and fatique. That is why I take special care to students using big blades, and after just few days they are leaving them in the camp, using my borrow out knives, usualy ckheap Moras No1.. I don't like knives with guards, and taht is why I don't use SWAK-s in my courses.

Bogdan Ristivojevic.

This is a fair statement as you do not ban the use of large blades and allow students to decide after using them. As a teacher should, do not force their bias but rather instruct on all the options and let experience decide.

Skam

 

[Bogdan Ristivojevic]

Ted,

As you can read in tread on OMF I can't yet show pictures of Aurora, but it will definitly be the winner. The handle is just perfect, especialy the one which will be on final design, alowing a lott of force to be aplyed to the blade comfortably. Handle is completly different than on original, I had a chance to test original recently and was completly disapointed, North Star outshoots it a light years and Aurora even more. Blade on Aurora is just right size, so you can presume about which size.

Skam, That was also my opinion, I am not forcing students to gear I am using, they will change it after the course definitly. I just recomend Mora for a starters or low end Pukkos like Martinni Lynx carbon ones, or IIsakki carbons, which are more easyly obtainable here, but modifying such knives to be realy usable is lott work and begginres are usualy unable to do that properly, they don't even know how to do that.

I also recomend carbon steel for easy of sharpening, and hoodohone metod, actualy a easyly obtainable sanding pad with few different grit emery papers, and a leather strop with cutt and polish buffing compounds. For carbon steel knives that is motre than enough, and from my experience highly polished edges last much longer in bushcraft use than anything else.. That is the reasons I don't recomend diamond sharpening plates or ceramic ones, current system is as efficient or even more efficient and much cheaper which is a big consideration in my country.

Bogdan

 

[TedV]

Sorry I didn't read all the posts, so I hope I am not repeating anything, but here is my $0.02...

The reason you are taking the course is to learn about something your are not familiar. I have been there before. Chances are as your skill level increases your choice of knife will change too. I know I went through many different knives as my primitive skills increased. Folders in SS including Sebenzas to fixed blades in S30V to eventually a Mora type knife of high carbon. It seemed the more I learned, the simplier I wanted. So my advice is to go with non-stainless Mora type knife, not only because the instructor recommends it, but because the majority of the people who practice bushcraft use them as well. Why? Because you can make a spark with a sharp rock for fire and the ease of sharpening being the primary reasons. Most primitive practioners are not going to carry a diamond sharpener or spend the money on what us knife nuts would either. So spend $10 and at least bring a Mora, I think you will be pleasantly surprised. Good luck.

Quiet Bear - interesting post. Allthough I'm at the point where I think the Neil Roberts isn't the best choice, going with a Mora is quite the opposite. I understand they are excellent value, but if the Mora would turn out to be the 'do-it-all' knife, I would have some major selling to do.
I'm getting some diamond rods in the mail for my sharpmaker, so I can put a brand new full 30 degree edge on my Fallkniven. In the field I'll bring a small ceramic stone (Spyderco 303MF) for field touch ups then.
But, it's still a week away, so I might just chance my mind

 

[Cliff Stamp]

In my experience big knives can be wery physicaly demanding to a students, and wery soon they are starting to make deadly mistakes with them, from glancing blows during chopping to sutting themself because of loss of control due to heavyweight blade and fatique.

Which big blades?

...Fallkniven F1 have too thick edge for a real buscraft use.

Is this the old v-ground one or the new convex one or both? In any case adjusting the edge to an angle similar to a puukko takes 1-2 minutes with a handstone and now it cuts better than a puukko and sharpens much easier.

-Cliff

 

[Bogdan Ristivojevic]

Cliff, I had chance to test more than few knives in last years, from CS Trailmaster, Odin, BM to Beckers, and generaly all of them are to heavy for fine woodwork which is basic skill fro buscraft. Actualy most of my students are people who are sitting in the offices most of the day, with too soft hands and not in prime physical fitness, and heavy big blade, even something like Trailmaster make them tired wery fast, and after a short time they loose control, simply muscles doesn't listen brain commands..

I meaned convex ground Fallknivens, they are too thick just behind the edge, and no matter of sharp edge drag in the gren wood is to big to be realy efficient. Of course after a lott of regrinding and thining they get much better, but there are knives with much thinner convex from the start like BRKT which are perfect cutters.

It isnt just the case of adjusting the bevels for a few mm, whole edge is to thick compared to other knives I have from Cliff Canoe by Mike Mann, to BRKT North Star and Aurora.. I don't consider pucco scandi without secondary bevel as durable enough for buscraft, and ones with greater angle as on original Ray Mears simply doesnt cut well enough..



Bogdan

 

[Cliff Stamp]

... generaly all of them are to heavy for fine woodwork

Most of those blades come with edges that are too obtuse for light wood working. You can easily get them to cut as well as fine blades, by reducing the edge angle, and with proper technique (choking up, short breaks, reduce speed/effort) you can vastly reduce fatigue, detail point work is still not overly efficient though.

However in terms of pure fatigue, a short hike (1 km) drains *way* more calories. If someone gets tired so quickly with light brush work I would wonder how they ever got in the woods. Note as well that working with an unfamiliar tool is very demanding the first time, your body will respond rapidly and even within a few days you will notice a difference.

But in any case, if what you are doing is mainly fine knife work, a small blade is directly better.

...after a short time they loose control, simply muscles doesn't listen brain commands..

One of the most important aspects of working with tools in general is knowing how to handle fatigue, you don't use large chopping blades, or saws when you get tired. Same thing for small blades of course, consider having to do a hike in a hot climate and then immediately trying to do fine carving.

I meaned convex ground Fallknivens, they are too thick just behind the edge ...

I have not used the convex ground F1, but the v-ground one was really thin, if you adjusted the edge angle, which is trivial, a couple of minutes, it would readily out cut a puukko. Interesting that the convex F1 is significantly thicker.

I don't consider pucco scandi without secondary bevel as durable enough for buscraft

Why not run a full flat grind then (outside of cheapness of puukkos)?

...and ones with greater angle as on original Ray Mears simply doesnt cut well enough.

Yes, some people think the grind cut well irregardless of the angle, when it is the fact that the edge on traditional puukko's is ~10 degrees which allows it to cut well, not the fact is is a single bevel.

-Cliff