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What knives to take for bushcraft course
- Thread starter TedV
- Start date
- Joined
- May 30, 2001
- Messages
- 25
By beeing heavy for woodworking I didn't mean heavy edge, just too heavy, and they are hard to be controled for fine work. No matter how they are held, by back of the edge or in different way, they requuire more skill than smaller blade, and if someone is learning iot is alredy to hard for him, I don't want to make them much harder.
We do not do only fine work, but for unexperienced small saw like Bahco Laplander is much safer tool than any chopers. I also show them how to use AXE, a proper technique, with ground as safety device. Students can use full size axe with light head, and only trainers are alowed smaler axes in size of SFA, or reground Vaughan, although I am trying to teach students slowly use of Vaughan.
Safety on such courses deep in the woods is of prime importance.
I agree that short hike drains away more calories but our students can stand hiking much bettter. Most of them run daily, so they are in shape for walking and running, buit on the other side coping require use of muscle groups which they don't use regulary with a lott of dextrity to fuly control blade. And secondly skin on their hands is thin, not used to heavy work, so usualy they have sores, and I discovered that most people are trying to modify their technique in such way to avoid hurting same places on hands. That also lowers control, and almost all big knives are prone to glancing, especialy if user can not fuly control them.. Again, instructors and people with experience are completly different category, but I am trying to awoid separating people into ones which can and other which can't use some tools. So generaly I am trying not to teach techniques which require big blades skills, in my opinion axes are much more optimized for such work.
Jim Aston - Jimbo had simmilar experience with his H1, he reground it to full scandy edge without secondary bevel, but I don't go to such extreems. I just thin about 1/4 wide areaa behind the edge, that is part where Fallknivens are too thick. I got BWM1 yesterday, and it also had same thick convex, which in my opinion is unececary on such small knife. It reduces cyutting efficiency, and on small knives forces exerted are much lower, anyway VG 10 is a though steel, so I don't feel the need for thick bl;ade behind the edge.
BRKT knives depending on model are usualy ground much thinner behind the edge, they are generaly much better tool if comparing unmodifyed knives, and from my experience they stand quite well in durability department even in the hands of inexperienced.
I came to conclusion recently that advanced user are much less hard on knife blades than beginners, I remember my first tries and how I was destroying even thick ground edges. Thise days I can use a pritty thin bladed knife for most of work, with wery low angle without damaging the edge, it come with practice. Thats why I am loaning knives I want to test to students, and thats how I know that BRKT edge stands exceptionaly well in hard use. For myself that edge can stand whole season without getting any nicks, with just stropping as only mean of sharpening.
I rarly use Puukkos this days, Full flat ground convex is in my opinion a way to go, and my knives of choice are Bark River knife and tool with such edges. But Puukkos are still cheapest entry buscraft knives, and with straightening and polishing the edges, adn rounding the shoulders they can do quite well, but they are completly other beasts than the factory ones. Everyone who invest a few hours of his time in a Puukko can see how they can become a realy efficient knives. Of course next step are knives from better material and heat treat like (I must mention them again) BRKT North STar, or Aurora, which are a real improvment in efficiency in any task, and I don't think that there is a need at all to go to to original Ray Mears or Bison, or Wilkinson Sword Buscraft knives. I have issues with oruiginal scandi edged designs and don't considerd them a too happy solution..
I couldnt agree more, and low angle scandi edge could be even less efficient than V ground edge, I consider them as full flat grind knives with actualy paralel sides and scandy grind as secondaruy bevel, and because that secondary bevel is a realy high they are not efficient at all. So they need same treatment as other V sharpened knives with wrong secondary bevel, a total reground to become truly efficient.
Bogdan
We do not do only fine work, but for unexperienced small saw like Bahco Laplander is much safer tool than any chopers. I also show them how to use AXE, a proper technique, with ground as safety device. Students can use full size axe with light head, and only trainers are alowed smaler axes in size of SFA, or reground Vaughan, although I am trying to teach students slowly use of Vaughan.
Safety on such courses deep in the woods is of prime importance.
I agree that short hike drains away more calories but our students can stand hiking much bettter. Most of them run daily, so they are in shape for walking and running, buit on the other side coping require use of muscle groups which they don't use regulary with a lott of dextrity to fuly control blade. And secondly skin on their hands is thin, not used to heavy work, so usualy they have sores, and I discovered that most people are trying to modify their technique in such way to avoid hurting same places on hands. That also lowers control, and almost all big knives are prone to glancing, especialy if user can not fuly control them.. Again, instructors and people with experience are completly different category, but I am trying to awoid separating people into ones which can and other which can't use some tools. So generaly I am trying not to teach techniques which require big blades skills, in my opinion axes are much more optimized for such work.
Jim Aston - Jimbo had simmilar experience with his H1, he reground it to full scandy edge without secondary bevel, but I don't go to such extreems. I just thin about 1/4 wide areaa behind the edge, that is part where Fallknivens are too thick. I got BWM1 yesterday, and it also had same thick convex, which in my opinion is unececary on such small knife. It reduces cyutting efficiency, and on small knives forces exerted are much lower, anyway VG 10 is a though steel, so I don't feel the need for thick bl;ade behind the edge.
BRKT knives depending on model are usualy ground much thinner behind the edge, they are generaly much better tool if comparing unmodifyed knives, and from my experience they stand quite well in durability department even in the hands of inexperienced.
I came to conclusion recently that advanced user are much less hard on knife blades than beginners, I remember my first tries and how I was destroying even thick ground edges. Thise days I can use a pritty thin bladed knife for most of work, with wery low angle without damaging the edge, it come with practice. Thats why I am loaning knives I want to test to students, and thats how I know that BRKT edge stands exceptionaly well in hard use. For myself that edge can stand whole season without getting any nicks, with just stropping as only mean of sharpening.
I rarly use Puukkos this days, Full flat ground convex is in my opinion a way to go, and my knives of choice are Bark River knife and tool with such edges. But Puukkos are still cheapest entry buscraft knives, and with straightening and polishing the edges, adn rounding the shoulders they can do quite well, but they are completly other beasts than the factory ones. Everyone who invest a few hours of his time in a Puukko can see how they can become a realy efficient knives. Of course next step are knives from better material and heat treat like (I must mention them again) BRKT North STar, or Aurora, which are a real improvment in efficiency in any task, and I don't think that there is a need at all to go to to original Ray Mears or Bison, or Wilkinson Sword Buscraft knives. I have issues with oruiginal scandi edged designs and don't considerd them a too happy solution..
I couldnt agree more, and low angle scandi edge could be even less efficient than V ground edge, I consider them as full flat grind knives with actualy paralel sides and scandy grind as secondaruy bevel, and because that secondary bevel is a realy high they are not efficient at all. So they need same treatment as other V sharpened knives with wrong secondary bevel, a total reground to become truly efficient.
Bogdan
- Joined
- May 30, 2001
- Messages
- 25
Ras, sorry I forgot to answer you in previous post, that is the knife I recoment to students, but with standard blade, not laminated one. But we don't have dealer here, so mostly Iisakki is a prime choice. Unfortunatly in our stores it is ptritty hard to find carbon steel ones, and they are special orders so students often came with SS ones. They require a more work to be properly formed into Bushcraft edge, and I consider that mod out of the reach of beginners.
I also ask the guys with big choppers to came to the school with Opi No10 or 12, they are cheap enopugh than I can do that, and with convexing and changing angles they become good woodworking knives, although a little weak for some tasks.
B.
I also ask the guys with big choppers to came to the school with Opi No10 or 12, they are cheap enopugh than I can do that, and with convexing and changing angles they become good woodworking knives, although a little weak for some tasks.
B.
Bogdan,
Thanks. I found the laminated Frosts #S1 online for less than $11 so I ordered a couple. While I'm sure the steel is excellent and will hold a good edge, what concerns me most is flex in the blade. I normally use a heavier blade, not so much for chopping but for stiffness; the knife isn't going to move on its own. One of my favorites lately is a Fehrman Peace Maker which is an excellent blade and I suspect much stiffer than the Mora, but at a much stiffer price too. I'll try the Mora though and see how it works.
Thanks. I found the laminated Frosts #S1 online for less than $11 so I ordered a couple. While I'm sure the steel is excellent and will hold a good edge, what concerns me most is flex in the blade. I normally use a heavier blade, not so much for chopping but for stiffness; the knife isn't going to move on its own. One of my favorites lately is a Fehrman Peace Maker which is an excellent blade and I suspect much stiffer than the Mora, but at a much stiffer price too. I'll try the Mora though and see how it works.
- Joined
- Aug 24, 2003
- Messages
- 1,461
Ted Voorde said:Quiet Bear - interesting post. Allthough I'm at the point where I think the Neil Roberts isn't the best choice, going with a Mora is quite the opposite. I understand they are excellent value, but if the Mora would turn out to be the 'do-it-all' knife, I would have some major selling to do.
I'm getting some diamond rods in the mail for my sharpmaker, so I can put a brand new full 30 degree edge on my Fallkniven. In the field I'll bring a small ceramic stone (Spyderco 303MF) for field touch ups then.
But, it's still a week away, so I might just chance my mind
Whether you take the course or not, your knife choice will likely evolve, so why not give something that has been around and accepted through history as a practical tool a try. Why are you taking the course? If somewhere in the rationale it is to experience the simplier things, make your knife coinside. Also, no need to sell anything, knives are my hobby too, and lord know I have enough impractical cutlery and will be getting more. Best wishes and enjoy!
- Joined
- Jul 18, 2000
- Messages
- 1,289
Quiet Bear said:
Hi Quiet Bear - the 'change my mind' was about which knife to bring, not about taking the course yes or no. That's going for sure next weekend.
The reason I'm taking it is to have a good weekend in the bush with a good friend, hopefully learn interesting things. And indeed, also to experience the simplier things. But that doesn't mean I'm gonna buy a $10 Mora. I have plenty of good knives and I think the Fallkniven F1 is also very simple. It might be more expensive then a Mora, but both are no-nonsense knives to me. 
- Joined
- Jun 16, 2003
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We housed an exchange student from China. He wanted to cook a dinner for us, but first we had to get a "proper knife." I wanted to know what was wrong with the nice, sharp knives I had purchased over the years. Turns out they were all "wrong" because they were all "V" or convex edged. He wanted a "proper knife" with a single-bevel edge (half of a "V" edge). We got him one from the oriental plaza near downtown, and he "went to town" with it. :thumbup:
Different strokes an' all that.
Different strokes an' all that.
- Joined
- May 30, 2001
- Messages
- 25
TLM, before 1900 all knives were convex ground, without secondary bevel. Secondary bevel is ivention of modern times and mass machine production, because it is almost impossible to achive on CNC machines.
If you look at old knives in museums you will never found any secondary bevel sharpened one, no matter how hard you look, except in few isolated cases, like chisel ground kitchen knives or holow scandi grind.
I have more than few old knives in my hands, starting from around 12 centery, and all of them were completly convex. I live in a country with colourfull history, and central europe is weyu interesting from historian pouint of wiew.
BTW, in that sentence you pulled out of the whole text, I was refering to large andgle modern scandi buscraft knives, like original Woodlore. When compared to original Puukkos it is realy unefficient, and its edge is designed more for durability than for real cutting power. Pukkos are realy efficient, although full flat ground convex knives are much more durable with just slight loss of efficiency, which is replaced by easyness of maintance.
Bogdan
If you look at old knives in museums you will never found any secondary bevel sharpened one, no matter how hard you look, except in few isolated cases, like chisel ground kitchen knives or holow scandi grind.
I have more than few old knives in my hands, starting from around 12 centery, and all of them were completly convex. I live in a country with colourfull history, and central europe is weyu interesting from historian pouint of wiew.
BTW, in that sentence you pulled out of the whole text, I was refering to large andgle modern scandi buscraft knives, like original Woodlore. When compared to original Puukkos it is realy unefficient, and its edge is designed more for durability than for real cutting power. Pukkos are realy efficient, although full flat ground convex knives are much more durable with just slight loss of efficiency, which is replaced by easyness of maintance.
Bogdan
- Joined
- Jun 16, 2003
- Messages
- 20,207
Pretty please:
Maker/brand?
Specifications (length, width, thickness, steel, RC, grind)?
Cost?
Availability?
They look like some I have seen on the UK forums.
Maker/brand?
Specifications (length, width, thickness, steel, RC, grind)?
Cost?
Availability?
They look like some I have seen on the UK forums.
Cliff Stamp
BANNED
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- Oct 5, 1998
- Messages
- 17,562
[larger blades]
Often times you have to use different techniques, for example you use a large knife as a drawknife where a small blade would be used to directly whittle away rough stock, often times you will chop with a large knife for notching on traps for example where you would carve with a small knife. But yes, I agree a smaller knife is often more efficient.
Yes, it is pretty hard to injure yourself with a saw.
This is interesting, Jim Aston mentioned awhile ago he viewed it the same way, around here it is the opposite, you start with hatchets and eventually work up to full size felling axes. Generally you split before you limb and limb before you fell.
If this is problematic with a blade how can they swing an axe which is far more physically demanding?
[H1]
Mine basically came that way, the secondary edge bevel was just barely visible by eye.
Fallkniven in general place a high regard for robustness in their knives, they place a lot of value on prying, they are not optomized for low stress wood work it is more survival/tactical, neither are puukko's though.
Take your favorite puukko, lay it on a belt sander and put a primary full flat or full convex grind on the blade. It gets much better as a knife in every respect. It will cut better, the edge will be more durable and it will sharpen *MUCH* easier.
-Cliff
Bogdan Ristivojevic said:
Often times you have to use different techniques, for example you use a large knife as a drawknife where a small blade would be used to directly whittle away rough stock, often times you will chop with a large knife for notching on traps for example where you would carve with a small knife. But yes, I agree a smaller knife is often more efficient.
Yes, it is pretty hard to injure yourself with a saw.
This is interesting, Jim Aston mentioned awhile ago he viewed it the same way, around here it is the opposite, you start with hatchets and eventually work up to full size felling axes. Generally you split before you limb and limb before you fell.
If this is problematic with a blade how can they swing an axe which is far more physically demanding?
[H1]
Mine basically came that way, the secondary edge bevel was just barely visible by eye.
Fallkniven in general place a high regard for robustness in their knives, they place a lot of value on prying, they are not optomized for low stress wood work it is more survival/tactical, neither are puukko's though.
Bogdan Ristivojevic said:
Take your favorite puukko, lay it on a belt sander and put a primary full flat or full convex grind on the blade. It gets much better as a knife in every respect. It will cut better, the edge will be more durable and it will sharpen *MUCH* easier.
-Cliff
- Joined
- Jun 16, 2003
- Messages
- 20,207
Myakka said:
Sorry. I remember you know. How could I forget?
I don't count most of the "woodlore" knives as scandis just because of the different geometry.
BR: I may have misunderstood you, before 1900 not all puukkos were convex ground, just those that were sharpened by handstones. And yes, secondary bevels were never used, I guess the concept was invented by the devil.
Puukko was sharpened according to the most frequent use, a hunter would do it differently from a carpenter and a farmer. The shape of the blade also varied a lot, by the usage again.
The most often misunderstood fact about puukko is that it really was used as an everyday tool for anything where a knife would be useful.
TLM
- Joined
- May 30, 2001
- Messages
- 25
TLM, to best of my knowledge, because Puukkos were so light a lott of people carried more than one, each optimized for differenyt task. I don't know if it is a myth, but it sound quite OK to me.
It is amazing how efficiency of Scandy bevel is lost when there is secondary bevel, no matter how small it is. Iisaki pukkos, most common ones around here came witrh one, and it is suprise to lott of people when they see what they can get with regrounding them. They become completly diifferent beasts, after the edge is moved back into the blade a few mm by regrounding to remove all burnt steel on the edge from the buffer, and to get edge straight. Thats trick I get from Jim Aston, and it realy work on almost all low to middle range priced production Puukkos.
Cliff, actualy I can't remember anybody else which made so large impact on my knowledge on blades as Jim Aston, we become friends a few years back, and he is realy great guy. We discussed different aspects of axecraft a lott, often in public forums, and I listen his advice to try light head on large handle, and it is working like a champion even for me, not to mention teaching.
Suprisingly I discovered that light axe with long handle is physicaly less demanding than big knife, and much more safe. I took Jim's advice to the extreeme, and mount 30" handle on 1 1/4 lb head, and that is our starter axe. It is pritty longhandled, so ground acts as a safety stop. It is also used two handed, which make it even easyer to controll, and only real danger is that some of the students will try to use it by holding at the hallf length of the handle, but we stop that at the moment we notice that. I teach them not to use too much force, which isn't the same with big blade, and to lett fall of the axe to do its job, which is werry efficient on long handles, and they don't spend so much fine muscle power in that work.
Jimbo also made experiments with Vaughan and 20" handle, and in that config it become extreme efficient chopper, but 20" doesn't sound too safe for me, it is a bit too short.
I go on oposite way with propouse, from safer tools to less safe, and I don't like usig hatchet first, they are most dangerous tools in arsenal.
Actualy I forget to mention that Jimbos is reground to full flat scandi edge, which is a long way from convex they came with. My H1 didn't came with secondary bevel, but suprisingly I just looked to BWM1 I got few days ago, and it have secondary bevel, but no matter regrinding is anyway nececary..
Generaly Fallknivens are optimized for use by nionskilled users, VG 10 is though steel and it stands rough use quite well, but thick edge just add durability on the expense of efficiency. That is ok for nonskilled user, but as the level of skill raises there are less and less chances for edge to get damaged, so it can be thinner and more efficient in what is primary task, cutting. I understand Peter reasons for thick edge, but that is one of the reasons I do not recomend Fallknivens. Regrinding them is above reach of most users.
I did that, but I was not pleased with results, and it is above skill level of usual user. My technique of regrinding them is simmilar to Jim Astions, edge is straightened and make flat without secondary bevel, shoulders of the bevel are rounded and blended into both surfaces without visuible transition, and that just the edge is convexed a little on mouse pad with emery paper. Coonvex is small, but it raise durability a lott, without loosing cutting ability. Resharpeniong and maintance is wery easy, by emery paper on mousepad, and regular maintance is just stropping on leather loaded with black magic cut compound, and polishiing with green cromium oxide. If blade gets dented, and I am on the short weekend I usualy dont repair it in wood, I wait untill I get home, and other parts will get me through without a hitch.
Full flat grounding on puukkos remove a lott of material, and thin stocked ones become too bendable and easy to break. Rounding of the shoulders leave more material in crossection, and thats why after tried other metods I stick to that way.
Myakka, great looking knives, but that is exactly the bevel I mentioned that it isn't efficient enough. It is simply too high angle, trading durability of edge for efficiency. Such knives will be much better with full convex, to the top of the blade, like Fallknivens but thinner, because current bevel is to low angle to be good for buscraft skills and any other work. I will never recomend one to my students.
B.
It is amazing how efficiency of Scandy bevel is lost when there is secondary bevel, no matter how small it is. Iisaki pukkos, most common ones around here came witrh one, and it is suprise to lott of people when they see what they can get with regrounding them. They become completly diifferent beasts, after the edge is moved back into the blade a few mm by regrounding to remove all burnt steel on the edge from the buffer, and to get edge straight. Thats trick I get from Jim Aston, and it realy work on almost all low to middle range priced production Puukkos.
Cliff, actualy I can't remember anybody else which made so large impact on my knowledge on blades as Jim Aston, we become friends a few years back, and he is realy great guy. We discussed different aspects of axecraft a lott, often in public forums, and I listen his advice to try light head on large handle, and it is working like a champion even for me, not to mention teaching.
Suprisingly I discovered that light axe with long handle is physicaly less demanding than big knife, and much more safe. I took Jim's advice to the extreeme, and mount 30" handle on 1 1/4 lb head, and that is our starter axe. It is pritty longhandled, so ground acts as a safety stop. It is also used two handed, which make it even easyer to controll, and only real danger is that some of the students will try to use it by holding at the hallf length of the handle, but we stop that at the moment we notice that. I teach them not to use too much force, which isn't the same with big blade, and to lett fall of the axe to do its job, which is werry efficient on long handles, and they don't spend so much fine muscle power in that work.
Jimbo also made experiments with Vaughan and 20" handle, and in that config it become extreme efficient chopper, but 20" doesn't sound too safe for me, it is a bit too short.
I go on oposite way with propouse, from safer tools to less safe, and I don't like usig hatchet first, they are most dangerous tools in arsenal.
Actualy I forget to mention that Jimbos is reground to full flat scandi edge, which is a long way from convex they came with. My H1 didn't came with secondary bevel, but suprisingly I just looked to BWM1 I got few days ago, and it have secondary bevel, but no matter regrinding is anyway nececary..
Generaly Fallknivens are optimized for use by nionskilled users, VG 10 is though steel and it stands rough use quite well, but thick edge just add durability on the expense of efficiency. That is ok for nonskilled user, but as the level of skill raises there are less and less chances for edge to get damaged, so it can be thinner and more efficient in what is primary task, cutting. I understand Peter reasons for thick edge, but that is one of the reasons I do not recomend Fallknivens. Regrinding them is above reach of most users.
I did that, but I was not pleased with results, and it is above skill level of usual user. My technique of regrinding them is simmilar to Jim Astions, edge is straightened and make flat without secondary bevel, shoulders of the bevel are rounded and blended into both surfaces without visuible transition, and that just the edge is convexed a little on mouse pad with emery paper. Coonvex is small, but it raise durability a lott, without loosing cutting ability. Resharpeniong and maintance is wery easy, by emery paper on mousepad, and regular maintance is just stropping on leather loaded with black magic cut compound, and polishiing with green cromium oxide. If blade gets dented, and I am on the short weekend I usualy dont repair it in wood, I wait untill I get home, and other parts will get me through without a hitch.
Full flat grounding on puukkos remove a lott of material, and thin stocked ones become too bendable and easy to break. Rounding of the shoulders leave more material in crossection, and thats why after tried other metods I stick to that way.
Myakka, great looking knives, but that is exactly the bevel I mentioned that it isn't efficient enough. It is simply too high angle, trading durability of edge for efficiency. Such knives will be much better with full convex, to the top of the blade, like Fallknivens but thinner, because current bevel is to low angle to be good for buscraft skills and any other work. I will never recomend one to my students.
B.
- Joined
- Feb 9, 2004
- Messages
- 1,447
Bogdan Ristivojevic ,
"Myakka, great looking knives, but that is exactly the bevel I mentioned that it isn't efficient enough. It is simply too high angle, trading durability of edge for efficiency. Such knives will be much better with full convex, to the top of the blade, like Fallknivens but thinner, because current bevel is to low angle to be good for buscraft skills and any other work. I will never recomend one to my students."
Too each there own. I have had great success with these out in the bush.
"Myakka, great looking knives, but that is exactly the bevel I mentioned that it isn't efficient enough. It is simply too high angle, trading durability of edge for efficiency. Such knives will be much better with full convex, to the top of the blade, like Fallknivens but thinner, because current bevel is to low angle to be good for buscraft skills and any other work. I will never recomend one to my students."
Too each there own. I have had great success with these out in the bush.