What lock for a life time? framelock or lockback?

M

myplea

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Hi,
I have a question. :)

1- What will last a life time? a frame lock? or a lockback? and is it true that lockbacks will sooner or later develop blade play? No matter how well they are made?

This thread is not about strength? its about stability. :)
Thanks.
 
Both will wear. Which lasts longer depends on the specific knife/lock and its build and materials.

If made even half-decent, both will last a very long time. Longer than you in most cases.

If anyone says one will last longer than the other they are guessing and making a dangerous overgeneralization.
 
i don't think i'm making an overgeneralization.


i've witnessed the thick, titanium lockbar creep across the blade tang on one of my *highly regarded* framelocks. and on another, i've had the lockbar break at that recessed area where the titanium bends.

in addition to this, most framelocks incorporate that ball bearing detent, which flattens out over time.


IMO:

fixed > lockback > framelock > axis lock > linerlock > slipjoint > using teeth

(i dont have any experience with compression locks, button locks, balisong locks...)
 
Do you really feel your sample size is large enough to draw a valid conclusion?

What about the people with lockbacks that have worn into disuse and framelocks that are still going strong? Are their experience less valid than yours?

I am not saying your experience is wrong. I am saying it is not enough to draw a conclusion that is not a generalization.

Because of your limited experience, do you really feel that a given framelock will wear faster than a given lockback? What if the lockback is a crap knife with a poor build quality and the framelock isn't?

There are other factors than what type of lock it is. And thus saying which will last longer just based on which type of lock is a generalization.

V8s are usually faster than V6s. But my friend has a 90s T-Bird that is slower than my turbo 4. So isn't "V8s are faster than V6s" a generalization?
 
Lock for a lifetime? That would be a fixed blade. As far as the two locks you're asking about, I'm not sure. I'd say they're about even if they're properly built. I prefer a lockback theoretically, but I don't carry one. I DO carry a Buck/Mayo 172 (a framelock) though, and a Strider GB (linerlock).

I've heard Sal from Spyderco (makers of the Manix and Chinook) that some vertical blade play is necessary, and is inevitable, but doesn't compromise the strength of the lock itself. I'd agree with that assessment, mostly, though I must also tell you that the Buck 112 that I have has never had ANY play in ANY direction.

My custom folders are either framelocks or linerlocks, so I guess when it comes down to "voting with my dollar" I'd support the liner/framelock. However, like I said earlier, in theory I prefer lockbacks.
 
Definitely depends on the knife. I would trust my Sebenza's framelock to last several lifetimes, while a Spyderco lockback I would not.
 
I'd say lockback, just cause the locking surface doesn't suffer impacts on engagement. Framelocks can last a long time, but I haven't seen one yet that can't creep visibly from a handful of forceful flicks. CRK doesn't even allow it on Sebenzas. Depends on how you use it.
 
Well, I was worried about that framelock issue myself, until I bought my blue bump. As it's AO, it's flicked hard every single time it's opened, and I might do it 15 times a day for a few months now. To my amazement it hasn't crept even a fraction of a millimeter. It's the only Ti framelock I've got..so...I can't say for all of them...but I'm WAY impressed....I've had several liner locks. Some wore across to the other side in a month (m16) and others never moved a 1/4 of a mm over several years (lightfoot shark).

I can say that the mini skirmishes and sebenzas I've played with lately have had the framelock uncomfortably far in for me. It's hardly to the other side, but it's dead in the middle--very good lockup, no doubt. If this was the way it was made (I don't know) then it's just fine, but my concern is that they've been played with (they're store demos) and have worn. In fairness to the Sebenza, it was from the mid 90s....
 
Artfully Martial said:
I can say that the mini skirmishes and sebenzas I've played with lately have had the framelock uncomfortably far in for me. It's hardly to the other side, but it's dead in the middle--very good lockup, no doubt. If this was the way it was made (I don't know) then it's just fine, but my concern is that they've been played with (they're store demos) and have worn. In fairness to the Sebenza, it was from the mid 90s....
Click to expand...
That is how they are made. Specifically the Sebenza. Some makers strive for as little contact as possible while maintaining a secure lock as it leaves the most room for wear. Chris Reeve is of the school that more contact is better. I believe the stat is that Sebenzas have 85% or 90% contact between the lock face and tang. I believe both schools are the means to the same ends.

Even the oldest and most used Sebenzas still lock up tight. Wear does not seem to be an issue. But it may be different in another 10-15 years.
 
I like the frame locks simplicity. The lock back is more mechanically complew. More things that can break. Lock backs will serve you well but not the way a PROPER frame lock will.

If you want a knife that will out last you and serve the kids just as well, get a sebenza. (or hd emerson, or strider if you want tactical)

select what you want

Buy, use, and be happy.
 
It's a tough question for sure....

Overall, I think a well made lockback will last longer.

My brother has a small lockback (I think it's a Buck but I'm not sure) that he has carried for about twenty-five years and it seems to work like new.

And knives like the Buck 110 have an outstanding reputation for longevity when not abused.

In fact, I had a Schrade LB7 that I had bought way back in 1990 and it locked up like a vault and worked perfectly until I destroyed it in one of my bouts of manic "testing" (you can read about it here if you like:http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=382463).

I think the problem with frame-locks is that not only is there wear where the tang meets the locking-bar, there is also wear where the ball-detent meets the blade (as Midget noted).
I have an old liner-lock that has a worn ball-detent that will not hold the blade closed against even minimum pressure, and while it is a liner-lock and not a frame-lock, the ball-detent works the same for both.

So, for me , it's the LOCK-BACK.
 
I'd have to take a lockback for long term durability, but the quality of the design and manufacturing are a much larger variable than the lock type itself.
 
When talking about locks for a lifetime, we should also consider how easy it is to clean the locks. An uncleaned knife with dirt in the lock will have a much shorter life span than one that is kept clean. With this said, I think the framelock is much easier to clean than a lockback. Most framelocks I have seen are open backed. All lockbacks have closed backs. I know my Sebenza is much easier to clean while assembled - disregarding the fact that it can be easily taken apart - than a pinned lockback, like a Buck 110, Spyderco Delica, etc.

allenC said:
I think the problem with frame-locks is that not only is there wear where the tang meets the locking-bar, there is also wear where the ball-detent meets the blade (as Midget noted).
I have an old liner-lock that has a worn ball-detent that will not hold the blade closed against even minimum pressure, and while it is a liner-lock and not a frame-lock, the ball-detent works the same for both.
Click to expand...

As people have already noted, a properly made frame lock doesn't wear too much. Like Hair said, even the oldest and mosts used Sebenza's are still tight. I think this is based more on quality of the manufacture more than type of lock.

Same goes for the ball-detent.

I find it curious that you felt the need to leave out the brand name of this knife. Could you please share it with us?
 
I don't really know.

What I do know is that pretty much all of the knives I buy have a lifetime warrenty, so I don't really worry about it.

Like somebody else said earlier, I think the quality of the manufaturing is a much larger factor in how a knife will last than is the style of its lock.
 
I'd bet that either will last you a lifetime of normal everyday cutting duties. The locking systems shouldn't be under all that much stress unless you are using them for something they are not designed to do (i.e. prying, supporting human weight, etc).

If a blade is designed well with a pivot bushing, any play can be removed with a new bushing rather than a new blade. I haven't seen any lockback's with such a mechanism (but I don't see why that would be all that hard to do).

I've had a Sebenza in my pocket for close to ten years of daily use, sometimes hard, but rarely for something it was not designed to do. The lock-up is as perfect as day one, the ball detent still functions perfectly, and the blade has zero play due to diligence in maintenance of the pivot bearing.

I agree with the other folks who said manufacturing quality will play a greater role in determining longevity than anything else. As they say, you get what you pay for.
 
From Django606:
When talking about locks for a lifetime, we should also consider how easy it is to clean the locks. An uncleaned knife with dirt in the lock will have a much shorter life span than one that is kept clean.
Click to expand...
I'm not sure that a clean knife will last a significant amount of time longer than an unclean one.
I have an old Victorinox Super Tinker that I never clean (except to occassionally wipe gunk off of the blade) and it is working just fine, and I've had it since about 1986.
My father has carried an old Boker 2-blade slipjoint everysince I can remember (and I'm 40 years old) and I don't recall him ever oiling or cleaning it, and it's still going strong.
Regardless, lock-backs are extremely easy to clean too.
As people have already noted, a properly made frame lock doesn't wear too much. Like Hair said, even the oldest and mosts used Sebenza's are still tight. I think this is based more on quality of the manufacture more than type of lock.
Same goes for the ball-detent.
Click to expand...
Well, we all are entitled to our opinions, but I personally have never seen ANY liner-lock or frame-lock that did not show wear in a rather short amount of time actually using the knife.
And since nearly all metal flexes to some degree, I have seen the lock-bar travel all the way across the tang of many frame-locks and liner-locks when they are subjected to hard use and hard inertial opening force.
My friend once opened his Sebenza with enough force that he had to use a piece of wood to release the lock.

I find it curious that you felt the need to leave out the brand name of this knife. Could you please share it with us?
Click to expand...
Sure.
My knife with the worn ball-detent is a Benchmade Mini-AFCK (model 812).
I'm sure that if I sent it back to Benchmade they would fix it for me, it's just one of those things I've never gotten around to doing.

I also had a Camillus EDC that had very weak blade retention, but I was not really the ball-detent, it was the locking-bar.
I was able to fix the problem by bending the locking-bar over a little to keep stronger pressure on the blade.
It made opeing the blade a bit harder, but it felt much more secure closed.

Allen.
 
allenC said:
Well, we all are entitled to our opinions, but I personally have never seen ANY liner-lock or frame-lock that did not show wear in a rather short amount of time actually using the knife.
And since nearly all metal flexes to some degree, I have seen the lock-bar travel all the way across the tang of many frame-locks and liner-locks when they are subjected to hard use and hard inertial opening force.
My friend once opened his Sebenza with enough force that he had to use a piece of wood to release the lock.
Click to expand...

I've used a Sebenza every day for close to ten years now and while it has signs of wear like scratches on the blade and the handle, the ball detent is still round and the knife locks up as well as it did the first day.

Hard inertial opening force? I suppose you must mean when people "wrist-flick" their knives open like a switchblade? It would be one hell of an impressive thumb that can open a folding knife with enough force to require a tool to release the lock!

"Wrist-flicking" ought to constitute knife abuse. It would be like loading a single round in a semi-automatic chamber, dropping the slide on it and then wondering why the extractor is broken.
 
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