What lock for a life time? framelock or lockback?

Frame locks are variable in quality. Chris Reeve (the inventor of it, by the way) makes frame locks that will last a lifetime. Some of the custom makers also make frame locks of this quality. You can also buy well made titanium frame locks from Combat Elite, Microtech, Mission and some others of that quality level. But many of the frame locks are not much better than liner locks in terms of longevity so you need to be careful.

No doubt in my mind that a top quality framelock like those mentioned above is the strongest lock available. Just be sure you are getting a top quality one.

Lockbacks, on the other hand, are very consistent in quality from maker to maker. You can buy a fairly ordinary knife with a lockback and get a strong mechanism. Lockbacks aren't quite as strong as well made frame locks but they are certainly easier to make and to buy.
 
Hard inertial opening force? I suppose you must mean when people "wrist-flick" their knives open like a switchblade?
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Yep, that's exactly what I meant.

"Wrist-flicking" ought to constitute knife abuse.
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I disagree.
Why is it abuse when a knife like a Spyderco FRN lockback can withstand all the "wrist flicking" you can give it all day long?
 
I disagree on wrist flicking also. My Kershaw bump (170 dollars) is flicked hard every single time it's opened, as it's AO, and it has zero wear....so I'd expect this from the Sebenza. Of course, I expect you'd get this from a Sebenza too, so it doesn't really matter to me.

I wrist flick (VERY hard) a lot of different knives, of different locks, makers, etc, and no problems at all. Probably thousands of times a month.
 
allenC said:
I disagree.
Why is it abuse when a knife like a Spyderco FRN lockback can withstand all the "wrist flicking" you can give it all day long?
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When the blade pivot wears out and you have play in the blade is why. Check your pivot lock-up, if you are habitually flicking, the blade will have some play in it (if not now, it will eventually). My Endura certainly did after flicking it for a few years (that is why it sits in a box at home), so did an AFCK (a much more expensive loss).

I could "flick" the blade on my Sebenza open, but why would I want to put undue stress on the pivot bearing, the stop pin and the lockbar for no good reason?

The lockback bar may be fine, but the pivot is not designed for high speed-high torque "flicking". If you want to open a knife fast, why not buy something designed for it like a gravity knife, assisted opener or switchblade?

Incidentally, here is a quote from Chris Reeve Knives about wrist-flicking in their FAQ on "How to Clean a Sebenza":

"Please note that excessive flicking of the blade will also produce a rough action. Continuous wrist flicking will eventually damage the lock because the stop pin and back of the blade are not designed for that sort of continual shock."
 
Anything mechanical can fail. I have seen some inexpensive lockbacks hold up to amazing amounts of use and abuse over many years, however, so I might lean that way.

I doubt there's anyone on these forums who's ready to say they've bought their last knife, so I wouldn't worry about finding a knife that will last a lifetime. In fact the only ones I own that I feel pretty sure are going to outlive me are the ones I don't use much. :)
 
It seems to me that problems related to flicking the knife are the result of bad craftsmanship and not a user problem. The inability to make a knife as tough as my Kershaw for twice as much money is unacceptable.

For all I know (and I actually believe this currently) the Sebenza can and will take lots of flicking and there aren't any poor craftsmanship problems to speak of. I think this is the case, despite his warning, because the few Sebenzas I have handled did seem to be of excellent quality.

But if it does turn that flicking is a problem for the Sebenza, then it greatly lowers my opinion, and we should probably trade our Sebenzas for "lesser" framelocks that clearly can take flicking for a much lower price.

I CAN say, quite definitely, my blue bump has been hard flicked in excess of a thousand times without a fraction of a mm movement (I pay VERY close attention...I'm kind of obsessed with lockbar position). We should expect just as much from any high end framelock....

Alright, now that I've offended, what, 3000 members, I'd probably leave it to the experts. Just to clear a few things up before the yelling begins:
I like Sebenzas
I think Sebenzas CAN probably be flicked with no more wear than my Bump
 
It is not the lock that is the problem with flicking, it is the rest of the knife (blade pivot and stop pin (if your knife uses one) that are subject to undue wear.

Your Kershaw bump isn't likely to have a problem as it was designed for the SpeedSafe system. (Switchblades and gravity knives obviously also have no problem with high-speed and high-torque opening) Most other knives are not designed for this.

Incidentally, 1000 times is opening a knife three times a day for roughly one year (which is fairly minimal knife use).

My Sebenza has been opened in excess of 10,000 times with the only evident wear in finish. The lock-up and blade movement are still practically zero.
 
Midget said:
most framelocks incorporate that ball bearing detent, which flattens out over time.
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This is why CRK uses a ceramic ball rather than steel. Reinforces the idea that lock quality also needs to be taken into consideration and not just lock type.

Hair said:
That is how they are made. Specifically the Sebenza. Some makers strive for as little contact as possible while maintaining a secure lock as it leaves the most room for wear. Chris Reeve is of the school that more contact is better. I believe the stat is that Sebenzas have 85% or 90% contact between the lock face and tang. I believe both schools are the means to the same ends.
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Just wanted to clear this up that CRK's spec for lock contact is 50%-75%. I don't think that Chris simply thinks the more contact the better - but rather enough contact for a safe lock (which would be 50%) but not too much that it will not have room to wear (over 75%).

Lemon328i said:
My Sebenza has been opened in excess of 10,000 times with the only evident wear in finish. The lock-up and blade movement are still practically zero.
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Mine has been opened about this many times. For a couple of years I opened and closed it 20-30 times per day everyday. Lock movement has been extremely low.. maybe 5%. The wear rate seems to slow the more it wears, which would make sense since there is more contact.
 
Because there is no real need to flick it other than to satisfy someones IMHO childish needs. If the maker of the knife says dont flick it, then dont flick it, dont have a tantrum fit and squweem and squween until you are sick.
 
The maker of a knife has got no business telling me what I can and cannot do with my 350+ dollar knife. He may make a suggestion, but he'd better word it like that.

well, if it's true flicking Sebenzas hurts them, I suppose it's unfortunate that they can't make one with the quality of a Kershaw that's half the price.

But, I'll save judgement for the Sebenza until I own one. I'm betting they'll be just fine under flicking. I can't imagine why it would be less reliable than my 40 dollar knives...
 
He has if ther is evidence you flicked it if you send it in to be repaired becaus you just had to abuse it.

Stay with Kershaw and leave the rest of us that can follow a simple engineers reccomendation with the Sebbies.
 
Artfully Martial said:
Well if the Bump can be strengthened for flicking, why not a sebenza or any other framelock of comparable price?
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You CAN flick it. You just dont need to.

If your in for instance an SD situation by all means flick your sebenza. But short of that or some other life threatening situation there is absolutley no need to flick a knife open.

If you want a frame-lock you can flick. Get an HD emerson. The wave is way more destructive to a knife than AO will ever be.

The sebenza is a great knife, and a great user. I don't think anyone wants to dispute that (if you do keep your mouth shut, because you'll only start trouble:jerkit: ), But its design is not intended for flicking. With a knife like a Stainless endura flicking (or chicago opening) works fine. But you have to remember that the flicking will not be as hard on a lock-back due to the constant pressure on the blade due to the locking mechanism.

Another thing is that lockbacks use the back of the handle as a stop for the blade, the Sebenza uses a stop pin. This will wear down faster than a full slab of steel or Ti if abused. Pins instead of backs are usually used on frame-locks for easy assembly/dis-assembley, cleaning, reduced weight, and (depending on who you are) aesthetics.
 
There's no need to flick a knife, there's no need to buy a Sebenza, either. People can do whatever they like with their money and their property.
 
Do whatever you want with it when you get a Sebenza (hopefully never.)

When you have to pay a fee to get something done to it, don't complain. Of course Chris Reeve cannot tell you what you can and cannot do with your knife. And he obviously did not do that. He merely stated that flicking a Sebenza should not be done and is considered a harmful practice.

Please don't start comparing your Bump to a Sebenza. Stick with your Kershaws, and we will stick with our CRKs.
 
I don't even see why you would want to compare the two, the Sebenza is a titanium framelock knife with an S30V blade, and the Bump is totally different.
 
Actually the Bump is a titanium framelock with an S30V blade... :confused: You might be thinking of the Spec Bump. (G-10 + thumbstud lock)
 
It's not like I'm inhibiting anyone from buying a Sebenza...I almost bought one a couple days ago...I'm sure they can take the "abuse" just as well as any other titanium framelock, although it sounds like we'll never find out.

Does anyone with a mini skirmish, bradley, mayo etc have the problems that the sebenza apparently does? For that matter, is there anyone that actually flicks their sebenza?

Alright, I've entered the sebenza zone, so there's not really any reason for me to go any farther. The response to my problems is consistently "we don't WANT to flick." Alright, well, I do, so I have a problem and it's not going to get solved here. I guess I'll go buy a Bradley.

Before I drop this thread for awhile (maybe someone will successfully bate me into saying more?), I'll outline my opinions clearly:

I think framelocks are comparable to lockbacks in longevity
I think any well designed knife can be flicked without problem

Now...where to get a nice Alias II.
 
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