What makes zero tolerance so tough?

Überich;9471327 said:
@Pilot1: you don't miss anything not having seen it. i tried to illustrate how small the effect of marketing actually is. ok actually it was worth a short giggle. felt like i was to unbox a little toy-gun. i actually like how esee sends out their knives though: reduced to what's important.
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Well we do like our guns. Although we can have the real thing. :D

I'll have to go dig the boxes out and look at them, you have my curiosity pegged. I like the ESEE packaging too, plus their sheaths. I'd rather have them put the money into the products, not the package.
 
Here is an image of the new packaging. We did remove the word "combat" as well.

PKG2010ZT-1.jpg
 
Überich;9468013 said:
i must admit i found the packaging of the zt0302 ridiculous.
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Packaging? Who gives a flip about packaging???
I thought we were discussing knives here.
Packaging...pah.
 
@ Thomas W:
ahhh, much better! looks stylish even! any wallpaper available? ;)
that really suits the beauty that is the 030x much better.
one question though: what's my mission - should i choose to accept it? (to get another one just for the new package? :D)

(i hope no one is offended by that. i know there are people out there for whom the mission is serious - my full respect to them)
 
I think the name "Zero Tolerance" is what makes them so tough.

It just sounds so angry. No compassion. No benevolence.
It's like the knife is screaming at you.
I WILL NOT TOLERATE YOU... DIE NOW PIG !!!
 
I think a lot of people are missing the point of the question. It's obvious they're "designed to be tough." That's their marketing gimmick. Saying that they're tough because they're designed to be tough provides no useful information, and is barely better than a tautology.

WHAT aspects of the design make them so tough?

So far, I've gathered that the liners, handle material, pivot, and blade are all thicker. The blade has a more aggressive grind to maximize toughness (at the cost of pure slicing ability?). I also gather they're very impressive in person.

Basically, I'm after a significant level of detail here. I want the physics and chemistry here. If you're going to say that they've got some sort of a heat treat, explain the details. What's the HRC measurement? How does that affect the toughness of the folder positively? Where is the best balance between hardness, and reducing brittleness?

More, when we're talking about toughness, what exactly do we mean? I gather that toughness means different things for different people. Are we talking the knife's ability to survive stupid tests that have nothing to do with real world stresses? Or are we talking about a knife you can depend on as a survival knife when you really need it to be dependable? I have trouble thinking of any situations where I would be banging on the spine of my knife with a hammer, for instance, barring batoning, and that's not exactly a practical use of a knife either, and in any case, batoning isn't likely going to affect the lock.

As far as lock strength goes, I'd like a lock to be able to support more weight than I could conceivably put on it, no matter how I stress it (given a realistic survival situation). I'd be interested to see how the zero tolerance knives stack up. If a liner lock can't support more than 150 pounds...well, that strikes me as a potential weak point.

And please. Stop with the Cold Steel "discussion." If you want to debate the relative merits (or lack thereof) of Cold Steel, start your own thread. The only reason I would want to see CS in here is if there's a specific model that you think compares to ZT in terms of toughness.
 
These threads are always contentious. I gave my view of the whole subject. Some agree, some dont. Bottom line is 'toughness' is a difficult thing to measure, for the reasons I outlined in my earlier post - 99% of the tasks a knife is required for will never test the knife to its limits. So I guess you have to ask yourself: do I really need such a 'tough' folder? Am I likely to find myself trapped in a 'survival' situation where the knife will be called upon to perform above and beyond the normal call of duty? If the answer is YES, then get one. I'm sure they will do the job you ask of them.

As to the Cold Steel comparisons, you asked about lock strength. The Tri-Ad has been tested rigorously both by CS and by independent parties and shown to be extremely strong, therefore its perfectly legit to throw it into the mix. You might say it is the yard stick against which everything else must be measured.

crimsonfalcon07 said:
I think a lot of people are missing the point of the question. It's obvious they're "designed to be tough." That's their marketing gimmick. Saying that they're tough because they're designed to be tough provides no useful information, and is barely better than a tautology.

WHAT aspects of the design make them so tough?

So far, I've gathered that the liners, handle material, pivot, and blade are all thicker. The blade has a more aggressive grind to maximize toughness (at the cost of pure slicing ability?). I also gather they're very impressive in person.

Basically, I'm after a significant level of detail here. I want the physics and chemistry here. If you're going to say that they've got some sort of a heat treat, explain the details. What's the HRC measurement? How does that affect the toughness of the folder positively? Where is the best balance between hardness, and reducing brittleness?

More, when we're talking about toughness, what exactly do we mean? I gather that toughness means different things for different people. Are we talking the knife's ability to survive stupid tests that have nothing to do with real world stresses? Or are we talking about a knife you can depend on as a survival knife when you really need it to be dependable? I have trouble thinking of any situations where I would be banging on the spine of my knife with a hammer, for instance, barring batoning, and that's not exactly a practical use of a knife either, and in any case, batoning isn't likely going to affect the lock.

As far as lock strength goes, I'd like a lock to be able to support more weight than I could conceivably put on it, no matter how I stress it (given a realistic survival situation). I'd be interested to see how the zero tolerance knives stack up. If a liner lock can't support more than 150 pounds...well, that strikes me as a potential weak point.

And please. Stop with the Cold Steel "discussion." If you want to debate the relative merits (or lack thereof) of Cold Steel, start your own thread. The only reason I would want to see CS in here is if there's a specific model that you think compares to ZT in terms of toughness.
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Thomas W said:
Sorry for the ZT tough thread drift here, but this low dollar high volume business is a tricky one. It's not a category that a manufacture can automatically have success in. You can't just bring in some imports and expect to get placement. It's a very difficult category that can burn you bad if you don't know what your doing.

When I said earlier that we're all good at something, but not everything, there's a lot to be learned from that. You really have to stick with what you know cause the minute you get all wide-eyed and want a bigger piece (in this example high volume import business), that's the day you'll be making up an excuse on why these knives are no longer available, and crawling back to what you were when you started. It's funny and sad at the same time. All the major manufactures have fallen in this way before, be it in one specific category, or a full line of knives.

On topic, the premium side of the business has the same challenges. To get a new brand to the status of ZT was difficult to blaze. We struggled early, didn't make money, had 2nd thoughts...Ultimately we took it long term and it's work out, but that's not to say there wasn't tense moments.

I do believe that overbuilt has its place, but again it's not for everyone, it never was intended to be.
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I have not always been a huge Kershaw/ZT fan but definitely not a hater. It is because of dead honest posts like this that I will always check out the product. If it at all appeals to me I will have no hesitation buying it. Thomas, your presence hear is very much appreciated.

Whitty
 
Buffalohump said:
As to the Cold Steel comparisons, you asked about lock strength. The Tri-Ad has been tested rigorously both by CS and by independent parties and shown to be extremely strong, therefore its perfectly legit to throw it into the mix. You might say it is the yard stick against which everything else must be measured.
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I am fine with discussion of the Tri-Ad lock when it's actually about the topic at hand. The vast majority of the CS talk has been rather puerile off-topic squabbling about the brand itself. Discussion about whether or not CS is the most bashed brand or not has nothing to do with how tough ZT knives are. Arguing about whether or not there was bashing has nothing to do with it either. Discussion about how awesome Andrew Demko is for inventing the Tri-Ad lock is not helpful.

If we're going to talk about Cold Steel, it would be far more interesting and relevant to me to do a side-by-side comparison of a CS product with a reputation for durability against a ZT product. I have very little interest in purchasing any more CS products, until or unless I end up having more money than I know what to do with (one can always hope).

I have no problem with the thread being contentious. I do prefer to see well-thought out and detailed responses as compared to vague generalizations or off-topic squabbling. There have been many very helpful and interesting responses, which I think are very profitable, and I hate to see those lose their emphasis because others want to fight about CS. It's been really fantastic to hear about the knives from the perspective of the manufacturer, and I'm really glad Thomas W has been chiming in here.

I guess at this point, I'm wondering if there's more to it than just saying that ZT knives have thicker stress-bearing parts.

I mean, if we're going to talk locks, I personally am of the opinion that the locks that ZT seems to use are among the weaker types of locks design-wise. The Tri-Ad and Spyderco BBL are the leaders in lock strength IMO, and can support a lot more stress than a liner lock. I have no experience with the Hawk lock, so I have no opinions about that. They do have the advantage of simplicity.
 
Yes, agreed. The squabbling is annoying...

Re: lock strength. Its a tricky one. Perception rather than reality often plays a part. For example, you consider the BBL to be one of the best locks. However, the Manix 2 was stress tested by a member here and it failed quite easily. Cue a great deal of wailing and gnashing of teeth! There are a lot of Manix 2 fans here and they werent happy with the outcome, but there it was, on video, for all to see. I believe there was a ZT also tested in that series and it did quite well, if memory serves. There isnt a great deal of side by side testing done which would declare, once and for all, which is the best lock out there. The Tri-Ad is one that HAS been extensively tested (abused) and it held up very well. There it is.....

crimsonfalcon07 said:
I am fine with discussion of the Tri-Ad lock when it's actually about the topic at hand. The vast majority of the CS talk has been rather puerile off-topic squabbling about the brand itself. Discussion about whether or not CS is the most bashed brand or not has nothing to do with how tough ZT knives are. Arguing about whether or not there was bashing has nothing to do with it either. Discussion about how awesome Andrew Demko is for inventing the Tri-Ad lock is not helpful.

If we're going to talk about Cold Steel, it would be far more interesting and relevant to me to do a side-by-side comparison of a CS product with a reputation for durability against a ZT product. I have very little interest in purchasing any more CS products, until or unless I end up having more money than I know what to do with (one can always hope).

I have no problem with the thread being contentious. I do prefer to see well-thought out and detailed responses as compared to vague generalizations or off-topic squabbling. There have been many very helpful and interesting responses, which I think are very profitable, and I hate to see those lose their emphasis because others want to fight about CS. It's been really fantastic to hear about the knives from the perspective of the manufacturer, and I'm really glad Thomas W has been chiming in here.

I guess at this point, I'm wondering if there's more to it than just saying that ZT knives have thicker stress-bearing parts.

I mean, if we're going to talk locks, I personally am of the opinion that the locks that ZT seems to use are among the weaker types of locks design-wise. The Tri-Ad and Spyderco BBL are the leaders in lock strength IMO, and can support a lot more stress than a liner lock. I have no experience with the Hawk lock, so I have no opinions about that. They do have the advantage of simplicity.
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Angus McGunnigl said:
I think the name "Zero Tolerance" is what makes them so tough.

It just sounds so angry. No compassion. No benevolence.
It's like the knife is screaming at you.
I WILL NOT TOLERATE YOU... DIE NOW PIG !!!
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I LOLed pretty hard at this.

Seriously, people on this forum just take themselves so seriously sometimes.
 
crimsonfalcon07 said:
I guess at this point, I'm wondering if there's more to it than just saying that ZT knives have thicker stress-bearing parts.
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i don't know what else you expect: engineers with a science degree to hang out here and talk about how they tested a requested knife in the lab?
i guess it doesn't get any better than subjective views generated from actual use and videos of actual (ab)use. and of course perception plays a
much bigger part than reality. every serious scientist will tell you so as well by the way.
everybody develops an impression/ feeling (not scientific insight!) about what makes a knife better than others they can compare it to. just sit down with your granny and give her two knifes - she will be able to tell which one's better in no time...

but: if you can see a pattern emerge in how people (who like to own and use knives!!!) respond to a certain product that's a good indication of how reality might play out in key scenarios for your intentions with it (considering you're a knife-enthusiast - if you're a woodworker i'd suggest a woodworker-forum for feedback).
so for this specific crowd i think you could see this pattern for the 030x series: overbuilt, high end materials + fit & finish, tanklike to seemingly indestructible (at least no reports of) and not the supreme cheese-cutting option out there while being too heavy for a few of the feeble folks.
oh yeah and of course COMBAT and SERIOUS and ZERO F***ING TOLERANCE! (sorry, i just don't want to be too serious - life is too short to be)
 
Überich;9472625 said:
...
oh yeah and of course COMBAT and SERIOUS and ZERO F***ING TOLERANCE! (sorry, i just don't want to be too serious - life is too short to be)
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And that is the point of why I like hard use knives in addition to uber thin slicers. Life is too short to to be content with just light, thin, pocket scalpels. I carry both slicer and "tough" folder to cover most possibilities. And besides I don't cut enough cardboard and tires that using my ZT 301 is still fun, and the thick blade becomes a serious disadvantage.
 
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