What should the Knifemaker's Guild do?

Kohai999

Kohai999

Second Degree Cutter
Joined
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Messages
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Les Robertson said:
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My understanding is the that show had 124 tables. In the late 80's to early 90's the show had over 400 tables.

The Guild Show went from being the premier show in the world to a nice regional show.

A little back ground on me. I attended my first Guild Show in 1986 and attended every year till 2005. I am an Honorary member and was an associate member for 12 years. For several years I was one of the judges of the work submitted Probationary and Voting member hopefuls. Matter of fact myself and Bob Neal were the first two judges of the Guild Awards to the custom knife makers.

I do like the idea of the show moving to Louisville, easier to get to for most people.

It is admirable that you are promoting the Guild.

However, cheer-leading alone is not going to get this show back on track.

What are the future plans to return the show to the prominence it once held?
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In another thread we had Mike Carter show a great deal of support and positive wishes to the Knifemaker's Guild and specifically, this year's show.

There were counterpoints as above, from two industry biggies, J. Bruce Voyles and Les Robertson. While I thought that the thread deviated massively from the original intent, that is always a risk on the internets forums.

So, here is a new thread, dedicated to what the Guild could do to improve it's general standing in today's knife world.

I'll put in my suggestion, if they don't do it already.....print up show postcards at least three months before the show, and request that makers send these postcards to at least twenty of their customers, as a personal invitation to attend.

I also think that the Guild should actively recruit new/young makers.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
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Has the era of the mega-show passed? I know that some people are talking about Blade having too many exhibitors and not enough warm bodies paying to come in. Of course Blade is a different animal in that you have all things knife related there as opposed to just customs and supplies. Is it possible with the internet and the increased number of smaller shows has made it difficult if not impossible for any show to get back to the size that the Guild Show was when it was in Orlando the first time? Unlike with gun shows, knifemakers and dealers can market, sell and deliver their products in ways that are most convenient to their customers with little regard for the draconian legalities associated with firearms transactions. I have also heard it said by more than one maker that in today's market, the optimum size for a major show may be somewhere in the 150 table range.
 
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Imagine what a show could be like if all the top makers were to attend.

Stock removal, Forged, Tactical, Slipjoints.

P.S. Other than the the Blade Show, which has really become too large. Still my favorite though.
 
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I do agree that around 150 tables is real good. As far as if all the best makers at one show. If all the duck's were not lined up nothing at all remember Santa Barbra. I heard that ONLY the best makers showed.
 
I've been told by two clients that they wouldn't attend the Louieville, Ky. show again because there were to mant tach knives & far to few quality/traditional knives. FWIW
 
I only have one suggestion, if the Guild Show wanted to be the biggest and best show in the states, it should set the show dates and reserve the place at least 5 years out. Then all the smaller regional shows would be able to work around the dates and not have conflicts. They may already be doing this, but I do not know. I for one would like just the custom makers and suppliers there. Too many folks show up for the assembly line knives and the crowds for that business distracts for a custom collector such as I.

Just my .02, know it is not worth much,

Best Regards,;)
JIm,
 
Thank you for starting a separate discussion about this. I hope it can stay focused and produce some good ideas.

I have mixed feelings about the turning the Guild Show back into into a 400 table show even if it can be done. Getting the venue and that many table holders to fill it one thing. Getting enough spending customers through the door to make it a worthwhile show for everybody is quite another thing.

Everybody compares to the Blade Show but it's hard to compare. Blade is a different animal. They have done a great job building it up to be THE annual knife show. I don't think any other show will compare to Blade unless the new management just completely screws it up. Some feel Blade has gotten too big.

All of the shows have been off this year. Is it the economy or are shows just losing interest? Nobody really knows. There are more shows than ever, Not too many years ago there were only 3 or 4 really serious knife shows. Now there is a big one every month and dozens more smaller regional and club shows. There are only so many buyers and they aren't going to go to all of them and in many cases they are going to choose the closer ones to save on travel expenses. After all, you can buy another knife with the travel money you save.

I think the number one thing the Guild Show needs to do is a much better job informing the public of what the Guild is and what it means to be a Guild member. I often find that even regular collectors don't know that makers have to be recommended for membership by 4 voting members who judge their work to be good enough. They don't know that members have to have their work inspected and judged by a panel of voting members at least twice to earn voting membership.

They generally do not know about the Guilds function as a mediator and how they monitor the business practices of it's members. I was talking to a serious big money collector just prior to the Guild Show and he knew nothing about that part of the Guild and was quite impressed when I told him about it.

I think it makes a difference when people realize that it's not just a matter of paying your money and getting a membership card. It's sets Guild members apart when people realize they have earned thier stripes.

I have also suggested that the Guild start rating system comparable to the JS and MS ratings that the ABS uses. I never liked the "probationary" title. It's sounds like I did something wrong. I would like to see something like Journeyman, Voting Member, and Master Knifemaker. Of course establishing the criteria to earn those degrees might be an impossible task.

Edited to add: I agree 110% about actively recruiting new/younger members.

Mike
 
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What the Guild should do depends on what it wants to be.

Personally, my dream show would be one with the 200 - 300 best makers in the world, with no country bias, no style bias, and each year a completely new vote (i.e., no tenure). This would be a show driven by collectors and dealers, and each maker would be required to have at least 2 knives for sale at the opening of the doors.

As a collector, the Guild is completely irrelevant to me. I don't even know - or care - what the various membership levels mean. In any organization, tenure (rank acquired once and for all) is a f***ed up proposition.
 
Joss said:
What the Guild should do depends on what it wants to be.
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Guild.jpg


Edited to add: From the Guild Website:

HISTORY

The Knifemakers' Guild traces its early beginning to February 1970 when a gentleman named A.G. Russell secured tables at the Sahara Gun Show in Las Vegas, Nevada and invited several knifemakers to display knives there. The show proved profitable in many ways, and the knifemakers parted, eager to get together again.

Later that year, eleven knifemakers met in Tulsa, Oklahoma to form the Knifemakers' Guild: John Applebaugh, Walter "Blackie" Collins, John Nelson Cooper, Dan Dennehy, T.M. Dowell, Chubby Hueske, Jon Kirk, R.W. Loveless, John Owens, Jim Pugh, and G.W. Stone. R.W. Loveless was elected Secretary for a year, and A.G Russell was made Honorary President.

The purposes of the Guild were, and continue to be: to promote custom knives and knifemakers, to assist the knifemaker technically, to encourage ethical and professional business conduct, and to sponsor an annual business meeting and knife show.
 
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I want to preface this post by saying that I was a probationary member twice. Once in 1997 and again in 2005. I did my two year probation in both cases and in 1997 and asked for an extension. In that period, I had the death of my wife’s Mother and Father. I got the run around from the board of that time and eventually gave up. Frank Centofante and Allen Elishewitz asked me to reapply in approx 2005 when Bruce took over and I believe those were the worse two shows in the Guild history. (not because of Bruce, but the aftermath of the big blow up) You could have went bowling mid day on Saturday down the aisles and all you would have hit was two knifemaker’s who were talking to each other.. I did my two years again and the year that I was supposed to go for my voting status, I became ill. I tried to make contact with a couple of the board members to get an extension while I was ill and never heard for anyone again. No one ever followed up on my situation to say hello, kiss my ass or anything. I guess part of that was my fault, but when you are ill, you just don’t feel like making all the calls to only get the run around. It would have been nice for someone to say hey you are only one year away from getting your voting status, what can we do to help? I will not go through the probationary period again especially since they are admitting ABS Mastersmiths with no wait. I have proved myself twice.

I personally would like to see the Guild Board active on these boards instead of a couple members who can not answer all of the questions. Mike does a fine job, but he still is not in power.
Also, if you limit the show to 150 people, why do you want more that two hundred members??
The only reason you saw a few of the top names at the show is because some of them only go once every four years as required by the by laws.

I also think that the Guild and its board should buy a sub forum on each of the large internet forums as it appears no one visits their forum. They could answer a lot of questions and receive some good feedback. It is also cheap advertising.

P.S. I even called a former President of the Guild to ask a question regarding the show and was snapped at like I was child. He told me that he was busy getting ready for the show and didn't have time for me.
I love what the Guild stands for and would be proud to be a member, but I don't want to jump through hoops to do it.
BB
 
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Great question Steve, and a difficult one to answer and not sound like another complaint.

I was a probationary member back in 2001. It was the edge of the abyss for the Guild at that time, and I had a negative issue brewing with a long time Guild member that caused a lot of tension for me. It ended up feeling like a constant drain , and I didn't need the drama that seemed to be at every turn. I felt like a freshman in high school who had to watch my back or someone would use the Guild to hurt my business and reputation. I have always used CNC machines in my business, and that was an ongoing debate as well, even though I have always been open and honest about my use of the technology.

I decided to put my efforts into the ABS. I had just received my MS stamp and there were many avenues to help the organization and furthur my business.

So the last three words in the previous sentence bring me to my next statement. Belonging to the Guild has to offer me something other than another show. I have to look at it as an investment, and it HAS to have a return. That being said, I don't know what the Guild currently offers it's members as I haven't looked into it in some time.

A lot of attention is given to catering to collectors with different show formats, locations and events. In the end, what I hear from collectors more than anything is they want the buying experience and dealings with the maker to be enjoyable. Sadly, this is not always the case. Many makers are VERY poor businessmen, and I am not excluding myself from that statement. I have certainly made my share of mistakes.

So, to bring this post to conclusion, If the Guild could educate makers on proper business practices, planning production, scheduling work to be able to pay bills AND have knives at shows without looking like a vagrant begging for change because you have a months worth of work on the table and NEED a payday NOW. Show makers how to under-promise and over-deliver while feeding their kids, and you will have happy makers, happy collectors and many more collectors getting involved in knives because it is fun.

I've been a full time maker for 12 yrs now, and learning to run my business has kicked my ass on a regular basis. I think the most benefit to the entire industry would be in business education for makers. ( don't read into this as an ethics enforcement panel, I would run screaming into the night from such a thing) Back when I started making knives, being a Guild member was like the Good Housekeeping seal of knifemaking. From my perspective, when that image was lost, the Guild took a nosedive.

Steve, you can certainly identify with this analogy...back in the 70's and earlier, when someone had earned a Dan ranking in martial arts, it meant something. Now, it means your parents paid for the 18 month "Black Belt package" at the local Tae Kwon Don't "studio" and took you to class often enough to fullfill the contract. It lost it's credability and now only means "I can get my butt whipped with more style that before". So where is the benefit of acknowledging the accomplishment of earning rank in a true system ???
 
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Absolutely outstanding post Bailey. Bravo!
The business side is SO important to being a successful knifemaker and giving collectors what THEY want is SO important to a successful show.

At the risk of getting off topic. Your final point made me chuckle as it's so true.
In regard to self protection, there's a lot to be said for the old street and back alley training in hand to hand as opposed to so many of today's "black belt" programs.
 
Well I am not real good at this type of thing I some times tend to put my foot in my mouth but here goes. I have not been to a Guild show in quite awhile so I don't know what caliber of maker is getting in the Guild today so maybe before we all say to much we should take a look at some of the work because I tell you this for sure collectors are a whole lot smarter than they were at one time and if the Guild is taking on members for a head count and not good Quality knifemakers I assure you they are not going to make it.I know when I got in the Guild I think if it had not been Mel Pardue They were not going to pass me because all I had was damascus knives and they said it would hide poor grinds I thought then they were on there way to really becoming the cream of the crop . So before this thread gets ugly lets stop and LOOK at makers knives that are getting in the Guild today and see were there headed. I truly hope it's in the right direction because speaking as a full time maker the fall of any knife organization is not a good thing because it will also take some collectors with it.
 
Here's a perspective from someone with no background in knives. I've just now become interested- both my small knife collection and my post count reflect that.

One of the biggest shortcomings I saw regarding this Guild show was that it didn't seem like it was marketed to me. Of course all the hard-core knife junkies will know about this year's show in advance, but your average knife enthusiast may not realize it is coming to town. Or even worse, may not realize they are welcome.

I noticed in one of the knife publications that the Guild was having a show in Louisville. I thought to myself, "That's an hour from here, I should go check it out." I checked Google, found the show's website, and looked it over. It did not say in one place that it was open to the public. I even read the show rules agreement, watched the video, an looked at the pictures.

Everything made it look like it was a show for Guild members to show each other what they've been working on. A once-a-year chance to get together. But NOT a show where I can go to buy a knife.

Since then, I've gotten in contact with Jim Adams from BlackToe Knives here in KY for my first handmade knife. It would have been great to meet some people face to face at the show... I probably would have left with a new knife that day.

So the biggest suggestion I can make is to make the Guild show seem more accessible to the public.

Thanks,
Carlos
 
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GPtuners said:
Here's a perspective from someone with no background in knives. I've just now become interested- both my small knife collection and my post count reflect that.

One of the biggest shortcomings I saw regarding this Guild show was that it didn't seem like it was marketed to me. Of course all the hard-core knife junkies will know about this year's show in advance, but your average knife enthusiast may not realize it is coming to town. Or even worse, may not realize they are welcome.

I noticed in one of the knife publications that the Guild was having a show in Louisville. I thought to myself, "That's an hour from here, I should go check it out." I checked Google, found the show's website, and looked it over. It did not say in one place that it was open to the public. I even read the show rules agreement, watched the video, an looked at the pictures.

Everything made it look like it was a show for Guild members to show each other what they've been working on. A once-a-year chance to get together. But NOT a show where I can go to buy a knife.

Since then, I've gotten in contact with Jim Adams from BlackToe Knives here in KY for my first handmade knife. It would have been great to meet some people face to face at the show... I probably would have left with a new knife that day.

So the biggest suggestion I can make is to make the Guild show seem more accessible to the public.

Thanks,
Carlos
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I will take the hit on that one as I designed the ads that we ran in the magazines, on the buses and in our TV spots. Your point is taken and if I am involved with the advertising next year I will make sure that we do a better job of making it clear that the show is open to the public.

I have no control over the website but I will make sure the board is aware of your message.

Thank you.

Mike
 
GPtuners said:
Here's a perspective from someone with no background in knives. I've just now become interested- both my small knife collection and my post count reflect that.

One of the biggest shortcomings I saw regarding this Guild show was that it didn't seem like it was marketed to me. Of course all the hard-core knife junkies will know about this year's show in advance, but your average knife enthusiast may not realize it is coming to town. Or even worse, may not realize they are welcome.

I noticed in one of the knife publications that the Guild was having a show in Louisville. I thought to myself, "That's an hour from here, I should go check it out." I checked Google, found the show's website, and looked it over. It did not say in one place that it was open to the public. I even read the show rules agreement, watched the video, an looked at the pictures.

Everything made it look like it was a show for Guild members to show each other what they've been working on. A once-a-year chance to get together. But NOT a show where I can go to buy a knife.

Since then, I've gotten in contact with Jim Adams from BlackToe Knives here in KY for my first handmade knife. It would have been great to meet some people face to face at the show... I probably would have left with a new knife that day.

So the biggest suggestion I can make is to make the Guild show seem more accessible to the public.

Thanks,
Carlos
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Unfortunately, we don't hear much from new collectors in this type of discussion as many probably feel they don't know enough on the subject to state an opinion.
You make a good point as one thing I believe we will all agree on is that welcoming and getting "new collectors" to the shows benefit us ALL.

Your participating here is a move in the right direction in becoming more informed and feeling more welcomed into the custom knife community. You may also want to look into the CKCA. Visit our website as there's much there for both the new and seasoned collector.

I have found the "collectors corner" concept that the ABS Expo uses very beneficial to collectors, makers and the show in general. Perhaps this is something the Guild could look into.

Shows are MUCH more fun for the collector if you know other collectors at the show.
 
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