What should the Knifemaker's Guild do?

I'm all for the Guild succeeding. Losing a knife org will not do any of us any good.

But, I sure hope the Guild board is listening to this. If the public doesn't know they're invited, then the show is in trouble.

This is a very productive thread!
 
Mike,
Carlos was not the only one to think that. The weekend before the show a lady from Missouri called me and asked did they have to be a member to go I thought that was strange but I guess not.
 
Thanks everyone for participating, and I would like to apologize to Mike Carter for my part in derailing his thread expressing deep satisfaction in his attainment of Voting Member status in the Guild, and on having a fun show.

The point of this thread is to make HELPFUL suggestions, no to be a bashfest. Everyone is behaving nicely, and it should remain that way. While there is no personal "fear" of Guild leadership, I respect that they are trying to do a good job and have no wish to contribute to the frustration factor. As one of the founders and Board members of the CKCA, I fully understand the frustrations that go along with a leadership position. It is my hope that they take note of this discussion, and "listen". They are of course under no obligation to do so, and my expectations are low.

When I started collecting knives in the late 1980's the Guild was THE organization to belong to....and I did ask makers if they were members....it didn't stop me from buying if they were not, but doing business with Guild knifemakers was important to me. I liked what the organization stood for.

I tried to get my business, High Hat Knives accepted for Associate Guild membership in a conversation with Guild President Frank Centofante in 1994, but was regretfully told that there were no openings available at that time. We never inquired again, and that is the only personal negative experience with the Guild I have to share.

jdm61 said:
Has the era of the mega-show passed? I know that some people are talking about Blade having to many exhibitors and not enough warm bodies paying to come in....I have also heard it said by more than one maker that in today's market, the optimum size for a major show may be somewhere in the 150 table range.
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It is my hope that the Knifemaker's Guild could comfortably build up both the membership and the show to accomodate 250-300 excellent makers. I would consider that a good sized premium, but not "boutique" show(AKI, Solvang, Plaza....). I believe this is an attainable number with hard work, and is reasonable to manage, as well as making it desireable for both makers and collectors to attend.

Cliff Parker said:
Well I am not real good at this type of thing I some times tend to put my foot in my mouth but here goes. I have not been to a Guild show in quite awhile so I don't know what caliber of maker is getting in the Guild today so maybe before we all say to much we should take a look at some of the work because I tell you this for sure collectors are a whole lot smarter than they were at one time and if the Guild is taking on members for a head count and not good Quality knifemakers I assure you they are not going to make it.
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Cliff, I think it is entirely possible to have a room full of makers who make technically perfect knives that look butt ugly, and have seen it at every show I attended. Things like blade-to-handle ratio, material and finish choices, as well as design parameters are matters of individual taste, and it would be neigh on impossible for a membership or judging committee to DQ an applicant for having questionable taste. Doesn't help the organization's goals much, but there is no rule against ugly.:D

Bailey Bradshaw said:
Great question Steve, and a difficult one to answer and not sound like another complaint.

......I felt like a freshman in high school who had to watch my back or someone would use the Guild to hurt my business and reputation. I have always used CNC machines in my business, and that was an ongoing debate as well, even though I have always been open and honest about my use of the technology.

I decided to put my efforts into the ABS. I had just received my MS stamp and there were many avenues to help the organization and furthur my business.

...So, to bring this post to conclusion, If the Guild could educate makers on proper business practices, planning production, scheduling work to be able to pay bills AND have knives at shows without looking like a vagrant begging for change because you have a months worth of work on the table and NEED a payday NOW. .......Steve, you can certainly identify with this analogy...back in the 70's and earlier, when someone had earned a Dan ranking in martial arts, it meant something. Now, it means your parents paid for the 18 month "Black Belt package" at the local Tae Kwon Don't "studio" and took you to class often enough to fullfill the contract. It lost it's credability and now only means "I can get my butt whipped with more style that before". So where is the benefit of acknowledging the accomplishment of earning rank in a true system ???
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Good post, Bailey. It would certainly be good if we could remove "back room" politics from organizations, but as long as egos are involved and fame/popularity/prestige are at stake....that isn't going to happen. Lotta egomaniacs out there.....I think if the Knifemaker's Guild is worth belonging to in the mind of the member that is enough to make them want to belong...in the simplest terms and outlook. I personally do my martial arts because I believe in my organization....as a JSA student, the opportunity to "test" my skills has not yet presented itself.:D

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
It's a good point. I had completely missed that. I guess I assumed that everyone knew that knife shows were open to the public and I should know by now not to assume anything.

On the other hand, we did got a lot of people coming to their first show becuase of the regional advertising. I think since those were public ads on buses, newspapers and TV rather than a trade magazine it was more obvious that it was a public event.

Mike
 
Mike Carter Custom Knives said:
I will take the hit on that one as I designed the ads that we ran in the magazines, on the buses and in our TV spots. Your point is taken and if I am involved with the advertising next year I will make sure that we do a better job of making it clear that the show is open to the public.

I have no control over the website but I will make sure the board is aware of your message.

Thank you.

Mike
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No disrespect to you Mike, but I always wondered why the Guild did not use business professionals to negotiate multi thousand dollar contracts, advertising etc instead of knifemakers. (read Bailey's post)
I know Mike performed the work for free and did it from the heart, but that one mistake could have caused hundreds of people not to visit. An advertising professional would have caught that mistake and maybe a few more. I also know the President and board put a lot of effort in what they do, but a professional who does this for a living will definitely be much better at it.
I know that we have honorary collectors who are astute business people and would probably be very glad to assist in such negotiations.
Just some food for thought.
BB
 
I think Bailey's and Bobby's posts are extremely important and should provide important clues to the direction that the Guild needs to take to attract new members. As a collector, I value the integrity of a maker as much as the quality of his/her work. But even the Guild's definition of integrity is problematic for some makers. With no universal acceptance of a single definition of what constitutes a "handmade knife," I would suggest that the Guild give serious attention to how it wants to define this term. Unless knifemakers can identify for themselves benefits of Guild membership, it is difficult for me to see how it can hope to generate new membership.

Speaking as a collector, I place much more value on the artistic and intellectual work that goes into the making of a hand crafted knife than on some of the "grunt" work that is also necessary. Very few, if any makers, make knives without tools of some kind. As long as the maker does not misrepresent how he makes knives, my decision to buy will be based on my opinion of his work and its value to me. I can appreciate Bailey's knifemaking skills; the fact that he uses CNC machines is not a "deal breaker" for me, because, as he says, he does not hide this from potential customers.

I began my post with the comment that I valued integrity as much as quality. At a show, I may not see a knife on a maker's table that is entirely to my liking. However, they meet my expectations as to quality and pricing. So far, I have only had good experiences ordering knives from such maker's willing to use my designs. However, I have read enough posts from others who have not had my experiences. Some don't get their knife even though they have paid for them; others only get their knives after significant delay.

While there will always be "bad actors," I believe that the vast majority of these less than satisfactory experiences could be avoided if makers had a place to turn to where they could learn good business practices before they find themselves with business problems and a dissatisfied clientele. In other words, I believe that it would be a valuable benefit to the knife community for the Guild to develop a course that would be geared toward the resources necessary to making a successful knifemaking business that was taught by successful knifemakers.

I would leave it to Guild members and potential Guild members to state whether they would find such a course beneficial. As a collector, I believe it would provide much needed confidence to me if I knew that I was ordering a knife from a maker that had as much confidence in his/her business practices as were reflected in his/her knifemaking skill.

Paul
 
I am not going to respond to everything here as I am not a spokesperson for the Guild, just an enthusiastic member. I don't want to take over the thread and I'm sure some of you are already tired of reading my opinions.

I will adress a couple of things.

Bobby, the Guild does hire, use and consult professionals. I offered my services on the ads since my background does include several years of working in broadcast television, marketing and graphic arts. I am not saying am the best at it but it is not new territory to me. I don't recall seeing any of the shows ads for any show stating "open to the public" even when they were created by professional advertising agencies. I missed it. I won't miss it again.

I can assure you the the board is aware of this thread. I don't think many of the board members post on forums other than the Guild's forums but they do read them and if something needs to be brought to their attention poeple like me make sure they are aware of it. The reality is that the board members are all working at full time jobs, knifemaking or otherwise, and just don't spend a lot of time on forums. In most cases they are making knives as I should be doing right now. :)

Some good points and ideas have already come out of this thread and I hope it stays productive. Some people feel that the Guild was once great and then it went bad. Even if that is the case, it doesn't mean it can't be great again.

There is new blood in the Guild and a lot of us want to see the Guild lose the old baggage and move forward. I think we are making progress but it is often frustrating when we are fighting through old hurt feelings from events and people who in many cases aren't even here anymore. I believe in the Guild. It means something to me. That emblem means something. I am not going to give up easily.

Thank you all for you input.

Mike
 
Mike Carter Custom Knives said:
Some good points and ideas have already come out of this thread and I hope it stays productive. Some people feel that the Guild was once great and then it went bad. Even if that is the case, it doesn't mean it can't be great again.

There is new blood in the Guild and a lot of us want to see the Guild lose the old baggage and move forward. I think we are making progress but it is often frustrating when we are fighting through old hurt feelings from events and people who in many cases aren't even here anymore. I believe in the Guild. It means something to me.
Mike
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I think in general, even people that are not posting have good wishes for the Knifemaker's Guild and want it to be great again.

It isn't only the Guild that is facing this, Mike. I said over 3 years ago that the ABS had tremendous momentum....and if they didn't seize it and take advantage of it, learning from the Guild's mistakes, they would lose it....and that momentum is losing steam....due more to inaction than anything else.

I believe in both the Guild AND the ABS. I don't know currently enough about the Guild to comment on the leadership, but I do about the ABS.....no comment.;)

I guess just as Les has hammered on, and Bruce has shared...best wishes are not going to make it happen, there has to be a plan of action, implemented with purpose and fortitude.

Hopefully, this thread will continue to generate some good ideas.:thumbup:

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
As a man who has been with a wonderful woman for 28 years and married to her for 22 of those years. You are not going to hide the feelings of the past by saying we are starting over again. One must be willing to admit that mistakes were made and figure out how not to make them again. The CNC versus what is hand made debate cut a lot of people deep and it will take a lot of talking to get a lot of these feelings out in the open so that we can discuss them and move on. The President and current board members may not have been in control at that time, but a lot of them know what went on. Communication is everything!!! I believe that if you are going to hold that office, then you will need to avail yourself to the collectors and makers no matter what. A few hours reading and posting in the evening is not going to hurt anyone. I am just as busy as the next fellow, but I make time for the forums because this is how I make my living.
 
Bobby Branton said:
One must be willing to admit that mistakes were made and figure out how not to make them again. The CNC versus what is hand made debate cut a lot of people deep and it will take a lot of talking to get a lot of these feelings out in the open so that we can discuss them and move on.
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OK, here is a perfect example. There was a LOT of debate about what is a handmade knife. There still is and I don't think everybody will ever agree on it. But the Guild's Board of Directors DID listen. They redefined what the GUILD considers a handmade knife. Article 1, Section 4 of the by-laws states:

The Guild recognizes that the term “Handmade Knives” is difficult to define and subject to varying interpretations, but hold that, at a minimum, it requires that a maker personally grind, forge, or knap the blade, and honestly disclose how each component is produced.

That's IT. Period. You can do pretty much anything you want as long as YOU do it and honestly disclose how you did it.

People complained. The board listened AND ACTED. People still complain. :(
 
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I see the show opened at Noon, at 10am, and at 10am.

Why not create an hour seminar beforehand for collectors to introduce them to the processes of a handmade knife (Slideshow?) and what to look for. How to understand the quality offered. Historical accounts and state of the art now. Why are names significant in sales and the aftermarket. The topics are endless and we discuss them openly here. There are PLENTY of folks ready to lead. In fact the CKCA would probably be delighted.... ;)

Most newcomers would be overwhelmed by the selection AND might also be startled at the costs. This may give the new and seasoned collector some traction to make good buying decisions, and enjoy the show that much more.

Education, all while the tableholders are setting up. :)

Coop
 
Cliff Parker said:
I do agree that around 150 tables is real good. As far as if all the best makers at one show. If all the duck's were not lined up nothing at all remember Santa Barbra. I heard that ONLY the best makers showed.
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You should agree, Cliff. You were one of the experienced makers that I heard say that recently.:D
 
Kohai999 said:
I think in general, even people that are not posting have good wishes for the Knifemaker's Guild and want it to be great again.

It isn't only the Guild that is facing this, Mike. I said over 3 years ago that the ABS had tremendous momentum....and if they didn't seize it and take advantage of it, learning from the Guild's mistakes, they would lose it....and that momentum is losing steam....due more to inaction than anything else.

I believe in both the Guild AND the ABS. I don't know currently enough about the Guild to comment on the leadership, but I do about the ABS.....no comment.;)

I guess just as Les has hammered on, and Bruce has shared...best wishes are not going to make it happen, there has to be a plan of action, implemented with purpose and fortitude.

Hopefully, this thread will continue to generate some good ideas.:thumbup:

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
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I am also one of those that wishes to see the GUILD stage a major comeback. The first knife show that I ever attended was one of the monster 400 table Guild shows at the Orlando Marriott World Center back in the early 90's. If a show like that doesn't get you excited about the custom knife game, nothing will!!!! I also agree with you that 250-300 would be a very good size for a "major" show. IIRC, Scott Slobodian, told me in 2007 that SICAC was close to that size and was considered the premier show in Europe back a number of years ago.
 
SharpByCoop said:
I see the show opened at Noon, at 10am, and at 10am.

Why not create an hour seminar beforehand for collectors to introduce them to the processes of a handmade knife (Slideshow?) and what to look for. How to understand the quality offered. Historical accounts and state of the art now. Why are names significant in sales and the aftermarket. The topics are endless and we discuss them openly here. There are PLENTY of folks ready to lead. In fact the CKCA would probably be delighted.... ;)

Most newcomers would be overwhelmed by the selection AND might also be startled at the costs. This may give the new and seasoned collector some traction to make good buying decisions, and enjoy the show that much more.

Education, all while the tableholders are setting up. :)

Coop
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Great idea Coop. Why not have The Guild or CKCA make a DVD to send out to new collectors. You could simply set up a flat screen with DVD player near the show entrance. Maybe have a knifemaker or three on the DVD explaining the different methods of crafting a knife. I was heartbroken when I heard what happened to the Drouin collection.
I thought he left it to the Guild to display at the shows. I heard it was donated to the NKCA and maybe broken up and some pieces were possibly sold because no one want to set it up and man the table. That was a history lesson in itself. If that is true, Joe would be rolling around in his grave. Do you know the whole story Mike?
BB
 
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Mike Carter Custom Knives said:
I have no idea. I am not familiar with it al all. Was it donated to the Guild or the NKCA? I know some items donated to the NKCA have gone missing and others have been auctioned off.
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I believed it was published that the Drouin collection was donated to the Guild and the knives in the collection made by Guild members were to be displayed at The Guild Show. I know it was there the last two years that I attended.
I'm sure someone on the board would know.
BB
 
Bobby,

I knew Joe Drouin quite well.....while this may have something to do with the Guild(it does) it does not concern constructive feedback concerning the Knifemaker's Guild building up momentum and moving forward....so I would ask that you stay on track, unless you want to derail the thread....if that is the case, feel free to do so.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

Bobby Branton said:
I believed it was published that the Drouin collection was donated to the Guild and the knives in the collection made by Guild members were to be displayed at The Guild Show. I know it was there the last two years that I attended.
I'm sure someone on the board would know.
BB
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