What should the Knifemaker's Guild do?

Mike Carter Custom Knives said:
"I heard" is not a history lesson.
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I can only imagine where you heard it from. It is relevant in the fact that the collection was donated to educate the public regarding the work of the members of the guild who have passed away and was supposed to be displayed at future Guild Shows.
This is my last comment on the subject.
 
Collector, collector, collector, I'm tired of all this emphasis on pushing gold plated, jewel studded, Damascus bladed, mammoth ivory handed Franklin Mint want-to-be knives by so many makers. I personally don't believe in "instant collector" items. Make good working tools of innovative design, high quality materials and superior craftsmanship. History will sort out which should be come collector items, just as it does with stamps, coins, firearms, classic autos, motorcycles, paintings and every other form of collectible. That is one of the reasons I quit going to the show about the time that Bob T, Bob Dozier, Ernie Emerson, Chris Reeve and other highly desirable using knife makers dropped out of the Guild. The vast majority of the current Guild members will be completely forgotten 30 years from now. Don't believe me? Go through the Guild directories from the late 70's and see how many names you recognize.
 
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Sidehill Gouger said:
Collector, collector, collector, I'm tired of all this emphasis on pushing gold plated, jewel studded, Damascus bladed, mammoth ivory ivory handed Franklin Mint want-to-be knives by so many makers. I personally don't believe in "instant collector" items. Make good working tools of innovative design, high quality materials and superior craftsmanship. History will sort out which should be come collector items, just as it does with stamps, coins, firearms, classic autos, motorcycles, paintings and every other form of collectible. That is one of the reasons I quit going to the show about the time that Bob T, Bob Dozier, Ernie Emerson, Chris Reeve and other highly desirable using knife makers dropped out of the Guild. The vast majority of the current Guild member will be completely forgotten 30 years from now. Don't believe me? Go through the Guild directories from the late 70's and see how many names you recognize.
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Then clearly the Guild Show is not for you. The guild does not try to be all things to all people. The Guild has always been about the taking the craft to the limit and leaning heavily on the artistic side. You will see EDC and very functional and reasonably priced knives at a guild show. I make them myself. You will also see jeweled, engraved, scrimmed, works of art that will never be used to cut anything athough they would if the owner wants to use a $5000 knife to whittle.

Some people scoff at art knives yet Buster Warenskis most artistic knives are among, if not THE, most valuable knives in the world. There is a market for all types of knives. It's an old tradition to engrave and embellish firearms and cutlery. It doesn't make it any more or less functional, just pretty and unique. A lot of people want that.

Different strokes for different folks. You can buy EDCs at any show. Some knives you will only find at the Guild show. I think innovation in design and function is good. Stan Wilson showed be a knife at the show that was gorgeous but it was also a masterpiece of design and engineering. It was a folder with NO visible screws or pins. Yet, he stood there and disassembled, and reassembled the knife while I watched. I loved it.
 
And apparently the Guild show is also not for a lot of other makers and buyers. Which is what I thought we were discussing. Why this show went from 450 to a little over a hundred makers with an "artistic side."

What I'm hearing is this is a show for "collectors" with deep pockets and a desire for instant gratification. It is also, of course, desirable for others of similar views to pat them on the back and tell them what wise purchases they have made.
 
Mike Carter Custom Knives said:
Then clearly the Guild Show is not for you. The guild does not try to be all things to all people. The Guild has always been about the taking the craft to the limit and leaning heavily on the artistic side. You will see EDC and very functional and reasonably priced knives at a guild show. I make them myself. You will also see jeweled, engraved, scrimmed, works of art that will never be used to cut anything athough they would if the owner wants to use a $5000 knife to whittle.

Some people scoff at art knives yet Buster Warenskis most artistic knives are among, if not THE, most valuable knives in the world. There is a market for all types of knives. It's an old tradition to engrave and embellish firearms and cutlery. It doesn't make it any more or less functional, just pretty and unique. A lot of people want that.

Different strokes for different folks. You can buy EDCs at any show. Some knives you will only find at the Guild show. I think innovation in design and function is good. Stan Wilson showed be a knife at the show that was gorgeous but it was also a masterpiece of design and engineering. It was a folder with NO visible screws or pins. Yet, he stood there and disassembled, and reassembled the knife while I watched. I loved it.
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Mike, are you on crack?? I cannot believe you just told this man that the Guild Show was not for him. The Guild Show should be and has been a show for anyone interested in custom knives. I know back in the day that most makers would bring their regular line up and they almost always make a few extra pieces that would knock your socks off. I think at most major shows you will see examples of knives for all interests. I have seen some drop dead gorgeous knives at every major show that I attended. The last two years that I went to the Guild Show, I also saw bead blasted knives and knives with scotch brite finishes among some real nice art knives.

Sir, save your money next year and just go to my web site listed below. I will gladly make you whatever you want.
BB
 
OK. UNCLE! I give up. I can see where this thread is going so I will back out and everyone who wants to pick and chose the pieces out of context and twist them around to suit their needs can knock yourselves out.

Bruce pointed out that there needs to be a fundamental change in mindset to move forward. That goes both ways. Some people have made up their minds that they don't like the Guild or Guild members and they are not going to change their attitude no matter what the Guild does or doesn't do.

Some people may have a legitimate right to have been hurt or angry and things that have happened in the past. Some are apparently just ate up with it. There's nothing I can do or say to fix it.

All of you who whine about the Guild not changing or improving should consider that you are part of the problem. When someone who comes along who wants to move ahead and points out that things have changed, you just beat them up until they say "What's the use?"
 
Mike -- I was glad to see that the Guild in 2009 was offering the use of credit cards for all makers that did not have access to their own.

Did the Guild find an increase in sales due to this option? Did collectors express pleasure at having this option?

Did the Guild put on the front of or inside the flyer that is handed out to those coming in the door info about the ability of customers to use a credit card when making a purchase?

are makers happy to have this credit card option? do makers feel it will help increase sales?

are collectors happy to have the credit card option (I know this can't be answered by you Mike but readers can respond) thus not requiring carrying a large amount of cash?
 
Listen to constructive criticism without getting defensive--or offensive against the one giving the advice. The Guild doesn't have to follow it--but it at should at least listen to it. The one huge advantage the ABS has over the Guild is a large number of their board members are NOT knifemakers.

The history of the Guild's screw-ups and ignoring their customer base has been stated--and while that may indeed be history, it is well known enough among a great many collectors that those collectors must see DEMONSTRATED that things have changed before they return. (Before they can see that, things have to actually change--which is the mindset change I mentioned earlier).

Run the show for the benefit and value of the customers--get that accomplished and the makers will follow. A show designed by makers for makers is the cart before the horse.

Make use of non-knifemaker honorary members who are willing to help and have experience to give (and who will give it). Such as helping form a Knifemakers Guild Collectors Group and appoint a representative of that group to the Guild Board with full voting rights.

Check out the report that I gave the Guild Board each year I was working with them on what the plan was, along with what was working and what was not working. Again, you don't have to follow it, but you should have that as background. I wonder of most of the current Board is even aware such a plan exists?

Stop shooting yourself in the foot. The Joe Drouin knives were no longer brought to the Guild show, according to my source who was involved in the transfer, because no one in the Guild with a position of responsibility was willing to take care of the knives, keep them cleaned, bring them to the show, and store them afterward. What kind of message does that send to prospective members and collectors?

And last, don't ask questions unless you can stand the answers.
 
No bucks; no Buck Rogers.

Since you asked what can be done to make it better, I'll throw in my two cents.

If you want to sell you go to where the market is. I really doubt the Guild's market is in Knoxville. If you keep finding second class venues you'll never support a major show. You want a guy to come and spend money? Then you have to offer something.

Here are my downsides to Knoxville:

1. It sucks to travel to. Not for the guy who lives 300 miles away (OK it kinda sucks for them too), but why would I travel from New York, Miami, Los Angeles, Seattle, or even Cleveland? No major airport? No major crowd of folks with real bucks to spend. (Because you're average high roller don't do Knoxville).

2. There's no nightlife. Want me to travel for a party? Then you have to offer something more than Dennys after hours. This is my vacation, I want to play.

3. Opens at noon? You do realize we're 5-6 hours into the business day by then? Even when I vacation I'm not going to waste the morning laying around a hotel. If your members are too old to work 9 to 5 you have a problem.

4. Who's the market? You want to get a bunch of people to attend you need to cater to a big market. With production knives going for four figures what is the value of the Guild? I'm pretty sure I don't know, and I'm not sure the members do.

5. Advertising? I hate to say it, but I only knew about the show by accident. I spent 4 days at Blade and never saw anything about a show in KY. Did no one figure the folks at Blade were part of the market?

Here's what I think you should do:

1. Make it manditory that the members support the show. If they can't make 3 out of 4 who needs them? It's THE annual event. They have a whole year to figure out how to get there.

2. Get enough tables and product to support people traveling 3000 miles to buy. More tables does not nessecarily mean more customers, but it should be pretty obvious that todays 150 table show does not draw the customers of yesterdays 400 table show.

3. Find a place with the ability to support the customers experience, not just the Guild members. Remember, it's the customers who are paying for this. You have to offer them more than just a knife show. There's a good reason Safari Club Intl uses Reno (international airport, cheap room and food, nightlife, outdoor recreation, etc); my guess is that their customer base is not that different than the Guilds "wannabe" market. And don't move it. Ever. (Think of it this way, if your members can't be bothered to attend, why should Joe Public.)

4. A show is business, not a social event. Social events are held after hours. An "open to the public" show is for selling to the customer you attracted to your table. You want to talk to your buddies, do it somewhere else. Many of you need a real lesson in selling; you make nice stuff, but you don't sell well. If I could change one thing, I'd take every chair out of the room.

5. Put on a show; not just a bunch of old fat guys eating and BSing on their side of the aisle. Show how to judge a knife, how to make a sheath, how you inlay, anything. You need to build the interest and knowledge of your customers, because if you don't they'll find a hobby that will. The rooms for all the demos at Blade were standing room only, that's going to keep people coming back.

6. Figure out what the Guild membership means, and try selling that. I can't imagine how you can say you're advancing knifemaking when you cannot even keep an audience aware of your primary message.

Disclaimer: I know, you're all going to ask who this yahoo with no history on this bbs is, and where does he get off. I'm the customer. I traveled to the Blade show this year, and spent 4 days in Atlanta. (I spent $10k there.) I've commissioned 7 knives in the last year, bought at least that many, had half a dozen engraved, bought books on the subject, and knife making supplies, and tools, and other junk that's related. And on the other side I've been in Sales and Marketing, and shown product in hundreds of shows. There's nothing involved here I haven't seen in other industries, notibly Firearms; you want an object lesson I recommend FEGA. Good luck.
 
I have tried very hard have a calm rational discussion about the Guild, take the high road and not lose my cool. It's hard to do sometimes as I am a passionate guy. I am passionate about what I do and the things I believe in. One of those things is the Guild and when I feel it is being attacked, I am being attacked and I go into defensive mode. And I do feel the Guild has been unfairly attacked in a few instances. I think I have been fed a few baited questions and comments. I finally lost my cool. I apologize for that.

I am tired of "he said" and "I heard".

I am tired of I'm not going to do this today because that happened 15 years ago.

I'm tired of someone who is long dead and gone did me wrong once so all of you Guild members are going to be the same way.

I'm tired of the Guild never changes or doesn't do anything while ignoring clear examples to the contrary.

I'm tired of the Guild's board doesn't listen to anyone. They do and I have cited concrete examples of it.

Some hear what they want to hear and don't hear what they don't want to hear.

Sidehill; I shouldn't have said the Guild Show is not for you. Of course you are welcome at the show and I do think there is something for everyone as I said in my response. I do think your wording that no current Guild member will be remembered in 30 years was inflammatory and designed to provoke a response, which it did.

Murray: I thought the credit card service was a nice offering for the table holders. I don't know how many used it.

Bobby and Bruce: Do you know where the Drouin collection is now? I don't. The clear implication was that the collection has been lost, broken up or sold off. Maybe people didn't want to be responsible for it. I was on the board of directors for the Kentucky Cutlery Association. I once took their only complete set of club knives to photograph. I was very uncomfortable having them in my possession because I worried about someone stealing them from my house or car. I was very happy to finish the photos and turn them back over to someone else. A complete set of the club's knives had disappeared once before and there are still stories and accusations about what happened to them. MAYBE the guild thought the collection would be better used on display at the NKCA knife museum where they could be seen and enjoyed by more people everyday rather than once a year at the show. I don't know. I think we should ask the right people and find out.

Bobby: If what you say is true about nobody addressing your membership issues, that was wrong. If it was as you described I think you are owed an apology and your previously completed probationary period should be valid and you should be eligible for voting membership. That's what I think. You should ask a current board member what they think. If you want to do it on a forum, you should do it on the Guild's forum. That's where they spend their time and address Guild issues, not here. It's no harder for you to go there than it is for them to come here. I would suggest a call to a board member to work it out. If you come back and tell me you called and they wouldn't listen to you then I will publicly agree with those who say they don't listen. I am talking about today, not 2007 or whenever.

I used to have employees come to me and grumble about what the boss was doing. I told them "Don't tell me, tell him". They never did. It was easier to grumble to someone who would agree with them but couldn't do anything to fix the problem.

I am disappointed that so few Guild members have spoken up to help and set the record straight about what the Guild is doing and direction it is going. I know a lot of them are here. I feel like the guy in line who didn't move when everyone else took two steps back.

Anyway, I will keep reading and taking note of ideas. I probably won't participate because when I do I feel like I am a target for few and it takes the discussion a bad direction. That's a shame but it is what it is.

Mike Carter
 
Mike,
I never said no current Guild members will be remembered. But I will stand by my statement that the majority will be forgotten. The ones that remain will actually be of interest to collectors as investments.

I've helped enough widows of collectors sort out their husband's custom knife "investments" to know this for a fact. Over and over I find a knife I know was made by a "big name" once upon a time that when you lay it out at a show today it doesn't even get a second glance.

But there are some that have. Harry Morseth, Randall, old Ruana's, Loveless and few others for sure. By the way, none of these people were making "art knives."
 
I Usually do not get involved in threads like this but Mike so defended his cause that I admire him for his loyalty

Les has a lotta good points and lets just say he's not wrong

First and foremost drop the probationary member title it just sounds creepy and like your already in trouble.

Not that the ABS has it all right but at least J.S. sounds better could you guys not call them J.M. or junior members

Secondly you should welcome and go out of your way to encourage ABS smiths to join. Mike you where very cordial when Master Bump inquired and you gave him the info but hell you should have called him up or someone should have to get a chance at recruiteing a maker of this class is a fantastic opportunity for the Guild.


Plus there is strength in # the more makers you get to join the more customers you will get and the success of your shows will grow. I know alot of people like the smaller more intimate shows but that is not a good business model if you want to grow and profit.


Last but not least your fold is getting old I know this sounds nasty but believe me it is not meant to be. You need to interest a younger audience I know the average custom knife guy is 50 something but for example go over to the Busse board there are younger people dropping 400 to 1000 something on prouduction knives they have the money you just have to figure out what they want and market to them by making what they want. Not everyone wants art type jewlery knives or knives that look outdated. Most of the Guild makers are old making what was popular then but not what is popular now. When I went into the Guild area of Blade it was like looking in my grandfathers draw and I am 41. You need to encourage young inovative makers that will draw a new audience in .There is a large tactical and outdoors community that spends money the Guild should be recruiteing makers of these style blades

I don't even like the tactcal genre but alot do.

You need new blood to stay alive.
 
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I want to set the record straight. I DO NOT hate the Guild. I like what they stand for. I was a little bummed about my situation, but I am over it. I just wanted to preface my comments so that everyone knew where I was coming from. I do hope the Guild can get it figured out and I do hope that they take the comments that I and others have offered and use them to build it back to what it used to be. We are in a different world now and we must learn to adapt or we will get left behind. I make knives for a living and I am constantly trying to learn how to market me and my knives. Eisman made some good points and well as others. Eisman, I would love to pick your brain sometime.
I know Bruce and Les very well, love em or hate em, like myself, they are both very passionate about knives and only want good things for our industry.
I am anxious to hear other ideas, so I will stand down for a bit and listen to what you guys have to say.
BB
 
Mike ever since I have been following the Guild comments on the Forums there have always been comments both positive and negative. I think some very good information comes out every year and it makes us all think. The issues of the past are not what we want to repeat if we want to grow as an organization as well as a show. The makers need to be vocal about what we want the Guild to be and encourage the Directors to study the suggestions that are made. It can be better for everyone, but not by staying the same. Some very good changes were made this year and I hope that with encouragement the Board will continue to explore every option to improve the Guild. Not just Show issues but membership issues as well as relations with our customers. If it means bringing in an outside party to look at the issues and make recommendations, I would support that as well as utilizing input from our Honorary members. They, as much as anybody, have an interest in our success.

I saw the 400 table shows and I knew I wanted to be part of it, but never thought I would. I also heard friends of mine tell me what happened to them when they applied for membership. I know that things have changed, but when I encourage makers to join I still hear the same story. When I came out of the review for probationary(I don't like that word either!) status I felt as good as I had ever felt about my knives. The same was true when I got my voting status. It was a great experience. I hope that everyone has the same and have encouraged several makers to make the move. One was brought in as a probationary member this year, and one got voting status. Others are still thinking about it I guess.

I think that every Guild member should have some of the membership applications on hand. You never know when you will get the chance to encourage a maker to join and he can't give you the excuse that he will have to order an application if you hand him one. If we don't have one we tell the maker that we will get him one and we call the Guild so he doesn't have to. We took some applications to a Georgia Custom Knifemakers Guild meeting and had several interested. When we host the Georgia Guild meeting at our shop we always try to have at least four Knifemakers Guild members on hand to review knives for prospective members and sign applications.

Four years ago Charlie and I sat at a table in Orlando and drew a 300 mile ring around Orlando on a map. We also drew a 300 mile ring around Nashville and Memphis. Guess which rings covered the largest population areas and which one covered mostly water. We passed the word on to a board member and found out that they were already looking to move the Show. We were encouraged that changes were on the way. I don't know if Louisville is the right place, but I would rather the show be there than in Orlando. I do think that the Guild and the Show needs to be evaluated each year to determine what can be done to improve every aspect. This is done in business all the time and must be done in the Guild too.
 
Why couldn't the show be moved around to different parts of the country each year?
It would give makers and collectors from different parts to participate in it ( cost wise?)

I have been a part of this forums for 4 years - NOT one Guild member has as ask me to join? :confused::rolleyes:

Good thread Steven. - :thumbup:

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Nobody asked me to join either. I asked them if I could. If you are interested I'll get you an application. Just say the word. Personally I'm very interested in good knifemakers that are interested in joining the Guild. The more good makers we have the better it can be.
 
Harry and Mr Parnee, good points. Several have or are being addressed.

I have already made the suggestions to the Guild that membership applications should available on the website for download so that members who are talking with prospects or the interested parties themselves can download them as needed.

I have already suggested changing the "Probationary" title.

I did send a personal email to Bruce about joining and I agree that such interested needs follow up.

I think everyone agrees that we want new and more young people involved. I can't say we really have a plan in place but we are discussing ways to do that.

People are already working on next year's show. I had a conversation about it just a little while ago.

I think the move to Louisville was the right move, at least at this time. The reponse to the new location and venue has been very good. Not everyone will like it just as people cannot agree what is the ideal size show but it has been far, far better received than Orlando. We were kind of caught by surprise when it sold out 10 months in advance when the last tables in Orlando were slow to sell. It was only about 10 tables difference in size.

There are few locations that are as easy to get to, more affordable, have as much to offer and are so centrally located to multiple poulation centers. Pick any point on the map, draw a 500 mile radius around it and then check the populations, demographics, interstates and aiports in that circle. Compare that to Louisville. That's why UPS located it's hub here and several major conventions have moved here from other (and bigger) cities.

There are heavy hitters here in hillbilly country too, just check us out around the first Saturday in May. We just need to get them as interested in knives as they are in horses. ;)

I and others have made a lot of suggestions. Because I suggest them and think they are right doesn't mean anyone will agree and they will implemented but I think at least some will. Others will takes a little time and planning to implement effectively.

Again, thank you for the input and suggestions.
 
bigal2me said:
Why couldn't the show be moved around to different parts of the country each year?


TA



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To get any kind of a reasonable rate the show organizers must negotiate with the hosting facility, their BIGGEST bargaining chip is the willingness to sign a multi-year contract

it makes a huge difference.

I would guess that it could save on overall costs as much as %50 over a 3 year period----- I have no factual basis for that percentage fyi, just guessing
 
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