What would you do??? Orders not filled..

The guy obviously can't pay you back. It's like a ponzi scheme with knives. He has to keep taking orders / payments otherwise there's no cash flow.


What can you do?

Ask for Confirmed Completion Dates for each knife owed you. Ask that if the knife isn't Mailed / Shipped on the Completion Date a Refund is issued. So on the Completion Date the knife or a refund ships.

Tell him of this thread, tell him this is what you want. There's not much more you can do- well you could list the makers name, all the knives owed, the cost with a list of how long you've been waiting for each.


Seems obvious who it is and if true- dude your reputation precedes you.
 
I have more than a few of this maker's knives, and am happy with them. I used to get really angry with his practices, but realized it didn't do me any good. I have one on order currently that I did pay a deposit on more than six months ago, and he hasn't even started the run yet. I want the knife, I know I will eventually get it, I just put it out of my mind until I get the "it's done, please pay the balance" email. All that being said, if his business practices were up to snuff, I would probably have at least two examples of every knife he makes. I have no doubt he will deliver the knives..... someday. Not defending him at all, and if I had paid what you have, I would ask for a refund of all but the deposit until such time as the knives were completed with him picking up paypal fees, or, alternatively, ask for a full refund, and ask to be notified if there are any extras at the end of the run as there almost always are..... just my 2 cents.
 
Gabe,

I'm sorry to hear about your trouble, it is disappointing to hear this continues still with this maker. I know 100% who you are referring to. But in reality.. it is the same story... different page. :confused:

If you can, or choose to; tolerate being just about completely ignored, as well as your communications & attempts for information rarely if ever responded to.... then sooner or later you will get your knives. If the maker in question remains healthy and alive that is.

But, it will be at his pace and time. The only way you will know when you are going to get them..... is when you are holding them in your hand. Cause you can believe very little he post's concerning delivery times, schedules, when packages are sent, etc. etc.

If you decide you wish a refund on long overdue projects where there has been little or no communication with you updating progress... much less an estimated delivery date..... I have some sage advice for you.

Ask for your refund. Be courteous, yet firm and unyielding. Establish a time, decided by you; that you are to receive the refund and make it crystal clear you expect to have it by that time. He will probably balk at this... so negotiate as you feel is fair..... to you. BUT, do not give much at all on the established time and accept no excuses... cause you will almost certainly get them.

He has stated before he is not a bank..... well, you are no a bank either Gabe and he has had an interest free loan from you for some time now.

If the refund is not received as agreed upon you can then either fold your tent and sulk away or you can do this.........

Post on his site and tell him in a kind and courteous way exactly what you are going to do if the refund is not overnighted to you.

Tell him you will report him to IC3 [ http://www.ic3.gov/default.aspx ], the Internet Fraud Division of the FBI [ http://www.fbi.gov/scams-safety/fraud/internet_fraud/internet_fraud ], the FTC [ https://www.ftccomplaintassistant.gov/ ], and any of the other fine agencies of your choice found here [ http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=yhs-avg&type=yahoo_avg_hs2-tb-web_us&p=internet+fraud ].

Then.... IF you do not have your refund the next day, do exactly what you told him you were going to do.. report and file complaints against him with the agencies mentioned above... all of them.

At that point, most likely he will 'lock' the thread you started and call you a "troll"... among other things. ;)

But, let that go in one ear and out the other Gabe. You are not the one who has done anything wrong..... he is.

The only mistake you made was to trust him in the first place...... ;)
He is the one that sadly broke that trust.

I wish you the best in whatever direction you decide to take... if you truly decide you want a refund..... you set the rules. Otherwise you will have just swapped the problem of no knives for the problem of no refund. :)

Oh yeah, in case you are wondering... I speak from experience. ;)
 
my guess is the maker does not feel he has violated anyone's trust since his behavior has been consistent as long as i have been on bfc.

every so often there is an apology thread, but then its back to business as usual.

ultimately, i believe he has honored all the orders, so isn't as bad as duncan (at least as far as we know).
 
Yeah, I agree. I honestly don't think the maker in question is a true "bad guy"... in the purest form of the words.

I don't think he would intentionally steal from anyone and as far as I know he always comes through... at some undisclosed time in the future. But there is a definite problem that is as obvious as the nose on ones face. All one has to do to verify that is to do a search here on BF.

Yet the maker in question will not, or somehow cannot; address the problem with a permanent solution.

It would seem the maker is obviously to it. It is kinda like a person dragging around a broken leg, that is obvious to anyone around them; yet they insist it is not broken.

The whole thing just kinda leaves me shaking my head... it is so predicable in the ways it happens time and time again :confused:

And this has been going on for years.

As a former customer that spent a lot of money with, as well as respected him; it was truly disheartening to see unfold. But there came a time when enough was enough for me..... no more.
 
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One thing the OP should consider in deciding whether to ask for a refund is what can expect from the maker in the years to come should one of the knives require a simple repair or modification. Will the OP have to endure another unnecessary long-term test of patience?

Having repeatedly witnessed his apathy in adhering to timelines that he himself sets while sitting on a wallet padded with other folks' money for knives that have not been delivered, I decided that I was unwilling to accept even the possibility that he might have my knife for years on a simple warranty issue. As such, I sold my knives that were made by him and have never looked back. And since then, I have found other knives that are surprisingly less expensive and still every bit as good (if not better) functionally as his knives. Add to that superior customer service that I received elsewhere and it was a "no-brainer".
 
So why not just outright name the person instead of beating around the bush ? Sure one can draw a conclusion by doing some research on the forums , but if you want others to know of your problems with a maker , you need to bring it out in the open , not leave it to others to "guess". What good does that do others who may be thinking of purchasing from that maker.

Old rule still stands true : If the maker needs $$$$ up front for a standard order using his normal materials , go elsewhere. I remember finding that info shortly after I started visiting the diff knife forums , so to those who read this thread , be warned , NEVER PAY UPFRONT.

To be warned and to continue to pay up front from the same maker is not wise.
 
Being new here and person who hates to be lied to and might fall into this mans trap I think the maker should be named. At the very least a PM.
 
MORIMOTOM said:
my advice, as will be the advice of many others, is to not pay up front for a knife when the delivery time is unknown.

many makers are in great demand, and the majority do not require prepayment. normally one just gets on a waiting list, and payment is rendered when the knife is complete.

prepayment indicates, to me at least, that the maker is unable to sustain the business end (materials, overhead, etc), and they are already working in the red.
Click to expand...

That is true and untrue at the same time.

I ran a business recently (which I grew tired of and decided to go back to a day job), and required prepayment on some orders. It had nothing to do with me working in the red.

Due to the size of my company, I had a certain amount of working capital, and a certain amount of orders coming through. If a customer wanted me to deliver an order much larger than my typical order size, all at once, it would require at least half down payment because it would so deplete my working capital as to effect my ability to fill other smaller orders for customers.

It didn't necessarily mean that I was in financial trouble, just that I had a limited production capability.

I could see the same happening for a knifemaker... they may have all of their working capital tied up in production orders, so any custom orders need to be prepaid to prevent putting them in a position where they are unable to purchase raw materials for the production orders.

Small business is hard, expanding is even harder. There is a point where you have to literally juggle your finances to move forward. It usually comes right around the point where you would need to hire help.




That said, I also fell into situations where I was not able to deliver on time for various reasons, and while I was not always perfect about communication, I did make at least some effort to personally update my customers from time to time with detailed info. There were some times that I missed an email, but VERY rarely would I miss two in a row.
 
Experiences with other businesses are irrelevant. Cost of materials is a small part of the cost of a custom knife. Reputable knifemakers do not accept payment in advance. Even accepting a small deposit isn't usual.
 
i would do what teacher suggested unless you are ok with waiting who knows how long for your knives. maybe get with another maker and have them make what you want instead of having to wait. i would also let him know about this thread.
 
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Not naming the maker just leads to speculation about who it is.
This is GB&U where the idea is to praise the praisworthy and name the bad guys (the bad and the ugly).
I figure I know the maker you mean, but I also want to know if someone else is operating this way.
 
As someone with a limited knife budget funding an unlimited imagination,I have NOT ordered from certain makers because of warnings on this sub-forum. I check in here to find the good AND bad. Please let us less informed folk know so we wont be in the same situation that you are.thanx--KV
 
I rode this ride with Koster before, too. Put my name on the list, pay the deposit, etc. I got tired of all the BS waits and making runs out of order, and decided that there are other makers here on BF that make knives just as good (and better :o ) without the silly waits. If I'm going to throw down a multiple year wait.. it's going to say Randall Made on it. :p
 
I guess I got lucky with my Koster bushcrafter. Wait wasn't too bad.
But I have known folks go looooooong spans without much as far as updates or solid ETAs.
He seriously ought to consider going to a batch system like Andy Roy (Fiddleback Forge).
He'd easily sell out of knives with any batch he made. The knives are solid.
However, the deposits combined with the wait times just get people all worked up after a while.
 
I guess it all boils down to 'priorities' (certainly not principles) on the makers side......do a 'new run of knives/design' to cash in on deposits/full payment and then what to do with the $$$$'s? :confused:

Buy materials to build said new run of knives/design OR buy camera equipment, computer equipment, big-screen TV's, different vehicles, go on vacation, etc., etc. :rolleyes:
 
I have a feeling it is Koster too, from what I've read in various posts on BF. His stuff looks great, but I'll never buy anything from him. :shrug:
 
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