What's going on in your shop? Show us whats going on, and talk a bit about your work!

coldsteelburns said:
Yes, Karl does know what he's talkin about especially when it comes to surface finishing! Here is the first vid (part 6) in a 10 part series where I believe is when he begins to start talkin about surface finishing. Watch that, then part 7, then 8, then 9, then 10.. Heck, I'd watch the whole series cause I love bladesmithing and Karls work, and there is some valuable info to be had :D .. But as far as surface finishing, I'm pretty sure it's starts somewhere in part 6.. You may have to skip some parts togetto the surface prep stuff, but I say just watch it all :cool: :thumbup: So here is part 6. BWT these vids weren't uploaded by Karl, so it's not on his youtube channel (just click the info icon to see the uploader's username.. I'm sure you already know that though Aaron ;) )

[video=youtube;7nQ8oVPXffc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7nQ8oVPXffc[/video]

~Paul
My YT Channel Lsubslimed
Click to expand...

Seems like the series stopped as Karl was going to start hand sanding. Too bad, I was enjoying it. Are there other vids elsewhere that show the blade being finished?
 
Last edited:
Re-purposed a vise with X and Y travel to get a more precise pattern when doing engine turning on liners.



And replaced the motor on a small drillpress. Turns out that I did not need to do that. :( The motor was not the problem but the top step of the quill pulley which has a wobble in it and makes enough resistance to slow down the motor and make it look like it's defective. Oh well, now I know how to replace it for the next time. :o

While I was at it, thought I'd make a handle for the tensioning arm. I was getting tired of using a hex key every time. Snazzy isn't' it? :D

 
Been looking at a few CNC machines over the last week. Went to the HAAS dealership on Wednesday to check out new machines. Great machines but with prices to match of course:

4SgN8AVl.jpg


Then today went and saw a 1986 vintage OKK PCV40 machining center. This is a SERIOUS older machine. 7200lbs with an 18 station toolchanger, going for $4k. Got an electrician to come out and temporarily hook it up for testing... Unfortunately the spindle drive wouldn't come up at all so the machine is probably not worth buying unless you were already super familiar with the model and could troubleshoot directly.

Really beautiful machine though, built like you wouldn't believe. Just wants to be taken away and fixed up, you can feel it:
zyWgW62l.jpg


Lots of interesting lessons from today though. Met a very friendly younger electrician who also happens to be unafraid to dig into the panel on a machine like this. He traced the problem to the spindle drive within a minute... He'll be seeing work from me in the future for sure.

Also got introduced to a rigger with excellent rates for moving big machines like this. He apparently gets paid all the time to take perfectly good working machining centers and other machinery to the scrapyard because the owner doesn't want to deal with the hassle of selling and just wants to get the new machine in. He said it's usually pretty easy to convince the owners to sell the machine to someone he introduces them to for a few percent above scrap rates.

He's talking about mid 90s drill/tap centers, VMCs and CNC lathes that are in good running condition and under power going for $3-4k. That's a good person to know! He said he's got a few things in mind so it'll be interesting to see what comes of all this. Keeping my options open for now...
 
aarongough said:
Also got introduced to a rigger with excellent rates for moving big machines like this. He apparently gets paid all the time to take perfectly good working machining centers and other machinery to the scrapyard because the owner doesn't want to deal with the hassle of selling and just wants to get the new machine in. He said it's usually pretty easy to convince the owners to sell the machine to someone he introduces them to for a few percent above scrap rates.

He's talking about mid 90s drill/tap centers, VMCs and CNC lathes that are in good running condition and under power going for $3-4k. That's a good person to know! He said he's got a few things in mind so it'll be interesting to see what comes of all this. Keeping my options open for now...
Click to expand...

Very interesting
 
Aaron, when you budget for your machine, don't forget to put aside a significant amount for endmills/ball ends mills/drills/taps/reamers/tool holders/clamping/vises/fixtures/etc in short, don't neglect what you will spend on them, on expensive machines like the Haas, you will spend from around 20%+ of the machine value in tooling for starters...

Also be carefull with deals like these, it may be cheap in the short run, but downtimes, replacements and service cost will add up faster than a new machine with manufacturer warranty.

AFAIK Hass has some nice financing and a surefire way to receive your payments every month, you don't enter the monthly code, the machine stops... :D Also be aware that they may show you a fully loaded with options machine and then quote just the bare options, they have a lot of software goodies in their controls that are sold as options, always ask and get quoted with what's included and what's not.


Pablo
 
PEU said:
Aaron, when you budget for your machine, don't forget to put aside a significant amount for endmills/ball ends mills/drills/taps/reamers/tool holders/clamping/vises/fixtures/etc in short, don't neglect what you will spend on them, on expensive machines like the Haas, you will spend from around 20%+ of the machine value in tooling for starters...

Also be carefull with deals like these, it may be cheap in the short run, but downtimes, replacements and service cost will add up faster than a new machine with manufacturer warranty.

AFAIK Hass has some nice financing and a surefire way to receive your payments every month, you don't enter the monthly code, the machine stops... :D Also be aware that they may show you a fully loaded with options machine and then quote just the bare options, they have a lot of software goodies in their controls that are sold as options, always ask and get quoted with what's included and what's not.


Pablo
Click to expand...

Hey Pablo!
Yes, all of those are excellent points. When I was looking at the HAAS I had them add about $5k worth of tooling to the quote cost. I only really need toolholders, tools and a vise as I'm already setup in terms of measuring tools and so on. Maritool is a great source for toolholders by the way. CAT40 holders from them are about $70-$80 each and are supposed to be excellent quality (and they're all US made).

CAD/CAM packages can also be a huge expense if you don't have them already. Solidworks is around $5-6k, a CAM package will be about the same!

The HAAS finance wanted 20% down payment unfortunately, which is not something I can swing right now. The used machines are interesting because it seems there's actually quite a bit of support for many of them in my area.

I'm now looking at used machines in the range of ~$4k or so. Seems you can get an awful lot of machine for that if you're willing to put up with an older control and the potential for some teething problems.

I'm also looking at building a small machining center from scratch. That would actually be a good option as I can use standard parts for everything and I'll be able to fix any issues that it might ever have.
 
aarongough said:
Hey Pablo!
Yes, all of those are excellent points. When I was looking at the HAAS I had them add about $5k worth of tooling to the quote cost. I only really need toolholders, tools and a vise as I'm already setup in terms of measuring tools and so on. Maritool is a great source for toolholders by the way. CAT40 holders from them are about $70-$80 each and are supposed to be excellent quality (and they're all US made).

CAD/CAM packages can also be a huge expense if you don't have them already. Solidworks is around $5-6k, a CAM package will be about the same!

The HAAS finance wanted 20% down payment unfortunately, which is not something I can swing right now. The used machines are interesting because it seems there's actually quite a bit of support for many of them in my area.

I'm now looking at used machines in the range of ~$4k or so. Seems you can get an awful lot of machine for that if you're willing to put up with an older control and the potential for some teething problems.

I'm also looking at building a small machining center from scratch. That would actually be a good option as I can use standard parts for everything and I'll be able to fix any issues that it might ever have.
Click to expand...

I wouldn't get tooling through Haas unless you need to for financing reasons. They make a killing on that stuff.

You'll get better tool holders for less buying them direct from Maritool.

You need about 20 tool holders to get started, a Kurt vise and a few thousand in endmills, drills, taps, facemill etc. Probably no more than $5,000

I have expensive cutting tools I bought years ago that I've never used because they ended up not fitting into my work flow. Large solid carbide endmills etc. I recommend standardizing on cutter and coating type and stick to it to learn how best to utilize them on your machine in the materials you cut rather than go for catalog sales and ebay. I get 90% of what I need through Lakeshore carbide. They're reasonably priced and I can run them so hard that I would be losing money using some of the older cutters on my shelf even though they're already paid for.

That old machining center is nice and heavy, but if those are the old yellow cap Fanuc servo motors that's a 6M system and is analog DC. Stay away.

Modern Fanuc systems with AC digital servo have red caps. <--- want

Don't try and build a machining center unless making machining centers is your hobby. It's a huge time suck, and making something that will really work well and do the job is more complicated than you'd think. Make knives.

Edit to add: you can get into CNC for ~$15,000. It's a misconception that it's all 100K+. The modern high speed stuff is. But just like buying a used car, the really cheap stuff is not the best value. If it's too slow and too rough to do the quality work you want, it's a waste of time, space and money. I like 30-50K used machines in good condition.
 
Last edited:
Nathan the Machinist said:
I wouldn't get tooling through Haas unless you need to for financing reasons. They make a killing on that stuff.

You'll get better tool holders for less buying them direct from Maritool.

You need about 20 tool holders to get started, a Kurt vise and a few thousand in endmills, drills, taps, facemill etc. Probably no more than $5,000

I have expensive cutting tools I bought years ago that I've never used because they ended up not fitting into my work flow. Large solid carbide endmills etc. I recommend standardizing on cutter and coating type and stick to it to learn how best to utilize them on your machine in the materials you cut rather than go for catalog sales and ebay. I get 90% of what I need through Lakeshore carbide. They're reasonably priced and I can run them so hard that I would be losing money using some of the older cutters on my shelf even though they're already paid for.

That old machining center is nice and heavy, but if those are the old yellow cap Fanuc servo motors that's a 6M system and is analog DC. Stay away.

Modern Fanuc systems with AC digital servo have red caps. <--- want

Don't try and build a machining center unless making machining centers is your hobby. It's a huge time suck, and making something that will really work well and do the job is more complicated than you'd think. Make knives.

Edit to add: you can get into CNC for ~$15,000. It's a misconception that it's all 100K+. The modern high speed stuff is. But just like buying a used car, the really cheap stuff is not the best value. If it's too slow and too rough to do the quality work you want, it's a waste of time, space and money. I like 30-50K used machines in good condition.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the input Nathan!
I like the idea or standardizing on size/coating for cutting tools, had only thought about that in a peripheral way.

The tooling from HAAS would have been for financing reasons as you guessed. Maritool seems like a better deal otherwise.

In terms of building a machine, I've actually built a few smaller machines in the past (CNC routers) so I have a fair grasp on what's required. A mill is a different ballgame from a mechanical perspective but the concepts are transferrable. I know it's going to be a time suck, but spending 3 months working on that could then potentially have me doing what I want on knives for a looong time. Also I've always wanted to build one so the temptation is strong :)

The big OKK machine is beautiful. If I had the time/space I would just get it and do a slow restoration or retrofit. But I don't, so I think it's likely an albatross and will stay away.

Will be talking to the rigger this week to see what he's got around. I think a full-on machining center is simply too big for my space at the moment, so will likely be looking for bed mills. Problem there is most of them won't have toolchangers which make them far less useful as a productivity tool because I'd have to babysit the machine.

Finding a used minimill would be great, but those things hold their value 'too well' because everyone wants one for their garage... Hence why I'm thinking about scratch-building. I know it would be yak-shaving to some extent, but I'd enjoy the process so it wouldn't really be a loss.
 
Aaron, 3 months of your work on a DIY project, cost you at least, the same as making and selling knives in the same amount of time.
Go purchase a small CNC milling machine in decent working conditions, you don't really need toolchangers, its nice addition yes.
I mean, there are decent small sized cnc machines (tormach/syil/etc) that will get you running once you receive them much faster than the DIY route.
And regarding CAD/CAM software, knifemaking do not really need the high end packages, of course a good CAM is a big advantage in terms of machining strategies options, but you can get not very expensive software that is capable of almost all your operations. Check www.vectric.com


Pablo
 
Nathan the Machinist said:
I have expensive cutting tools I bought years ago that I've never used because they ended up not fitting into my work flow. Large solid carbide endmills etc. I recommend standardizing on cutter and coating type and stick to it to learn how best to utilize them on your machine in the materials you cut rather than go for catalog sales and ebay. I get 90% of what I need through Lakeshore carbide. They're reasonably priced and I can run them so hard that I would be losing money using some of the older cutters on my shelf even though they're already paid for.
Click to expand...

Can you tell me about tool sharpening with a surface grinder, or a tool and cutter grinder


Has sharpening gone completely out the window for disposable inserts and small carbide endmills ?

I see some large solid carbide tools in the multi thousands and know they can break with a simple screw up crash, but why use them when indexable are available ?


Which tools are worth sharpening, and is it only done by large firms with dedicated tool rooms and the one man shops that can afford to do it in downtime

or is is just for special in house form tools
 
aarongough said:
In terms of building a machine, I've actually built a few smaller machines in the past (CNC routers) so I have a fair grasp on what's required. A mill is a different ballgame from a mechanical perspective but the concepts are transferrable. I know it's going to be a time suck, but spending 3 months working on that could then potentially have me doing what I want on knives for a looong time. Also I've always wanted to build one so the temptation is strong :)

The big OKK machine is beautiful. If I had the time/space I would just get it and do a slow restoration or retrofit. But I don't, so I think it's likely an albatross and will stay away.

Will be talking to the rigger this week to see what he's got around. I think a full-on machining center is simply too big for my space at the moment, so will likely be looking for bed mills. Problem there is most of them won't have toolchangers which make them far less useful as a productivity tool because I'd have to babysit the machine.

Finding a used minimill would be great, but those things hold their value 'too well' because everyone wants one for their garage... Hence why I'm thinking about scratch-building. I know it would be yak-shaving to some extent, but I'd enjoy the process so it wouldn't really be a loss.
Click to expand...

http://www.infinityassets.com/
http://www.corpassets.com/auction-calendar/

If you subscribe to these auctioneers, they sell cnc mills often
I'm surprised how many machines are sold off within a few years of a new machine - probably based on contract changes

But there's a big difference between an owner /operator shop like Nathan who takes care of his machines, vs flat out production where the machine is flogged hard and replacement is planned after so many parts.
I don't know how to tell those two apart


You will have to know your stuff really well
don't get caught on auction fees, plus taxes on top - maybe be GST registered before you buy - I've paid 26% with taxes on top of the fees
Watch riggers fees, sometimes they contract with one rigger - no competiton
 
12345678910 said:
Can you tell me about tool sharpening with a surface grinder, or a tool and cutter grinder


Has sharpening gone completely out the window for disposable inserts and small carbide endmills ?

I see some large solid carbide tools in the multi thousands and know they can break with a simple screw up crash, but why use them when indexable are available ?


Which tools are worth sharpening, and is it only done by large firms with dedicated tool rooms and the one man shops that can afford to do it in downtime

or is is just for special in house form tools
Click to expand...

I don't resharpen and I only use indexable on facemills. Better MMR with solid.

Once you resharpen you never get the geometry or coating back right. When you've developed a program or parameters for a new endmill and they don't work right with a regrind you'd spinning your wheels, wasting time, scrapping parts and ultimately wasting money. When I do the math, the cost of cutting tools and material are really not that important, time really is the limiting factor. I probably don't spend $10,000 a year in carbide. If I could cut that in half it wouldn't amount to much. Reducing setups, optimizing machine time and labor utilization is way more significant to the bottom line.

An $18 3/8" Lake Shore endmill run in A2 at 4100 RPM, 20 IPM. DOC and WOC vary. Cutter life is about 17 pieces, which is about 4 hours and fills up half a trash can.

[video=youtube_share;jWvijJGdP1A]http://youtu.be/jWvijJGdP1A[/video]

That is the TW-90 radius platen, which is 9 1/4" long. I'm roughing it hot and dry because that's what the new coatings like. This might be a good application for regrinds, but then I'd have to slow the whole thing down and tweak out my process again.

I can do a run of 100 blades with $300 in carbide on the bevels. But if I double my carbide, I can save $300 on belts and ultimately save time. And if I use the better endmills rather than discount cutters I can do it in fewer tools which means fewer tool change overs which improves our productivity. I'm not saying you should always use only the absolute best and use consumables like they're free, but once you get some experience with CNC and get your process worked out you can start to see that saving a little here and there can be false economy.
 
B
aarongough said:
Been looking at a few CNC machines over the last week. Went to the HAAS dealership on Wednesday to check out new machines. Great machines but with prices to match of course:

4SgN8AVl.jpg


Then today went and saw a 1986 vintage OKK PCV40 machining center. This is a SERIOUS older machine. 7200lbs with an 18 station toolchanger, going for $4k. Got an electrician to come out and temporarily hook it up for testing... Unfortunately the spindle drive wouldn't come up at all so the machine is probably not worth buying unless you were already super familiar with the model and could troubleshoot directly.

Really beautiful machine though, built like you wouldn't believe. Just wants to be taken away and fixed up, you can feel it:
zyWgW62l.jpg


Lots of interesting lessons from today though. Met a very friendly younger electrician who also happens to be unafraid to dig into the panel on a machine like this. He traced the problem to the spindle drive within a minute... He'll be seeing work from me in the future for sure.

Also got introduced to a rigger with excellent rates for moving big machines like this. He apparently gets paid all the time to take perfectly good working machining centers and other machinery to the scrapyard because the owner doesn't want to deal with the hassle of selling and just wants to get the new machine in. He said it's usually pretty easy to convince the owners to sell the machine to someone he introduces them to for a few percent above scrap rates.

He's talking about mid 90s drill/tap centers, VMCs and CNC lathes that are in good running condition and under power going for $3-4k. That's a good person to know! He said he's got a few things in mind so it'll be interesting to see what comes of all this. Keeping my options open for now...
Click to expand...

Oddly enough, you look much happier in front of the haas. :)
 
Well you know what they say about knifemaking..."If you want to make a small fortune at knifemaking all you need to do is start out with a large fortune"
 
Luckily I like doing projects in pairs or small groups. I have been working on a pair of knives to enter one in the KITH here on Bladeforums. I was using jigged bone for the first time and as such was unaware that one of the scales I had purchased wasn't any good. It took me trying to do the final shaping to figure it out, though now that I know more of what to look for, I can tell it wasn't any good just by looking at the off cut piece. Thankfully I had the 2nd knife to finish up and allow me to meet the deadline.

Here is my KITH entry
VqhiVAv.jpg


Thanks for looking,
Chris
 
I had some time over the weekend so aside from cutting the surface off my portaband drive wheel with a broken blade, I managed to ht 5 blades and then play with my forge. The blade started out 1/4 x 1 5160 6" bar. its just under 8", just over 1/8 thick. the bar underneath is 4 layers 1084/15n20, however this was then twisted.. with great dificulty.. I think I got 8 or 9 twists then managed to hammer it back flat to about the same as it started. 1/4 x 1 x 6. the next pic is after about an hours work getting it HOT and flattening it out. 8.5" x 1ish about 1/8. I put the curve to match the pattern it will be. I would have tried to forge it out but Im not sure I could get the bumps of the twists out while forging.

DSC_0145.jpg

DSC_0146.jpg
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top