What's up with cold steel testing triad locks against cheap knives?

[Poleaxe]

Dave, I wouldn't talk down anybody's intelligence here. You have 27 posts, and this is about the peak IQ of all of them. Take advice from Morrow and Fire_Brand and put down the keyboard.

Fire_Brand makes a good point. Lock strength is great, but it's just one ingredient in baking a good knife. For some, that may be the most important feature. For others, (like me, who EDCs traditional knives without trouble), it's not the selling point at all. Ergos, steel, blade profiles, price-point, even aesthetic appeal... they all play a part in the selection process for most people. Hopefully, Cold Steel will showcase those elements as well.

I've owned Cold Steel stuff in the past, probably will in the future. But it won't be a video of "Espada lock beats Spyderco Military Lock" that determines what knife selection I make.

I've heard people mention the old adage: "If you know how to properly use a knife, you don't need a lock." I have to say I agree with the essence of this. Millions of folks have carried millions of traditional knives for hundreds of years, with no letting of blood. It's because we know the limitations of our knives, and don't push them beyond that... hence "properly using" the knives.

But occasionally there are folks who merely THINK they know the limitations of their particular knife, and THINK they're within the operating parameters. It's these folk who MIGHT benefit from a sturdy lock on their piece. On the flipside, a sturdy lock may push somebody into thinking that their knife can take a great bit more than it actually can, and trouble can result. I've done a fair bit of 4-wheeling, and can tell you this... Give a guy a 4WD and sometimes he'll get himself stuck. Give that guy a winch for the front of his truck, and it'll just make him get stucker than before. False sense of security is a dangerous thing. A lock of any strength is not a suitable substitute for a competent knife operator.

And a great lock doesn't make up for shortcomings in other aspects of design, either.

I don't really see the problem with Dave's posts..He actually has a pretty good point IMO. Why post in a subforum of a company you will not support or have any interest in?(referring to the guy saying he only buys usa made) I said the same thing to Stabman but he was a lot more reasonable then most in this thread .

"It just seems like, in general, that a grown man constantly chiming in on threads with snarky remarks proclaiming to never buy a companies products again is a little silly. It serves no purpose other then to stir the pot and muddy the water on something you are no longer invested in."

 

[jbmonkey]

Counter points and civil disagreement is a good thing. I like my cold steels and see nothing bad about their test videos......but....others disagreeing in a civil way as long as its civil and not nasty and snarky.......doesn't bug me in the least. Some have done a great job at being civil and such and others not so much so. So be it. Course forum mod has end say of what is allowed and what isn't...what i think doesn't really matter.

 

[Velitrius]

I don't really see the problem with Dave's posts..He actually has a pretty good point IMO. Why post in a subforum of a company you will not support or have any interest in?(referring to the guy saying he only buys usa made) I said the same thing to Stabman but he was a lot more reasonable then most in this thread .

"It just seems like, in general, that a grown man constantly chiming in on threads with snarky remarks proclaiming to never buy a companies products again is a little silly. It serves no purpose other then to stir the pot and muddy the water on something you are no longer invested in."

Let's see... prior to the post where Dave intimated that somebody was late for a gyno appointment, (is that the "pretty good point" you think he had?), he called folks "crybabies", "girly-men", "females", "idiots", "retarded", had "sand in the vjay jay"....

If you think he made a "pretty good point IYO" with those posts, well then we differ on that score. Hence, my assessment of his commentary as not sounding all that intelligent.

Stabman was being honest in his feedback on current marketing strategy, he stated that it wasn't working for him and some others. I'm one of those "some others" he mentioned. Cold Steel is not a company that I will not support or have no interest in.. I am interested and will support them. And if I feel that giving a company feedback, or constructive criticism, is a supportive venture. And if you don't feel that way, you are certainly entitled to your viewpoint, but if you call me "retarded" or think I'm "late for a gyno appointment", I'm going to take issue with your post.

 

[Poleaxe]

Let's see... prior to the post where Dave intimated that somebody was late for a gyno appointment, (is that the "pretty good point" you think he had?), he called folks "crybabies", "girly-men", "females", "idiots", "retarded", had "sand in the vjay jay"....

If you think he made a "pretty good point IYO" with those posts, well then we differ on that score. Hence, my assessment of his commentary as not sounding all that intelligent.

Stabman was being honest in his feedback on current marketing strategy, he stated that it wasn't working for him and some others. I'm one of those "some others" he mentioned. Cold Steel is not a company that I will not support or have no interest in.. I am interested and will support them. And if I feel that giving a company feedback, or constructive criticism, is a supportive venture. And if you don't feel that way, you are certainly entitled to your viewpoint, but if you call me "retarded" or think I'm "late for a gyno appointment", I'm going to take issue with your post.

Look, we are all grown men and women here I presume. Most of people on this forum are adults for the most part. I don't think we need to tread the overly PC mindset of "I can say whatever I want!!!" while the person stamps their feet with a tear in their eye. We aren't little kids here and this isn't grade school.People shouldn't be so sensitive about what someone like Dave says in response to their negative comments. The issue here is that we DO have people who have nothing to contribute but negativity and stirring the pot. I can understand the annoyance of seeing multiple who ADMIT to not wanting anything to do with CS and yet they keep posting in here. Why not just bow out of this subforum all together? Some of these posts are understandable, varying opinions and that's ok but some are just unneeded drivel .

 

[cncpro11]

Maybe lets talk about knives instead of a guy who hasn't posted in this thread for three days?

I didn't even know the proof vids existed until after I bought my first Cold Steel knife but I find them entertaining, and as long as I have been a member people have been going on and on about which knife is indestructible and which knife will save their life so in that regard I feel that CS may be somewhat justified in calling them out by name and showing how tuff a knife can be for less than half the cost.

 

[Dave Hunnicutt]

Competition and head to head testing is for people that can handle the truth. Cold Steel believes lock strength is one of the number one priorities for a folding knife because your fingers can't be replaced if it fails under hard use. I agree. Since I buy other knives beside Cold Steel, I want to know as much as a can about potential purchases. They are doing a good thing. Their tests actually made me glad I purchased the Spyderco Tatanka. The lock is strong enough and it has some qualities that CS knives do not.

The UFC revolutionized martial arts by showing what worked and what didn't work. One art was compared to another art in the most direct way possible. No room for fantasy or self delusion.

It is just common sense. If a person is offended by the tests there is something seriously wrong with their brain.

 

[ichor]

I find it amusing that some posts on this, and similar threads make statements like, "lock strength is not important if you know how to properly use a knife." This is akin to saying, "seat belts are not important if you know how to properly drive a car."

Unforeseen circumstances happen, and I for one am glad that, if I have a razor sharp object near my fingers during such a circumstance, it is as safe and reliable as possible. Not only that, but a safe and reliable as advertised by the manufacturer.

As for the comparative advertising, it is so common I think you would be hard pressed to make it through a day without coming across some. The basic premiss is to impress upon the customer that they will get more for their money if they buy from brand X than brand Y. I was at a grocery store earlier today, and they had big signs advertising their prices and quality against other store chains by name. No one in the store walked out saying they would never shop there again because the store compared themselves against another store. They just bought their goods and left. Getting butt-hurt by this type of marketing is just a bit silly, in my opinion.

+10 couldn't have said it better. The old days of not being able to directly compare your product with competitors went out with the Coke/Pepsi challenge ( I like Pepsi ;'))

 

[ichor]

It is just common sense. If a person is offended by the tests there is something seriously wrong with their brain.

Thank you Dave. ;')

 

[ichor]

I think it's amusing how many people are offering suggestions for comparison testing now that Cold Steel has begun airing these videos. It's telling that I haven't seen a single person say, "Test MY Adamas or Manix or Sebenza against one of your knives." And now we have a thread about how Cold Steel is only testing against "cheap" knives.

So how much money is Cold Steel supposed to spend buying competitors' products in order to prove that it makes the strongest, sharpest knives? How many successes are required to convince the naysayers? There will never be enough.


-Steve

C'mon....buying competitors' products for comparison tests is likely among the least Cold Steel expense.

 

[druid189]

C'mon....buying competitors' products for comparison tests is likely among the least Cold Steel expense.

Especially when they stack the results in their favor. Let them try the same tests against knives that might actually stack up solidly against them:

Extrema Ratio Knives

 

[ichor]

To me these tests are like comparing apples with oranges. If you compare Cold Steel with Emerson, IMO, now you're getting warmer. Cold Steel does have the strongest backlocks, but there is a tradeoff. Cold Steel also has stiff backlocks, and more difficult deployment and closure. I presently own 14 triad lock knives, so I can speak on this subject. The "other guys" have smoother, faster deploying knives. Comfort, aesthetics, and user enjoyment are at least as important as safety and strength. I don't push the limitations of my knives. I prefer machetes, saws, hatchets and screwdrivers for hard use duties.

I use the proper tools for hard use duties as well...when they're available. That said...I'm 69, have small hands, and arthritis/gout in all of my fingers. Frankly, I've had it up to here with you fucking grown men boo-hooing over how hard Cold Steel knives are to open and close. I have two daughters in their very early 40's who have demonstrated that they can open and close all of my knives with one hand (including CS Recon 1 and XL large Vaquero, with little difficulty. Grow up or get some physical therapy. Jesus!

 

[ichor]

C'mon....buying competitors' products for comparison tests is likely among the least Cold Steel expense.

Which cost 2-3-4 times as much? Gimme a break!

 

[insta9ves]

Especially when they stack the results in their favor. Let them try the same tests against knives that might actually stack up solidly against them:

Extrema Ratio Knives

Keep seeing you bringing this up over multiple threads. A couple of point regarding the ER RAO knife, which i own:

1. The knife probably weights a pound despite what you see online. try to put it in perspective, the knife has 6mm blade and is about 10.5 inch long. CS is testing something that is of similar dimension. Knife strength increases exponentially the thicker they get. It's pure physics. CS could have used a 6mm blade if they wanted to. A little reference about thickness vs strength here - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flexural_strength

2. The lock is similar to axis lock, just moving on Y-axis instead of X-axis. However unlike axis or triad lock, the RAO lock does not provide enough space for wear so even with normal use the lock can wear in quickly and start developing blade play quickly. See example here: https://youtu.be/QiBtHGfgZLI

3. The lock itself is not strong. What makes the knife strong is just the thickness and width of the blade, as well as the pin which you can manually insert between the tang and the blade. The pin is not part of the lock. Any folding knife can use the additional pin and be much stronger, but doesn't change the fact that it's not part of the lock. It's like having 2 car racing, car A is being towed by an airplane while car B is not. Do you really think that CS is weaker if it uses same thickness of blade and use a pin like the RAO does? Think objectively.

In before anyone says i'm CS employee, look up for the thread "fix your blade grind CS!" by me.

 

[druid189]

...And as I said in the other thread:

Keep seeing you bringing this up over multiple threads. A couple of point regarding the ER RAO knife, which i own:

1. The knife probably weights a pound despite what you see online. try to put it in perspective, the knife has 6mm blade and is about 10.5 inch long. CS is testing something that is of similar dimension. Knife strength increases exponentially the thicker they get. It's pure physics. CS could have used a 6mm blade if they wanted to. A little reference about thickness vs strength here - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flexural_strength

2. The lock is similar to axis lock, just moving on Y-axis instead of X-axis. However unlike axis or triad lock, the RAO lock does not provide enough space for wear so even with normal use the lock can wear in quickly and start developing blade play quickly. See example here: https://youtu.be/QiBtHGfgZLI

3. The lock itself is not strong. What makes the knife strong is just the thickness and width of the blade, as well as the pin which you can manually insert between the tang and the blade. The pin is not part of the lock. Any folding knife can use the additional pin and be much stronger, but doesn't change the fact that it's not part of the lock. It's like having 2 car racing, car A is being towed by an airplane while car B is not. Do you really think that CS is weaker if it uses same thickness of blade and use a pin like the RAO does? Think objectively.

In before anyone says i'm CS employee, look up for the thread "fix your blade grind CS!" by me.

True that I do [keep bring it up] and I don't particularly care that the RAO might weigh a pound. The issue is not overall weight, the issue is locking strength as outlined by the dictatorial edicts of lock strength, as required by Lynn Thompson.

The locking pin, when inserted makes all that moot. Since that pin is part of the overall locking mechanism, either the pin or the bolsters would have to give way for the blade to fold upon the user's fingers.

And yes....the pin IMO is part of the lock. Otherwise, it wouldn't be included for that purpose. It locks the blade in place, doesn't it? Even if the "lock" itself failed, you are saying that pin will not hold the blade open? Based upon what I see, if the knife itself had no "lock" but included that pin set up the way it is....it's still "locked open" and therefore is a lock.....just not a "conventional" lock as everyone looks at it. It's like a sliding bar on a door....no it doesn't use a key but it still "locks" the door:

[different picture but same concept]

and that pin for the knife is no different.

The pin becomes part of the locking system as soon as you slide it in place. This really isn't that unusual, as there are other folders that have a safety mechanism that require the user to engage it. Heck, even the earlier versions of the CRKT autolawks required that the user to engage the safety.

You must admit that it would be interesting to see CS go against the RAO in one of their abuse videos...I say abuse because CS would not replace your knife if you broke while performing those exact same test. Busse would, CS not so much and that's a shame.

One last thing, considering you can use a slipjoint or Opinel all day for cutting, does it truly matter how strong your folder lock is after a certain point, or if you're using the knife as it was intended to be used?

Exactly and what I've been saying all along.

 

[The Whip]

C'mon....buying competitors' products for comparison tests is likely among the least Cold Steel expense.

Perhaps it is. I don't have any idea. But it certainly isn't negligible. The Extrema Ratio test cost over $1,000 in competitors' products alone, which to me doesn't exactly equate to Cold Steel testing "Tri-Ad locks against cheap knives" (the OP's assertion).

My point is that since Cold Steel began airing the tests, lots of Blade Forum members have requested testing of specific knives, or complained that the tests were biased because Cold Steel was conducting them. But I haven't seen any of the complainers ponying up his personally owned knives for comparison or volunteering to start doing independent testing on his own time and dime.

Talk is cheap and anyone with an opinion and a computer can be a critic these days. Few people have the gumption to actually put their money where theirs mouths are. I applaud Cold Steel for spending its own money to prove its claims (and to test the claims of others). With the possible exception of Busse (which just followed Cold Steel's lead) and an occasional lock demo from Benchmade and Spyderco, I don't see any other manufacturers doing so. Certainly none is doing so on the scale of Cold Steel.

In my view, Cold Steel took those advertising dollars that they would've otherwise spent on ads in Blade magazine and put them to good use. It's been fun watching the results!

-Steve

 

[ichor]

Talk is cheap and anyone with an opinion and a computer can be a critic these days.

Few people have the gumption to actually put their money where theirs mouths are. I applaud Cold Steel for spending its own money to prove its claims
-Steve

There was no criticism in my statement. I simply made a statement that common sense tells me that the expense of buying competitor's knives for testing purposes is a relatively insignificant part of Lynn Thompson's budget. I stand by that statement. I love Cold Steel, And I applaud them as well. And yes...I notice that you have a computer and an opinion as well.

 

[The Whip]

There was no criticism in my statement. I simply made a statement that common sense tells me that the expense of buying competitor's knives for testing purposes is a relatively insignificant part of Lynn Thompson's budget. I stand by that statement. I love Cold Steel, And I applaud them as well. And yes...I notice that you have a computer and an opinion as well.

Nor was I critcizing you, only responding to your statement for a larger point. Sorry, ichor, if you thought I was singling you out. My comments were directed primarily at the chronic Cold Steel bashers who insist on posting so frequently in a subforum dedicated to a brand that they appear to loathe. For some of the outspoken "regulars" on this board, Cold Steel can't seem to do anything right, including choosing which competitors' knives they buy at their own expense to test. I'm getting tired of having to sift through pages of their tripe to read something useful or interesting about a brand that I actually enjoy and want to learn more about.

And for the record, I have no problem with opinions (though I certainly prefer facts or thoughtful observations). I don't have a lot of patience for constant criticism, though. Anyone can tear down; few can build. I prefer to hear from the builders.

-Steve

 

[insta9ves]

Nor was I critcizing you, only responding to your statement for a larger point. Sorry, ichor, if you thought I was singling you out. My comments were directed primarily at the chronic Cold Steel bashers who insist on posting so frequently in a subforum dedicated to a brand that they appear to loathe. For some of the outspoken "regulars" on this board, Cold Steel can't seem to do anything right, including choosing which competitors' knives they buy at their own expense to test. I'm getting tired of having to sift through pages of their tripe to read something useful or interesting about a brand that I actually enjoy and want to learn more about.

And for the record, I have no problem with opinions (though I certainly prefer facts or thoughtful observations). I don't have a lot of patience for constant criticism, though. Anyone can tear down; few can build. I prefer to hear from the builders.

-Steve

+1. Very well said Steve, I share your sentiment regarding "chronic Cold Steel bashers who insist on posting so frequently in a subforum dedicated to a brand that they appear to loathe...". 25+ pages over at the other thread and multiple pages on the testing thread and i see the same sh** over and over again.
Instead of discussing the real substance about what makes knives strong and constructive feedback about knife designs, all i hear is "not do this to your knife, not do that to your knife, this is not important, that is not important, CS can't cut, foreign made, mall ninja, fat, marketing, pry bar, no class, cheat, never buy anymore etc..."
Any good discussion is drowned by those who insists on proving their points repeatedly like a broken record. I wonder what those people are trying to achieve, other that spreading hate?

 

[ichor]

Nor was I critcizing you, only responding to your statement for a larger point. Sorry, ichor, if you thought I was singling you out. My comments were directed primarily at the chronic Cold Steel bashers who insist on posting so frequently in a subforum dedicated to a brand that they appear to loathe. For some of the outspoken "regulars" on this board, Cold Steel can't seem to do anything right, including choosing which competitors' knives they buy at their own expense to test. I'm getting tired of having to sift through pages of their tripe to read something useful or interesting about a brand that I actually enjoy and want to learn more about.

And for the record, I have no problem with opinions (though I certainly prefer facts or thoughtful observations). I don't have a lot of patience for constant criticism, though. Anyone can tear down; few can build. I prefer to hear from the builders.

-Steve

No sweat. For some reson I did think your post was directed at me, so I apologize as well.

"I'm getting tired of having to sift through pages of their tripe to read something useful or interesting about a brand that I actually enjoy and want to learn more about."

I agree and am weary of these "regulars" as well. Lynn Thompson can be annoying as hell, but I think Cold Steel does most things well. And I'll add, these folks who are criticizing Andrew Demko or his methods/objectivity, need a backhand. If they don't like Cold Steel why do they hang out here? Prolly a hangover from H.S. when thy'd do about anything to be around the cool kids.

 

[G. Scott H.]

2. The lock is similar to axis lock, just moving on Y-axis instead of X-axis. However unlike axis or triad lock, the RAO lock does not provide enough space for wear so even with normal use the lock can wear in quickly and start developing blade play quickly. See example here: https://youtu.be/QiBtHGfgZLI

Wow...These knives have never really appealed to me, so I've never looked into them in detail, but I always assumed they'd be uber tough, if nothing else.