What's up with Mid-Tech knives?

No, the Kit Knives are C2O. The others are marked Mid Tech.

Some of these threads make my head hurt.


A little bit of research will quickly show the difference between factory collaborations, maker collaborations, mid tech and handmade.
 
Originally posted by db
I'm really not sure I yet understand what all a mid tech knife Is. What is the difference between a Mid Tech and a kit knife? Almost sounds like it's the same thing, putting the parts togather.
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Kit knives are knives that are made by companies as parts and anyone can buy them and put them together. Mid-tech knives are designed by the maker and the parts are farmed out. There are many kit knives where much more work has been put into them by the person that finished it than is put into mid-tech knives, but this person did not come up with the original design.

Originally posted by mumbleypeg
A little bit of research will quickly show the difference between factory collaborations, maker collaborations, mid tech and handmade.
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The problem is that many people don't do any research before they purchase a knife. Many people that purchase knives are not very knife savvy and could easily be taken by an unscrupulous individual. I realize that these same people won't have a clue what a mid-tech knife is either, but marking the blade "Mid-Tech" will at least show that the maker is doing all he can to avoid this problem.
 
Mumble I wasn't talking about Kit Carson, or the C²O knives as kit knives. They sound like customs to me from Carson's earlier post.

Kieth, If I was to buy a kit knife and finish it, then sell them, could I then call and or mark it a Mid-Tech? seems I would be doing the same thing as the Mid-techs are. Getting the parts made from someone else, doing some level of finishing, and then selling them.
I'm getting more confused about these lables the more I read about lableing a knife one thing or the other.
 
Kit knives are one area where the unreliable middle man gets to shine. At a recent gun show, one man was selling DDR folding kit knives and telling the truth about his product. They were priced about 30% more than the kit costs from Koval. Three rows down, the same kit knife was being sold as a custom for 2 times the cost. I've also overheard the "maker's patter" at one show where their DDR kit knives were being sold as knives assembled from the best available parts and customized during assembly and finishing. This is true, but also sounds somewhat like a mid-tech operation.
 
kit knives have been a debated topic over the years... I do not consider them mid tech. When you see a level of time and finish that someone like Coop puts into a kit knife , it is way more than just a kit knife -- WAY more , not sure what to call it , other than bada$$ .


But what is in a name ? I look at a knife , if it appeals to me and I have the $$$ I buy it , mid tech , custom , whatever , matters not to me at all .

I was able to handle a few Ken Onion Midetechs at Blade West ( they were not for sale but were drool fodder only ) , I was very impressed.

I have a feeling the debate about Mid Techs will be here as long as the Sebby vs Strider , 9mm vs 45acp , ford vs chevy debates.
 
Trouble with some of this hybrid stuff is its not chevy vs. ford. Its someone selling an impala at slightly less than cadillac prices and trying to make you believe it's really a cadillac at a great price.

What's the purpose of a midtech knife? Is it to increase production to satisfy demand, since a maker's backlog is big? But why increase production, just slow demand by increasing price? There's boatloads of knife makers out there, let the newer ones take care of some of this extra demand. Let the market drive up the prices of the fully hand made knives by well known makers. Or is the maker tired of the handmade route and wants to try production as a new challenge?
 
Originally posted by brownshoe


What's the purpose of a midtech knife? Is it to increase production to satisfy demand, since a maker's backlog is big? But why increase production, just slow demand by increasing price? There's boatloads of knife makers out there, let the newer ones take care of some of this extra demand. Let the market drive up the prices of the fully hand made knives by well known makers. Or is the maker tired of the handmade route and wants to try production as a new challenge?
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Knifemakers I have talked to are not rich by any means and I doubt many do it for the $$$ , going midtech gets more knives in the hands of potential custom buyers. Allows you to get a far better than production company knife for just a few dollars more .


Increase price ? Why ? As much as Emerson customs sell for on the secondary , Ernie could increase his prices but he doesn't. Same for Onions and Blackwoods.

Some guys aint just about the $$$ , they are in it for the love of the blade .
 
Originally posted by db
Kieth, If I was to buy a kit knife and finish it, then sell them, could I then call and or mark it a Mid-Tech? seems I would be doing the same thing as the Mid-techs are. Getting the parts made from someone else, doing some level of finishing, and then selling them.
I'm getting more confused about these lables the more I read about lableing a knife one thing or the other.
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These would not be mid-tech because you did not come up with the original design for the knife.

Originally posted by brownshoe
Trouble with some of this hybrid stuff is its not chevy vs. ford. Its someone selling an impala at slightly less than cadillac prices and trying to make you believe it's really a cadillac at a great price.
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I personally don't think this is the case. Take the Branton mid-tech knives for example. These knives sell for one third the price of the Brend custom knives and are themselves excellent knives. Another example is the Simonich mid-tech Raven. It sells for $150.00 less than the custom version. That is one third less than the custom Raven. Materials are the same, it is just the manufacturing process that allows for the reduced price. Is it a lower quality knife? Maybe a little, but then again, maybe not.

What's the purpose of a midtech knife? Is it to increase production to satisfy demand, since a maker's backlog is big? But why increase production, just slow demand by increasing price? There's boatloads of knife makers out there, let the newer ones take care of some of this extra demand. Let the market drive up the prices of the fully hand made knives by well known makers. Or is the maker tired of the handmade route and wants to try production as a new challenge?
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It is to increase production, reduce cost and increase profit. All good things from a business perspective. These makers are afterall, in business. If they increase the pricing of their knives they may reduce sales. This is risky and may prove disasterous. Sending customers to other knife makers may be a philanthropic thing to do, but once again is not good business. During bad economic times the market will not drive up the prices of custom handmade knives. There has been an ecomonic turndown over the last couple of years and mid-tech knives are a way that some makers are looking to fight this situation. I doubt these makers are tired of the handmade route, they are just trying to improve and advance their businesses and I wish them all the best in this endeavor.

Mid-tech knives have a place. They offer very good quality at reasonable prices. There will always be room for this kind of value in the knife business.
 
As I sat here visiting the forums I kept hearing a word in the background, on the TV.
Diversification..And I probably spelled it wrong. Everyone is doing it.
 
So, per discussion, Midtech knives are to increase production and diversify the offerings of what was once a knifemaker but is now a knife designer and manufacturer.

Where then is the difference between a William Henry or a CRK and a midtech? Both are in-house designed knives handcrafted from available or in-house parts. If there is no difference, what is the difference between mid-tech and Spyderco or Benchmade? These company's knives are hand assembled, CNCed, some grinding done by hand. Is it production run size or the lack of a "designer" for their run of the mill product?

Blade magazine gave the 2003 American Made award to the midtech Simonich Raven. This is I believe a manufacturing award, thus in their eyes midtech is no different than other manufacturing shops. I guess that's kind of where my thoughts lie, when you boil it all down, midtech is a set of identical knives manufactured in a small factory. The only problem would be if marketing leads the unaware consumer to think differently.
 
Originally posted by brownshoe
what is the difference between mid-tech and Spyderco or Benchmade?
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A few thousand knives per day ;)

If you really want to know the difference you should go to your local bookstore and pick up the latest issues of Knives Illustrated, Blade and Knives 2004. All of them have great articles on Mid Tech knives.
One of the three articles should be able to get you the information that you are looking for.

Bobby
 
Originally posted by brownshoe


Take for example the new AG Russle Dozier line, current offering the Modified Personal. All the work is done out of house except for heat treat, final grind and handle attachment. The only difference between this product and others is the stamp Arkansas Knives vs. Arkansas Made. The price difference per AG's catalog between the modified personal and the personal is $10. However the personal has those butt ugly yellow handles. How is someone who buys this knife from a knife shop or middleman going to know what he's really getting? (AG does distribute to stores and gun show purveyors.)

A lot of knives are sold by middlemen. These guys often are bald face liars, I found more than a few at knife shows. Sometimes they don't know their stock and will just invent something. These new modified customs, mid-tech, collaborations, etc. give these guys a real chance to rip people off.. . . . Either way, the smart consumer now more than ever has to buy his knife from a maker or from a dealer he knows and trusts.
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Excuse me Mr. Brownshoe, I am a middle man, is your comment directed at me? Please name the gun show purveyors that I distribute to, I would be really interested in knowing who they are.

Please read the discription of the Dozier knives again, you have mistated how they are made.

The yellow handles?. . . probably the most popular of the micrarta.

A. G.
 
Gary (Brownshoe) Swenson:

The issues that you bring up are valid but defy simple solutions. I hold AG Russell and his company in the highest regard. His return policy is the most generous in the industry. This type of discussion is similar to the custom versus production thread or the which is tougher, Strider or CRK? There are no simple answers. Like I said in an earlier response, let the buyer beware. Sure there are a lot of guys out there that will misrepresent their product and sell a lot of their stuff. I have a friend at work that makes fun of me because I will spend more than $20 for a knife yet he drives a Mecedes Benz. He buys a $2 Chinese POS and thinks that he is so much smarter than me. I say to each his own. I spend thousands of dollars on knives and drive an old Honda Accord. It depends on what you value. There happens to be a large market for cheap knock off knives made in China or Pakistan and some of these middlemen are making a living satisfying this demand. Many people don't have the option of spending a lot of money on knives as they have a limited income. The mid techs may get some of these people into the knife market. The quality of the knife and honesty of the purveyor are very important. I think that a very high percentage of people will be happy with the lower quality stuff. So Gary you have never bought a knife that you were not happy with? For me collecting knives has been a process of buying what you like and not always getting what I paid for. I just chalk it up to experience. If a $2 knife works for you then that is great. Heck with the money I spend on knives I could afford a knife like that and throw it away after every use and still have money left over. With all due respect Gary I think that the motives for your posts are inflame us knife nuts. I feel sorry for you.:rolleyes: :barf: ;)
 
AGR, I am familiar with your line and am a customer of your catolog. I have seen your line sold at two gunshows in the midwest by the same person, KS and MO area, plus in a knife store in eastern PA, maybe Cutlery Shoppe, but I'm not sure. Both told me they use you as a distributor for some of your selected products and knives. They had products that were AGR "exclusives" in your catalog. They were reputable purveyors and did not misrepresent your product. I've seen a knife mag ad a few years ago that listed stores that had your line.

AGR, I carefully read the description in your catalog and website more than once. I was kind of suprised by the development and the lack of price difference. However, if I misrepresented the modified personal, I am sorry. I believed my statment was based upon the facts provided in the catolog and on the website. However, the catalog is not specific as to exactly how much is done by Dozier himself, how much by Dozier shop workers and how much is done outside.

I would say that the difference in maker's mark or name between the two Doziers is not a big difference nor does it indicate any difference in construction personnel and methods. You'd have to read your catalog to know the differencne. This coupled with the only $10 in price makes one wonder if your markup on the new line is more significant than on the old hand crafted line of Doziers. As far as what happens to the knives once they leave your domain, I have seen used Doziers, sold in your catalog, being sold at gun and knife shows.

Mr. Branton, I'll run across the articles sooner or later. However earlier articles on the subject were vague as to how much work is done by the "big name" and how much is done inside and outside the shop. My conclusion from these past articles is that it seemed to not be something new, but just small batch factory production. This has been done by others before now.
 
Brownshoe

What difference does it make? The knives are sold less than our regular knives and you are told by A.G.Russell that the blades were ground out side of this shop and I'm telling you that EVERY THING ELSE IS DONE HERE. I value your opinion as a customer and customers are the most important part of this business. But it does seem that you know more about my business than I do and I would like to know who your source is so that I can correct that person. I have never misled my customers as to who makes Dozier straight knives. The knives are made by me and my shop help and they are priced honest. You can visit my shop any time you are in the area and see what we do.

Your servant
Bob Dozier

I make my folders
 
Mr. Dozier, my earlier statement was based upon what AGR has in his on-line and hard copy catalog. The on-line catalog says the knives are cut, double disk ground, and then flat ground outside of your shop. It says you do the heat treatment and assembly in your shop. It is unclear about the finish grind.

What difference does it make, maybe not much when it comes to function. But to those who collect, it may make a difference. It makes a $10 difference in price, so personnally, if I was in the market, I'd buy one done totally by yourself.
 
Originally posted by Keith Montgomery
These would not be mid-tech because you did not come up with the original design for the knife.

Thanks Keith, but I am having a little trouble with the "original design" part. Is there really any original designs that haven't gotten or been done before? Other than that I have seen some kit knives that it's hard to tell were from the original patern that they were made from. So far the small factory term seems to fit or really mean the same to me as Mid-tech, But maybe I'm still not getting it. What ever they call them I like what I like, and don't buy what I don't like.
Good to see so many opinions on this so far, good thread as much as it's confused me :)
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Brown shoe

Get things in order. I don't post much on the blade for, but do watch it often so as to know what customers are saying. A.G.says that I have my AR. KNIVES DOZIERs cut outside my shop then heat treat them myself. They are then disk ground and flat ground, then returned to this shop for finishing. They do not need to be reground, just buff finished. They are then finish just like our hand made knives. I don't recall ever calling them hand made, although they are just as good performers. For the customers that want total hand made, they can get them here. What is your gripe? Don't buy from dealers if you don't trust them. I will not make you a knife that is made only by myself. I do not need to do this as our reputation is based on high quality knives that work and that are priced rite. There many good makers that make knives in one man shops that will make one for you. Usually at a much higher price.

If you have any other questions, please address them to me and I will gladly answer them publicly.

Bob D.

Buy the way, there would not be any purpose in any one having their blades ground out of their shop and then regrinding them. I don't think that this happens.
 
Originally posted by brownshoe
Mr. Dozier, my earlier statement was based upon what AGR has in his on-line and hard copy catalog. The on-line catalog says the knives are cut, double disk ground, and then flat ground outside of your shop. It says you do the heat treatment and assembly in your shop. It is unclear about the finish grind.
Brownshoe, for those who have not seen our catalog, I am putting the copy here.

"Bob Dozier's flat ground knives which are marked "Arkansas Knives" rather than "Arkansas Made" include a fair amount of outsourced work. The blades are laser cut, double disk ground and then flat ground by outside sources, instead of being bandsawed, surface ground and then hollow ground in his own shop. Bob insists on doing the heat treat himself to assure the quality of heat-treat that he feels D2 must have. After the flat grinding the blade is finish ground and the knife is CONSTRUCTED in Bob's shop here in Northwest Arkansas. You only save a few dollars over the knives he makes completely by hand, BUT you seldom have to wait for delivery."

Now Gary you have twice substituted the word assembly for constructed, if you do not see the diference then we can hardly carry on a dialog as we do not have the same understanding of the English language.

Bob does not assemble the handles, he cuts the slabs of handle material to shape, drills and counter bores it and then when it is glued to the blade he hand shapes it.

I can understand your questioning some of the practices taking place, but why use Bob and I we both do an honest job and tell it like it is. I do not think thwat either of us has ever done you wrong, or anybody else, yet you seem to be trying to say that we do or have. WHY??

I suggest that you start over with someone who is doing wrong or is lying about what they are doing and leave us out altogether.

I do not believe that you intended to harm either of us but it is working out that way.

all the best, A. G.
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I think custom makers need to be careful here.
Generally a "mid-tech" knife has a machine ground blade. A maker can damage his reputation unless he clearly states which blades are hand ground and which are not, perhaps with a different logo. The public can be easily confused as a hand ground blade does (and should) sell for a higher price. It is important to separate, in the customer's mind, what is hand ground and what is not.
I know this from personal experience as, over the years, I have been accused (unfairly and wrongly) of not grinding my own blades. Every blade that has ever left my shop has been hand ground by me. Yet some pinheads insist on accusing me of cheating my customers.
That said, I'll give a more current example of what I mean.
I am coming out with a line of production knives in January (prototypes at NY in NOV) which will be of my design and individually tested by my hand BUT not made by me. (Brand name "American Made" because they will be produced in the ol' U.S. of A.). These knives will be clearly marked "Bob Terzuola Design" so as to differentiate them from my hand made knives. Since I will be the sole source of these knives, I think it is important that my customers be able to clearly identify my hand work from the production work.
I suggest all knife makers do the same by marking their machine made (or mid-tech) blades differently from their hand ground ones.
 
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