What's up with Mid-Tech knives?

Ive been watching this thread with interest and some amusement. I wont go into and long explanation on Mid-Tech versus handmade versus factory made. That sentence kind of explains it. All my Mid Tech knives are very clearly marked Mid-Tech. My hand mades are marked "Clancy Mt."

db, kit knives are very much different than Mid-Tech's. The easiest way for me to explain it is if you buy a kit knife from any one selling the kits you and assemble it yourself or buy one that some one else has assembled it is still a "kit knife"

If you were to design a knife, make several prototypes till you got it where you wanted it and there was the demand for a less expensive version of the "custom or handmade" version then invest thousands of dollars in CAD work, CNC maching, heat treating and grinding etc all to your EXACT specs then assemble these parts with a lot of work then you have a Mid-Tech. I think Mid-Tech is a great term, and although they have been around for quite some time the term is a good way for the customer to know how they are made. Thanks to Ken Onion for coining this term for the cutlery industry.

Thats my dimes worth, even if you only wanted 2 cents worth. (Inflation) :)
 
It would have made very interesting conversation if you had decided to mark them COCK on the blade. I can just imagine how some knife enthusiasts would react if i had asked them, "Hey wanna see my COCK?" :D

Just priceless...

Andrew Lim

Originally posted by Kit Carson
Keith,
Good question. We hotly debated that issue for months. I liked Phil's approach (COCK = Carson/Obenauf/CarsonKnives):) but decided to just mark them C2O (small raised 2) for Carson/Carson/Obenauf or C squared.
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brownshoe...Gary Swenson, Gary Swenson...brownshoe? Really? I thought Gary Swenson was banned from this forum. Multitudes of times, if I am not mistaken.
 
Yeah Keith, Gary has been banned and his current reincarnation is brownshoe. I don't know how he does it but he seems to have more lives than a cat. I could give my unedited opinion of him and I assure you it wouldn't be flattering. But that would be just what Gary would want and I don't want to play his game. He seems to revel in the trouble he causes and it's a shame that decent hardworking members of our forum waste their time answering his questions. As I said earlier I feel sorry for him. As long as he comes on here and gets a big response he will be around. When we ignore him and his rantings he will fade away.:rolleyes: :barf: ;)
 
I think Bob Terzula is right, it is confusing for the customer. Knifemakers, designers, or small factories need to be careful or they will dilute the meaning of their name. There are knife designers whose name no longer means "quality" or "innovative design".

I think makers need to have it clear what is from their hand, what is from a group under their control, and what is small batch manufacturing. One way, done years ago, was by Boye. His hand done pieces have his signature. Clearly done by his hand. His small batch factory work has a factory logo (catctus) blade material type (BDS or BDC) and a stamped name.

Mr. Dozier, this thread is a good example of the confusion that can be brought into the mind of even a slightly educated consumer, myself. I thought you made your knives all by yourself, it appears from your statement that you don't. My ignorance compounded my confusion. I am sorry. From AGR's quote from his catalog, "You only save a few dollars over the knives he makes completely by hand" implies the handmade knives are all done by "you". I gather now that the regular Personal is all hand done in your shop, but not all by you, I guess you have a small group of shop workers. Is this right?

AGR, I don't see how this conversation hurts your business. It is about a product you offer, but I didn't disparage it's quality, price or your company. I did use it as an example of something that confused me, but I didn't believe it to be fraudulent, just confusing. I did say I didn't like the yellow handles and maybe you didn't like my comparison of the price between the personal and modified personal. Discussing knife makers and purveyors is definitely on-topic for this forum. I said it early on, and I'll say it again, I am a customer of yours, not big, only about $500 in the last 4 years. I buy from you because I like your style, your phone service, and your offerings.

Finally, I am not gary swenson et. al., that's why I am not banned. He posted on a thread I started and was nailed by Spark. I'd like an apology from Scott Dog for slurring my good name, just 'cause I am not a sebenza fan like him.
 
Brownshoe I apolozize. I'm sorry if I am mistaken. Spark indicated that you were Gary. If that is not the case then I am truly sorry.
 
Mr. Dog, Spark has not said I was gary swenson on any thread I know of.
 
Originally posted by brownshoe
Mr. Dog, Spark has not said I was gary swenson on any thread I know of.
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Some guys just cann't graciously accept an apology. Give it a rest already..
 
Brownshoe:

I did some research and you are indeed right about the Swenson thing. I was wromg and my comments were uncalled for.
 
Thanks Mr. Dog.

I was rereading some things on this thread and I am curious about two things.

Am I the only one who would believe the Dozier hand made knives were done by him? Per the AGR catalog quote above: "Bob Dozier's flat ground knives which are marked "Arkansas Knives" rather than "Arkansas Made" include a fair amount of outsourced work...You only save a few dollars over the knives he makes completely by hand, BUT you seldom have to wait for delivery."

Second, Mr. Dozier states that "A.G.says that I have my AR. KNIVES DOZIERs cut outside my shop then heat treat them myself...They are then finished just like our hand made knives. I don't recall ever calling them hand made, although they are just as good performers." The AGR site sells these knives in the section called "handmade" knives, however it appears that Mr. Dozier doesn't believe they are "handmade." This is an artifact of the set up of the AGR website, since the AGR website only has two types of knives, handmade and production, there is not a section for mid-tech. However, this can cause confusion in the consumer.

I think this points out that to the buyer, some of this is confusing. Makers need to clearly state how they do things and as they change, their markings, literature and website should reflect their new way of doing business. A good example is the Ruana knives. In their catalog and website, they are clear that their knives are hand made by them, forged, ground and finished in their shop, but it's all a team effort not an individual knifemaker.
 
I find this discussion interesting. It was a few years ago when there was a big deal made about Chris Reeve knives being "production".

My position is the knife must stand on it's own feet by only one measure, quality.

There's no relationship between quality and "handmade", "midtech" and "production". A perfect example is again Chris Reeve, by most peoples measure of quality they even exceed some "handmade".

While I think it's useful for a buyer to know how the knife is made, I think they are misguided if that's how they decide to buy a knife or not.
 
Production, custom, handmade, mid-tech. A quality blade is a quality blade....PERIOD. I don't give a rat's a$$ if one person or a hundred people worked on it. I equally don't give a rat's a$$ if it was done by hand or by machine. The final product will either stand on it's own or fall on it's a$$.
I own "handmade", mass produced, and so called "mid-tech" knives. Quality can be found in any manufacturing means, so can poor quality.
If a "custom" maker chooses to go the "mid-tech" route, then yes, he should mark the knives accordingly. If I bought a knife that was supposed to be "handmade/custom" and found out that more than one person built it, I would feel like the maker mis-represented the product. I would also not be able to trust said maker again.
If you made it yourself...GREAT, put your name on it and be proud. If it was a joint effort, mark it as such and be done with it.
Personally I love the "mid-tech" way of thinking. It opens up more designs to those of us who can't spare the extra cash. As long as the quality is there, and the customer is treated fairly, then everybody wins.

Paul
 
Originally posted by the45guy
I think Dave summed up the whole mid tech debate in a few words.
great post Dave !
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Agreed.

There are some fine production knives out there (such as CRK) and there are probably some poor quality handmades. What a knife is called shouldn't matter.

You should buy what you like, and understand what you are getting. I'd love a Simonich custom, but I'd want to beat the hell out of it, so maybe a Mid-tech would be a better value for me.

Production, mid-tech, and custom knives all have their place. I'm glad some makers have decided to offer some lower cost versions of their knives. I for one don't care how they are made.
 
Going back twenty years, while hand made stuff could be crap, it could also be the highest expresion of "quality". Production always implied compromises to something that was held in esteem, if not compromises in function. What has happened with CAD, CNC, and all that happy stuff is that for some products the tables have been turned. You can't make it better by hand. At this stage handwork still has a huge range, but it's an interesting change (though of course everyone knows this, I'm not saying anything new)

My question is what can be done better by hand, in the basic knife, I'm talking higher degrees of plish that one simply chooses not to put on a mid tech (say), or stuff like scrimshaw that might still be largely hand. I am talking about a basic nice looking knife that has smooth modern lines, and simple fittings. Even if there is a hand made version of this knife, what about it could possibly de better done by hand? Once the answer becomes "nothing", handmade has no meaning in that case. What of someones midetech knives were better than their handmade, perfectly possible.

On the kit thing, it's true that kits could be made using midtech or hand, or production techniques, or all of the above. What is kit knife like about the midtech knives is the idea that they start with a stack of parts.

I've sure heard makers say to other new makers, don't buy a kit, learn to do your own stuff. Anyone who does that is going to feel a greater sense of achievement in the result. The knife that doesn't start from parts is more highly prized, it's more personal. But that stuff doesn't apply to pros, there isn't any achievement if they grind a perfect blade, and what does it mater if they profiled it or laser cut it. It only goes back to the old way of looking at things where the deciding factor was the hand, or even a perception of handwork that comes from the premise that it is more difficult or valuable.
 
I agree Protatical, midtech and factory made knives can be and are better than many handmade knives. You only have to go to a gun/knife show to find handmade knives with problems. I do believe that a certain amount of hand craftsmanship can benefit even the most highly machined equipment. For example, are not some of the higher end engines basically assembled by hand, thus a "mid-tech?" I also believe that there are craftsmen who take pride in the "hand" part of their work, do it for years, and have no need for mechanization. This is not only seen in knives, but other types of crafts such as furniture and cloth. Cloth is a good example of a product that can be made better by machine in all ways than by hand, but there is both a market for handmade cloth and plenty of people who supply it.
 
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