Wheeler's Steel * Stuck in the metal with you

that some of you find this thread to be inspiring is the greatest compliment:)

PS. someone told me that they thought that I'm helping Nick make the knife, so I thought I should put it out there that all I'm doing is posting the pics and their captions as he sends them my way. Not that I'd be able to offer any meaningful help except maybe walking the dog.
 
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Thanks for tuning in guys :)

Jason and Dan--- I am crossing my fingers and toes that I can make Atlanta happen! :)

Not to worry too much on the hand-sanding- I only hand sand damascus to a "dirty" 600 grit finish before etching. Got started last night, but I'm at Angi's now and we're driving to the coast for some air. She's the most AMAZINGLY supportive woman with everything I do, but especially this... and she more than deserves a day of me thinking about something other than knives. :) Well... I'll still be thinking about them... just not working on them ;) :D

More to come by tomorrow night or Monday morning :)
 
Love the way you actually test the knife to ensure that it performs good as functionally expected in field works :thumbup:

Congrats again to you Nick :)

mohd
 
This is a ton of fun to watch unfold, thanks again Lorien and Nick, for all this information.
 
I really appreciate you guys taking the time and effort to let us see this WIP.

With the Rc tests and the cutting/chopping tests, I still have a question.

Did I understand that you quenched the blade at 1410 degrees? Did I miss something?

Robert
 
I just worked my way through this entire thread. AMAZING! Getting to see the whole process from the very start was awesome. Lorien, you are going to be getting one damn fine knife. Congrats! Nick, your skills are off the charts. Thanks to you both for taking the time to share the wip. I can't wait to see more!
 
Hey Nick,

Looks like you're pretty good doing things one handed while snapping photos. (There's a smiley that might fit here, but I promised to never use it.) How's that for an opening line?! I hope it doesn't diminish my chances at picking your brain as I have loads of questions. Pretty impressive edge testing. I'm inspired, but need help understanding your heat management, if you're up for it?

  • What temperature do you do your forge welding of the billet at?
  • Do you do anything HT-wise after forge welding the billet and before commencing the forging of the blade?
  • What temperature range do you forge the blade at?
  • What temp and process do you do for the normalizing prior to grinding?
  • Final HT....
    1. Heat blade to 1600°F and quench into Parks 50 (what temp is the oil?) What is this step for? I remember reading about it somewhere. Carbon diffusion? Carbides? Grain reduction? Or?
    2. Reheat and quench at 1410°F. Is the oil still at the same temp?
    3. Temper at 400°F to start with. How long's the soak? How many times? Did you have to go higher?
Please forgive me if my questions are inappropriate for this forum. I am more used to the makers forum where they are more or less expected.

BTW, I like that straightening/tweaking tool. Looks like it sure beats a crescent wrench.

All the best, Phil

======================================

EDIT: Nick thoroughly posted correct details below.
 
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those questions are TOTALLY appropriate for this thread:thumbup::cool:
 
Hi guys :)

Robert and Phyl, I'm glad you guys asked questions!!! :) I know this is posted in the "collectors' forum" but many of the guys who hang out in here are almost as interested in the tiny little details of construction as other makers are. A well informed buyer makes smarter purchases! :)

The quick answer to both of you is: I just didn't get all of my steps photographed and sent to Lorien.

I also could have sent Lorien more detailed captions for these... it's just that I have about 300 photos on my computer at this point and it gets kind of confusing which ones are worth editing/sending and which are not.

So here's what I did to it. (I'll try to answer what both Robert and Phyl asked with this)

I forge welded the billet somewhere around 2300F. I used to have a temp gauge in the forge but it quit working and I just haven't replaced it. But I've done it enough times to have a pretty good idea where it's at.

Before forging the main billet down to barstock, I do a couple normalizing cycles on it.

Forging temp for the blade? HOT... lol. I start hot (up around 2000F) for things like knocking the point down, and then I just keep forging at a lower heat as I go.

I like to do most of my real rough grinding prior to going into the salt bath because the scale will really do a number on the salt. The salt will eat the scale right off the blade which seems nice, but it will then cause all kinds of nasty decarb on the next blade you put it in the salt.

So this blade was forged to shape, and then I ran a higher temp range normalizing cycle that's more or a "stress relief" up around 1600-1700F. In my experience, that will help alleviate any of the nasty stress that may be left over from forging, but it does not refine the grain.

Then after it cooled to black, I stuck it in the Paragon at 1450 for about 15 minutes. This left it plenty soft to grind and drill the tang hole (for the wire) but not neccessarrily in great shape.

So once it was all rough ground, I did set of descending temp thermal cycles in the salt. The first one was 1700, take it out and cool to black, 1600 ctb, 1500 ctb, and 1400 ctb (three times on the 1400).

Then I ramp the salt back up to 1450, hung the blade in there and let the quench oil heat up while also letting the blade soak at temperature for 15 minutes.

THEN I pull the blade out and quench it. I don't quench it before then at all.

I left the blade in the tempering kiln for 1 hour at 400, took it out and let it cool to room temp, and then repeated the process. When I did the Rockwell test and it was too hard, I upped the temp to 450F. and tempered it three more times. I don't know that 3 are required, in fact I think two is plenty, but it's just a little time in the oven and requires almost zero work on my part.... so other than the time it takes, I figure, "what can it hurt?"

Hope this helps! :)
 
Then I ramp the salt back up to 1450, hung the blade in there and let the quench oil heat up while also letting the blade soak at temperature for 15 minutes.

THEN I pull the blade out and quench it. I don't quench it before then at all.\

Thanks for clearing this up Nick. I somehow thought you were quenching at 1410, and I knew (in the back of my feeble mind) that this was too low.

Now we are on the same page. Thanks my man, and I really do appreciate the WIP.

I sure hope to see you again in Atlanta.

Robert
 
Thanks for the detailed explanation Nick! I'm grateful to have my misunderstandings cleared up. It would be just like me to try out some of what I thought was the way Nick Wheeler did it and for me to be all wrong.

You sure go the distance with your pre-quench heat cycles. Is it all just to relieve stress or are there other carbon, carbide and/or grain structure intentions with them?
 
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Nick,
Thanks for running through all that, your understanding, care and skill here are most apparent especially with the clarity of you answers and comments. Kudos.

Eric
 
well it looks like Joe's wish will come true today;)

Lots of new pics are going up later this morning, so check back in 3 or 4 hours. There are 6374 new pictures of Nick hand sanding this blade along with detailed descriptions of each particle of sand paper grit:D
Just kidding, but seriously, if you have an interest in how to hand finish a blade, the next few posts will fill in ALL of the blanks!
 
There are 6374 new pictures of Nick hand sanding this blade along with detailed descriptions of each particle of sand paper grit:D

It's too bad his damascus blades don't get the final polish with powdered baby unicorn fur, but since he's going to go ahead and etch it anyway, it's quite understandable. ;)

Roger
 
he uses ground up baby unicorn hooves for damascus. Very fine but not so fine as the fabled baby unicorn fur powder he saves for his hamon display knives.
Included in the next series of pictures will be a hunting expedition, where Shadow tracks a baby unicorn and then kills it by tearing out its throat, and Nick chops off its cute baby hooves with an enchanted sword. He'll go through, step by step, how he processes the hooves into a fine paste for polishing this blade. Fortunately there are still unicorns in the pacific northwest. I hear they hang out in Portland mostly.
 
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