When is everyone okay with copying designs?

[Will Batayte]

Kevin John makes counterfeits of CRK, Strider, Hinderer and likely others. Some of which are branded as such and some that are sterile. They are clearly made to deceive the customer. I know he has put out some of his "own" work. Who even knows who he is!

Clearly made to deceive when they say kevin john triumph precision on the blade or lack the makers marks. In the watch world that would be considered a homage. You'd have to be one of the duller knives in the drawer to mistake a KJ knife for the real deal

 

[Will Batayte]

Entitlement syndrome?

What? How does that make him sound entitled? That's a real issue that does go on.

 

[Will Batayte]

Is anyone here familiar with how Monsanto puts seed saving companies out of business?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/10/monsanto-wins-lawsuit_n_3417081.html

Essentially, Monsanto sued 147 farmers and seed savers as well as threatened to sue many more because if their patented genes end up getting mixed in with a non-Monsanto crop, that's patent infringement.


The other problem is one that those familiar with Edison will understand. Most of Edison's innovations came from assembling previous smaller innovations into new combinations. Had he not had the enormous resources to buy up those patents, he would not have been able to invent the motion picture camera, for instance. The inability to build something new out of existing technology due to existing patents is an obvious example of stifled innovation.

Setting people on ignore doesn't really work very well . . . or at least it hasn't for me. Problem is you'll be in a thread where someone you have set on ignore is involved in a conversation with someone you don't and you can't figure out what the heck is going on between them (and maybe others as well) because you can only see one side of the conversation. Best thing to do is just ignore them manually, if you know what I mean.

It's kinda odd to want to ignore someone on a forum where you can either choose to read their post or not. Not to mention personally I find the different opinions and ideas interesting. I guess maybe I'd hit ignore if someone was harassing me or something but because their ideas differ from my own? Not likely.

 

[KenHash]

Absolutely not. I'm a collector, and I don't really like to part with anything in my collection. My counterfeit Spyderco has turned out to be a great beater/work knife. I'd rather not use a $100+ knife for some of the hardcore stuff I do at work, so a clone works well for that. I really enjoy comparing the clones to their genuine counterparts too. It really is amazing the what the Chinese can build for as cheap as they do it.

I've known a few people who are into the counterfeit knives. They seem to belong in one of two camps. Either they refuse to spend the money for the real thing altogether, or having the counterfeit just makes them eventually break down and buy a genuine knife.

So you like to collect and don't sell off your knives. You must have a load of money to be able to add to your collection
without selling anything off. But if you have that much money I dont understand why you're buying counterfeits in the
first place. I only know two kinds of buyers, those who are deceived, and those who don't care ior can't afford a real one.

 

[Gadfly22]

I am always OK with copying designs (less so with counterfeits, but lets stick with the OP's headline question). That's because I am a free market believer in capitalism, as practiced by the great robber barons of American history. Copying designs and selling for less allows me - the American consumer - to conserve my resources while fulfilling my desire for the looks of a certain knife at a price acceptable to me.

I break no laws in pursuit of my free market beliefs because buying and possessing clones (or even counterfeits) is perfectly legal. Just as under Prohibition it was not illegal to drink or possess alcohol -- just to manufacture or sell it. And like my noble ancestors who flouted Prohibition (and I assure you they must have, knowing my family), I too stand up for my rights to buy and hold knives that might violate unfair and overreaching copyright and trademark law.

In short, as a free American consumer in what should be a free and open market, I am also always looking to find the most value for the least price in order to keep that market operating at maximum efficiency. I have no responsibility to police that market, to pay more than I want to for any item on sale anywhere or to help keep ineffective businesses in business or even to increase their business in any way.

 

[B34NS]

It's kinda odd to want to ignore someone on a forum where you can either choose to read their post or not. Not to mention personally I find the different opinions and ideas interesting. I guess maybe I'd hit ignore if someone was harassing me or something but because their ideas differ from my own? Not likely.

I'm with you, I enjoy having my perspective challeneged here and have the opportunity to discuss. Some just need to harden the fuck up. It's just the internet.


One thing I've thought of from this thread is the massive amount of resources and labor wasted making copies. Just from a human logistics scale how much it really takes to produce a counterfiet anything. On top of the the ecological impact of harvesting raw elements, refinement, transportation, production, and distribution. Not to mention just a huge waste of our species time not making something good.

 

[RedLynx]

I am always OK with copying designs (less so with counterfeits,

Less so but still not against? I don't care, just asking. But since this thread is about copying designs, and sometimes doing so gets into the sticky business of copyright and trademark law... what do you find unfair about it? I am curious, as you seem quite passionate in your beliefs here.

 

[draggat]

I'm with you, I enjoy having my perspective challeneged here and have the opportunity to discuss. Some just need to harden the fuck up. It's just the internet.


One thing I've thought of from this thread is the massive amount of resources and labor wasted making copies. Just from a human logistics scale how much it really takes to produce a counterfiet anything. On top of the the ecological impact of harvesting raw elements, refinement, transportation, production, and distribution. Not to mention just a huge waste of our species time not making something good.

I'd have to say that someone is obviously turning a decent profit by making copies and counterfeits or they wouldn't be made. Some people are happy to have the counterfeit and even brag about it. There are millions of people who think they got an awesome deal paying a small fraction of a price for a knockoff. If it works for them, then maybe they're right. Go to a swap meet sometime and see all the counterfeit purses and other stuff that sell like crazy. In that light, maybe it isn't a huge waste of time or resources. Ripping off a design may not be 'right' or ethical, but as long as there are people lining up to buy it, it will be done. Personally, I don't really like it, but have to admit I also don't really care either. I protest by not buying the knockoffs.

 

[Gadfly22]

Less so but still not against? I don't care, just asking. But since this thread is about copying designs, and sometimes doing so gets into the sticky business of copyright and trademark law... what do you find unfair about it? I am curious, as you seem quite passionate in your beliefs here.

Frankly, part of that post was tongue-in-cheek -- my satirical view of free market absolutists who disrespect the value of prudent regulation. But there was also a kernel of sincere feeling. This is what I think:

1. Lots of knives look like lots of other knives. But there's a world of difference between a counterfeit, a clone and a knife that happens to remind you of another knife. As an example of the last, anyone who thinks a Sanrenmu 710 is a "clone" of a Sebenza is a very very silly person. Or has just never held one or the other in hand.

2. In the knife world, I have serious doubts about the impact of counterfeits on knifemakers. There just aren't enough of them in a widespread distribution network to make much difference. And the buyer is not likely to be in the market for the expensive original and is usually just looking for an adequate cheap knife or is testing to see if he wants to invest in the real thing. BUT I do think actual counterfeits are bad because of their effects in the secondary market: buyers who get scammed and makers who have their names stuck on cheap copies that hurt brand reputation.

3. Clones a different story. Most "clones" I am familiar with (mostly Ganzos) are very similar but not exact copies. And I have the real things to compare them to, so I'm speaking from hands-on comparison experience. Do clones hurt knifemakers? Well, apparently, the economics are not enough to motivate them to pursue legal action, so I think the answer is "not much" -- mostly for reasons cited above (not widespread enough, not competing for the same buyers). Who does compete with and hurt knifemakers? Us -- when we buy and sell used knives on sites like this one. We really are the market for expensive quality genuine knives -- but every sale in the secondary market really is a potential sale lost. As far as I know, only Benchmade has its own used knives because, if you're a knifemaker, you don't like the used knife market. Except for the chance to connect with and market to your base.

4. On intellectual property law in general, I think there are abuses that need reform. Endless extension of copyright protections, patent trolling and abuse of trademarks don't help consumers, innovators or the economy in general.

 

[Rhinoknives1]

I'm with you, Some just need to harden the fuck up. It's just the internet.

That my friend is Sig line material! LOL:thumbup:

 

[bld522]

Kevin John makes counterfeits of CRK, Strider, Hinderer and likely others. Some of which are branded as such and some that are sterile. They are clearly made to deceive the customer. I know he has put out some of his "own" work. Who even knows who he is!

Clearly made to deceive when they say kevin john triumph precision on the blade or lack the makers marks. In the watch world that would be considered a homage. You'd have to be one of the duller knives in the drawer to mistake a KJ knife for the real deal

There's so much wishful thinking here I don't know quite where to begin.

First of all, not all KJ knockoffs are branded or sterile. Some are marked in such a way as to make it IMPOSSIBLE to mistake them as originals. But the markings on KJ clones are about the only way to recognize some of them as counterfeits. In fact, some of the KJ clones I've seen are so good that they've fooled people who actually own the originals. So much for the duller knives in the drawer.

The problem with discussing counterfeit knives is that it's only a matter of time before people's passions exceed their first-hand experience. At that point, what those people have to say is about as useful as the additional information that can be gained from the second kick of a mule. And sending a message that only a fool wouldn't be able to tell the difference between an original and a counterfeit is a good way to keep the counterfeiters in business.

 

[Jaidmaster]

For me the line in the sand is when the copy has the original manf name on it, place of manf and labeled with incorrect steel type - basically all false information. If they put their own name, actual steel type, etc, that's fine by me.

 

[PURPLEDC]

You confuse an action with a reaction. Actions are always right or wrong, no shades of gray. Reaction (punishment) can vary depending on the action. As an example, do we teach kids it is okay once in a while to jump a STOP sign, but never okay to commit a violent crime, just because the punishments vary? Certainly not.

Absolute - I don't know, for that matter, if ANY enterprise funds crime in the background, there is simply no way to know. Which is why, IMO, it is best to stick with companies that are honorable in dealings - reputed knife brands, for instance. At least that way, there is a less chance of my money being used to fund criminal enterprise. In the face of not knowing, you always have to assume, and these assumptions are based on your moral and ethical compass. So no, I don't support or purchase anything that "resembles" something genuine (even if it is not a counterfeit). NO GO. I am far far happy with the most expensive knife I can afford from a reputed brand, and that's what I'll stick to.

I am confusing nothing. Reaction is the direct effect of action. You stated that in your eyes there is no shade of wrong. Its either wrong or its not. Those are your words. Science has taught us for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. So if there is no shades of wrong then how can you have varying degrees of severity in regards to punishment? You yourself state wrong has no gray area yet you think that punishment should depend on the action with no degrees of severity to begin with? Seriously explain to me how anyone can think that makes any sense. Look i get it, you have a code of ethics and that is fine. But you cant have varying forms of punishment based on the severity of one's wrong doing when you say there is no variance to wrong actions to begin with. Otherwise you simply admit to making up the rules as you go along.

 

[PURPLEDC]

Theres no real viable rationale to purchase a counterfeit.

for you? Maybe not. But not everyone thinks and operates the same way. Let me ask you this. A random guy decides he likes a clone knife for whatever his reason is. Lets say for some reason he likes the clone more than the genuine article. This person will NEVER buy the genuine knife regardless of past, present, or future events. This person buys the clone and enjoys it in the privacy of his own home. He never sells it or gives it away. How did that knife hurt anyone? Its not a lost sale as that was never on the table in the first place. Its also not that the knife will fool someone its real and rip anyone off because its never resold.


Now im not asking if its riht or wrong, ethical or not. I am simply asking who the victim is in the above scenario and why.

Very true, but there is value to be had here. It is a good way to learn who to add to your ignore list

Lol, do you know how many emails i get a month from people wanting me to authenticate a knife for them? Who do you think is better at spotting a fake, me or the guy who wont go near them? Ignore people like me all you want but we tend to come in handy from time to time. Everyone knows i buy clones. But i dont push them on people and i dont post new knife threads showing my latest purchase. I do occasionally post a thread warning people a certain product is being made so people like you dont accidentally buy one. I could just sit back and watch the "i just bought a fake" threads pile up. Its easy to sit in judgement of others actions. But if there is one thhing i have learned its that only the young are innocent. And the guy who looks down on me for buying clones ( yet cant give me credit for being honest about that fact) is probably far from innocent. People look down on me for buying clones. Yet they only know that about me because i was honest about it. Its the guys who lie about it you have to watch out for. And there is more of them than you would believe.

 

[RedLynx]

Very informative, I appreciate you sharing.

Frankly, part of that post was tongue-in-cheek -- my satirical view of free market absolutists who disrespect the value of prudent regulation. But there was also a kernel of sincere feeling. This is what I think:

1. Lots of knives look like lots of other knives. But there's a world of difference between a counterfeit, a clone and a knife that happens to remind you of another knife. As an example of the last, anyone who thinks a Sanrenmu 710 is a "clone" of a Sebenza is a very very silly person. Or has just never held one or the other in hand.

2. In the knife world, I have serious doubts about the impact of counterfeits on knifemakers. There just aren't enough of them in a widespread distribution network to make much difference. And the buyer is not likely to be in the market for the expensive original and is usually just looking for an adequate cheap knife or is testing to see if he wants to invest in the real thing. BUT I do think actual counterfeits are bad because of their effects in the secondary market: buyers who get scammed and makers who have their names stuck on cheap copies that hurt brand reputation.

3. Clones a different story. Most "clones" I am familiar with (mostly Ganzos) are very similar but not exact copies. And I have the real things to compare them to, so I'm speaking from hands-on comparison experience. Do clones hurt knifemakers? Well, apparently, the economics are not enough to motivate them to pursue legal action, so I think the answer is "not much" -- mostly for reasons cited above (not widespread enough, not competing for the same buyers). Who does compete with and hurt knifemakers? Us -- when we buy and sell used knives on sites like this one. We really are the market for expensive quality genuine knives -- but every sale in the secondary market really is a potential sale lost. As far as I know, only Benchmade has its own used knives because, if you're a knifemaker, you don't like the used knife market. Except for the chance to connect with and market to your base.

4. On intellectual property law in general, I think there are abuses that need reform. Endless extension of copyright protections, patent trolling and abuse of trademarks don't help consumers, innovators or the economy in general.

 

[bld522]

Quote Originally Posted by Karda:

"Theres no real viable rationale to purchase a counterfeit."

for you? Maybe not. But not everyone thinks and operates the same way.

True that. Some people actually think affordability is a pretty viable and rational reason to purchase a counterfeit, particularly when they can't afford an original regardless of whether or not they can sell it later.

There's no way to prove this, of course, but my hunch is that the vast majority of counterfeits are purchased on purpose.

 

[RX-79G]

True that. Some people actually think affordability is a pretty viable and rational reason to purchase a counterfeit, particularly when they can't afford an original regardless of whether or not they can sell it later.

There's no way to prove this, of course, but my hunch is that the vast majority of counterfeits are purchased on purpose.

Who hasn't been at least a little tempted to get a Sebenza for $50?

 

[JR88FAN]

Who hasn't been at least a little tempted to get a Sebenza for $50?

Me.
I doubt I am alone.

If I can't afford a knife I would like to own, I will save up until I can.

One main reason clones sell, and are even around, is money, but more to the point, our impatience and need for instant gratification.

We want a PM2, but saving up the $100 and change is just not something we do very well anymore, so a 'clone' becomes the 'instant' option.

As for people who are scared to use something like a PM2 because they might 'scratch' it, so they buy a clone, that is something only psychiatry can explain.
I have safe queens, but surely there is a line there somewhere?

If you love knives, there is no way you can support 'clones/fakes'
Regardless of what you may think, this industry, like any other, needs to be rewarded for the products they design, and your money not only lines their pockets, but also moves innovation, and the next great knife.....

 

[PURPLEDC]

True that. Some people actually think affordability is a pretty viable and rational reason to purchase a counterfeit, particularly when they can't afford an original regardless of whether or not they can sell it later.

There's no way to prove this, of course, but my hunch is that the vast majority of counterfeits are purchased on purpose.

I know I buy them on purpose. Theoretically I could afford to buy a sebenza. But I cant afford to USE as sebenza. In other words I may be able to choke up the money for the initial purchase but I cant bring myself to use a knife that costs that much money. For me that price of admission is reserved for fondling knives. When I purchase a knife for use I want something that gets the job done yet is more easily replaced in the event of a failure or loss. And before anyone comes at me about the "crap quality" and "inferior materials" of clones needs to stop lying to themselves and to others. If you will admit you have never handled a clone, never would buy a clone and never used a clone, then how can you feel like you have enough first hand knowledge on them to speak to their quality or lack thereof? That would be like me saying Cadillac makes a crap car out of poor materials when I havent even been given a ride in one. Wanting something to be poor quality and knowing so are two completely different things

Me.
I doubt I am alone.

If I can't afford a knife I would like to own, I will save up until I can.

One main reason clones sell, and are even around, is money, but more to the point, our impatience and need for instant gratification.

We want a PM2, but saving up the $100 and change is just not something we do very well anymore, so a 'clone' becomes the 'instant' option.

As for people who are scared to use something like a PM2 because they might 'scratch' it, so they buy a clone, that is something only psychiatry can explain.
I have safe queens, but surely there is a line there somewhere?

If you love knives, there is no way you can support 'clones/fakes'
Regardless of what you may think, this industry, like any other, needs to be rewarded for the products they design, and your money not only lines their pockets, but also moves innovation, and the next great knife.....

So wait. You dont buy clones. Would never buy a clone and never have been tempted to buy a clone yet you think you know and understand the motivation behind why someone would buy one? Impatience and instant gratification really have nothing to do with it. At least not for me or anyone else I know who purposely buys them. Its about not being able to or simply not being WILLING to pay the prices some makers ask for their goods. To you a PM2 being a safe queen is an absurd Idea of which needs psychiatric care to evaluate. Well some of us are less fortunate than others. And to some a PM2 is their grail knife and they cant afford to just replace it if they lose it.

And I resent the comment that you cant be a lover of knives if you buy clones. Because I do buy clones and because I do love knives. Thats like telling a guy driving a cobra Kit car that he has no passion for automobiles.

 

[JR88FAN]

I know I buy them on purpose. Theoretically I could afford to buy a sebenza. But I cant afford to USE as sebenza. In other words I may be able to choke up the money for the initial purchase but I cant bring myself to use a knife that costs that much money. For me that price of admission is reserved for fondling knives. When I purchase a knife for use I want something that gets the job done yet is more easily replaced in the event of a failure or loss. And before anyone comes at me about the "crap quality" and "inferior materials" of clones needs to stop lying to themselves and to others. If you will admit you have never handled a clone, never would buy a clone and never used a clone, then how can you feel like you have enough first hand knowledge on them to speak to their quality or lack thereof? That would be like me saying Cadillac makes a crap car out of poor materials when I havent even been given a ride in one. Wanting something to be poor quality and knowing so are two completely different things.

I agree.
I don't think the argument should have anything to with quality.

It's a fact that many of the companies that produce the clones/fakes also produce lower end knives for companies we defend and admire.