When is everyone okay with copying designs?

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RedLynx said:
Much less chance of a problem, yeah. I've only heard of a dealer getting duped once, although I am sure there are a few cases to be found.
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Me too. But once again, I wouldn't be surprised if those kinds of instances increase. Believe me when I tell you that it's getting to the point where only the manufacturer will be able to say with certainty whether a knife is an original or a clone. With some clones, we may be there already. Crazy thing is, some people who are railing against clones may be sitting on one right now thinking it's an original and not even know it.
 
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bld522 said:
Me too. But once again, I wouldn't be surprised if those kinds of instances increase. Believe me when I tell you that it's getting to the point where only the manufacturer will be able to say with certainty whether a knife is an original or a clone. With some clones, we may be there already.
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I would say that with the PM2, we are just about there.
I think I am actually scared to buy one.
 
Two words . . . AUTHORIZED DEALER! Sometimes the simplest solution is the most elegant. :)
 
JR88FAN said:
Ya I know, it was just my way of saying that in particular, the PM2 has been cloned exceptionally well....
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Man, you ought to see some of the high-end KJ XM-18 clones. I'm not talking about the $30 to $60 Wild Boar variety. I'm talking about the >$100 copies. Those things are just plain scary. I've seen the blood drain from the face of more than one XM-18 owner when they found out what they were holding in their hand. And that's why I keep drawing the line when people come in here saying that all clones are junk. The only thing that's junk is the claim that all clones are junk!
 
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bld522 said:
Man, you ought to see some of the high-end KJ XM-18 clones. I'm not talking about the $30 to $60 Wild Boar variety. I'm talking about the >$100 copies. Those things are just plain scary. I've seen the blood drain from the face of more than one XM-18 owner when they found out what they were holding in their hand. And that's why I keep drawing the line when people come in here saying that all clones are junk. The only thing that's junk is the claim that all clones are junk!
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If it not only appears, but actually PERFORMS so much like an original that only the manufacturer can tell.... Where are we? I mean, stop and think about that. No wonder owners get pale in the face.
 
JR88FAN said:
I am just adding 1+1.
I have every right to do that.
These knives are outsourced, none of these companies have their own 'plant' in China.
So who makes them?

I am going to state as fact that it's the same people that make the 'Chinese brands'
The way cheap production works, it's the only logical conclusion I can make.

I know I know, it's still not a fact......
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I really don't think the mass production standards required to make the Spyderco Byrd line and your typical Kershaw has much of anything to do with the kind of limited production used to make a fake Sebenza. The population and industry of China is enormous - bigger than anything the US has had in generations. The assumption that the handful of big production factories involved in US imported knifemaking have anything to do with forgery is a real stretch.

I think it is much more likely that sophisticated machine shops making things like aerospace and prototypes are making precise fake knives between other jobs. There just isn't any comparison between the fit and finish of Ganzo and a fake CRK.

If it not only appears, but actually PERFORMS so much like an original that only the manufacturer can tell.... Where are we? I mean, stop and think about that. No wonder owners get pale in the face.
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As someone pointed out earlier - if your product keeps getting "improved" and updated, it is pretty hard for the counterfeiters to keep up. Cars change, at least in small ways, every year or two. The knife world should follow suit.
 
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RX-79G said:
As someone pointed out earlier - if your product keeps getting "improved" and updated, it is pretty hard for the counterfeiters to keep up. Cars change, at least in small ways, every year or two. The knife world should follow suit.
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I can't really disagree with that.
 
bld522 said:
Man, you ought to see some of the high-end KJ XM-18 clones. I'm not talking about the $30 to $60 Wild Boar variety. I'm talking about the >$100 copies. Those things are just plain scary. I've seen the blood drain from the face of more than one XM-18 owner when they found out what they were holding in their hand. And that's why I keep drawing the line when people come in here saying that all clones are junk. The only thing that's junk is the claim that all clones are junk!
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Are you using "clone" & "counterfeit" interchangeably?
I thought they had different meanings.
 
mtangent said:
Are you using "clone" & "counterfeit" interchangeably?
I thought they had different meanings.
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They probably do, to some people. But the language isn't written in stone.

I would assume that a "clone" looks, feels and works just like the original - but with different branding. Counterfeit or "fake" is when the product copies trademarks as well as shape and color. And then there's "replica", which looks and feels right, may or may not have the branding, but is made in a non-functional way. "Homage" would be the least obnoxious - where something takes elements of the original without any real effort at close duplication.
 
mtangent said:
Are you using "clone" & "counterfeit" interchangeably?
I thought they had different meanings.
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For purposes of this conversation, I think it's safe to say that we're using the words "clone", "copy", "fake", "tribute", "homage" and "counterfeit" interchangeably. That may not be entirely correct, but it's close enough for jazz. And they all have one thing in common . . . they're based on a stolen design.
 
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RedLynx said:
I can't really disagree with that.
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I can. Knife designs have a longer shelf life than car designs, particularly classic knife designs like the XM-18 and the Sebenza and the Strider SMF and SnG. What would you like to bet that clones of those designs will be made for years if not decades to come . . . even (particularly?) if they're discontinued?
 
JR88FAN said:
It's not a fact, but there is no other explanation to who makes these knives....

Take that as you wish.
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There are many many other explanations. The only reason you only see one explanation is because you choose to. The whole third shift idea doesnt really seem plausible. There are too many steps involved in the making of knives counterfeit or not to hide the operation during the day and to pump out fakes at night.
 
Again, we can conjecture as much as we want to. But as long as we keep trying to peer through an opaque membrane, we will never really know what's going on.

Well it's nice to see that the folks carrying flamethrowers have left this thread. Perhaps now we can get down to reality.

If someone wants to make an argument against counterfeits, the only safe tack to take is against the counterfeiters themselves, not against the products they produce. ALL COUNTERFEITERS ARE THIEVES, and that's sufficient reason not to do business with them. But not all the products they make are junk. Problem is, those whose blood boils at the mere mention of the word "counterfeit" continue to try to blur that distinction, normally with no facts to back them up. They then enter a realm that is not entirely different from those they are attacking . . . neither of them are telling the truth. It's hard to make a convincing moral argument when you're standing on shaky moral ground.
 
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bld522 said:
For purposes of this conversation, I think it's safe to say that we're using the words "clone", "copy", "fake", "tribute", "homage" and "counterfeit" interchangeably. That may not be entirely correct, but it's close enough for jazz. And they all have one thing in common . . . they're based on a stolen design.
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Like all Bowie knives are stolen?
 
bld522 said:
I can. Knife designs have a longer shelf life than car designs, particularly classic knife designs like the XM-18 and the Sebenza and the Strider SMF and SnG. What would you like to bet that clones of those designs will be made for years if not decades to come . . . even (particularly?) if they're discontinued?
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I think those fad knives will not stand the test of time as some more functional patterns in history have, like the bowie for instance have been made for over a century, by makers like Will & Fink in my city. Their designs are some of the highest regarded takes on bowies from the period, and still fetch a pretty penny at auction. This exploration into folding knives is much more dependent on infrastructure than personal human technique.
 
bld522 said:
Public domain? (See Michael Walker and Chris Reeve.)
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All public domain means is that there no longer or never was patent or copyright protection. This concept seems to be the thing that people are struggling so hard to understand.

If I design a new fixed blade shape tomorrow that is very stylish and interesting, but not interesting enough to receive a patent or copyright, it is just as much "public domain" the moment I show it to someone as Bowie's design is today.

Time doesn't make a difference.
Whether the designer is dead doesn't make difference.
The designers wishes doesn't make a difference.

Only the patent or copyright's active existence makes a difference.


I'd suggest we all stop using terms like "public domain" or "protections" if we aren't talking about patents or copyrights. There are no shades of gray on what is public domain.
 
I'm very new here, and I don't love knives in any real sense so take what I say with a grain of salt.

I have a couple hobbies but the biggest is bicycles preferably boutique bicycles. In many ways bicycles are like knives there are only so many ways you can design them and still have a useful bike. Geometry and tube shape, tub materials and the like are for the most part standardized across the industry so builders differentiate by craftsmanship. I don't think I nor Richard Sachs would have an issue with Dave Kirk building an homage bike using his lugs and geometry even if he called a Sachs by Kirk Frame Works. When you move down market away from bespoke and get into mass produced bikes you find copies of things like the Pinarello Dogma i.e. the frame is shaped the same way but it's no sold as a Pinarello. These are generally made in the same factory as the real deal but sold cheap on ebay and the like. I have a bit of an issue with these because of how they're being sold not so much because they have the same design but because there tends not to be a reference to the original, but whats telling to me is the companies don't have a public grievance with the practice.

I guess what I'm getting at is if the originators of the design in this case a knife don't have issues with copies and they have the most to lose why should I?
 
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