When is everyone okay with copying designs?

[bld522]

Me.
I doubt I am alone.

I doubt you are too . . . around here. But if you think Bladeforums mirrors the prevailing sentiment in the real world, you may be in for quite a surprise. People's loyalty is to their wallets. If you have any doubt about that, a quick visit to your local WalMart will tell you everything you need to know.

This much is certain. Somebody's keeping the counterfeiters alive. Otherwise, they'd dry up and blow away in the wind. I don't see any sign of that happening. Do you?

 

[PURPLEDC]

I agree.
I don't think the argument should have anything to with quality.

It's a fact that many of the companies that produce the clones/fakes also produce lower end knives for companies we defend and admire.

That is a fact how? I have heard random people on forums state this but I have never seen anyone actually give any sort of insight as to how they came to that conclusion. If you are talking things like ganzo and saremnu and the like then maybe I could see that but still I have never been shown the proof. But I just dont think the production facilities responsible for the really high end chinese fakes to be doing contract work for well known companies.

I doubt you are too . . . around here. But if you think Bladeforums mirrors the prevailing sentiment in the real world, you may be in for quite a surprise. People's loyalty is to their wallets. If you have any doubt about that, a quick visit to your local WalMart will tell you everything you need to know.

This much is certain. Somebody's keeping the counterfeiters alive. Otherwise, they'd just blow away in the wind. I don't see any sign of that happening. Do you?

Bro, I dont even think "around here" is accurate. There are a lot of people on this forum who buy a use clones every single day. They just dont talk about it it because of the venom they know would be coming their way if they did. Id be willing to bet there is someone right now flipping a kevin john in their hand while reading this very post.

 

[JR88FAN]

I doubt you are too . . . around here. But if you think Bladeforums mirrors the prevailing sentiment in the real world, you may be in for quite a surprise. People's loyalty is to their wallets. If you have any doubt about that, a quick visit to your local WalMart will tell you everything you need to know.

This much is certain. Somebody's keeping the counterfeiters alive. Otherwise, they'd just blow away in the wind. I don't see any sign of that happening. Do you?

I completely agree with you.
It will end when the only thing any of us can afford is Walmart and clones/fakes.

But we have made the choice to buy something 'cheap' today, as opposed to what we really want, but have to wait.....

 

[bld522]

That is a fact how? I have heard random people on forums state this but I have never seen anyone actually give any sort of insight as to how they came to that conclusion. If you are talking things like ganzo and saremnu and the like then maybe I could see that but still I have never been shown the proof. But I just dont think the production facilities responsible for the really high end chinese fakes to be doing contract work for well known companies.

It's hard to say. Certainly some of the counterfeiters making high-end clones have access to sophisticated equipment and knifemaking skills. Otherwise they wouldn't be able to produce clones with the kind of quality that could pass as genuine. So it's not an unreasonable to draw that conclusion. But you're right. JR88FAN's contention has no basis in fact . . . at least none that I'm aware of.

 

[bld522]

I completely agree with you.
It will end when the only thing any of us can afford is Walmart and clones/fakes.

What makes you think most Americans aren't there already? WalMart isn't the biggest retailer in the country because people want to buy quality. When it comes to counterfeits, we can create the biggest tempest our little teapot can hold. But the great unwashed masses will remain unmoved. And counterfeiters will be successfully plying their trade long after we're gone.

 

[JR88FAN]

That is a fact how? I have heard random people on forums state this but I have never seen anyone actually give any sort of insight as to how they came to that conclusion. If you are talking things like ganzo and saremnu and the like then maybe I could see that but still I have never been shown the proof. But I just dont think the production facilities responsible for the really high end chinese fakes to be doing contract work for well known companies.

Nobody is going to tell you that CRKT, Boker+, Spyderco (Bird), etc are made by the same companies that make Ganzo, Saremnu, clones/fakes, but I can't find an Chinese address for any of these companies.....

The lack of transparency on this topic is kinda like 2+2=5......

Just like you 'don't think the production facilities responsible for the really high end Chinese fakes to be doing contract work for well known companies. I do.

Things like the 'third shift' explain a lot;

http://archive.fortune.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/2006/05/01/8375455/index.htm

 

[JR88FAN]

What makes you think most Americans aren't there already? WalMart isn't the biggest retailer in the country because people want to buy quality. When it comes to counterfeits, we can create the biggest tempest our little teapot can hold. But the great unwashed masses will remain unmoved. And counterfeiters will be successfully plying their trade long after we're gone.

The answer to that is more political than anything, and if we get into politics this thread will get closed.

 

[RedLynx]

What makes you think most Americans aren't there already? WalMart isn't the biggest retailer in the country because people want to buy quality. When it comes to counterfeits, we can create the biggest tempest our little teapot can hold. But the great unwashed masses will remain unmoved.

In fact, most Americans are there already. I don't have the stats to hand, but a recent study showed that if you have at least $1000 in savings, you're already financially better off than about 66% of your fellow Americans.

Obviously this is likely due to many factors that are different for each household or person, from rash spending to not having enough or any number of reasons. But a shockingly high number of Americans have very little money in the kitty. That's a low number to shoot for, even for someone like me who has spent a long time somewhat below Federal poverty guidelines.

 

[bld522]

The answer to that is more political than anything, and if we get into politics this thread will get closed.

You're right. That's a "what's so". It's also a "so what"? With or without government backing, counterfeiting will be here long after you and I are gone.

 

[bld522]

In fact, most Americans are there already. I don't have the stats to hand, but a recent study showed that if you have at least $1000 in savings, you're already financially better off than about 66% of your fellow Americans.

Obviously this is likely due to many factors that are different for each household or person, from rash spending to not having enough or any number of reasons. But a shockingly high number of Americans have very little money in the kitty. That's a low number to shoot for, even for someone like me who has spent a long time somewhat below Federal poverty guidelines.

I honestly don't know where this is going, RedLynx, but your comments are telling. And we as a society are going to have to make some very, very difficult decisions about what we're going to do with an increasingly larger elderly demographic (can you say Mom and Dad?) that cannot support itself.

In any event, we're so far off topic I can't even see the tracks anymore. Where were we?

 

[PURPLEDC]

Nobody is going to tell you that CRKT, Boker+, Spyderco (Bird), etc are made by the same companies that make Ganzo, Saremnu, clones/fakes, but I can't find an Chinese address for any of these companies.....

The lack of transparency on this topic is kinda like 2+2=5......

Just like you 'don't think the production facilities responsible for the really high end Chinese fakes to be doing contract work for well known companies. I do.

Things like the 'third shift' explain a lot;

http://archive.fortune.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/2006/05/01/8375455/index.htm

So what you really meant to say was that you in fact have no idea if your "fact" is really a fact at all, but rather you are making assumptions based on a lack of information? If that is the case then there are TONS of companies in the United states manufacturing knives that have a lack of transparency. That doesnt mean they are for sure pumping out fakes in the wee hours of the morning no matter how logical you think that conclusion is. And this is where my disdain for this discussion comes from is people stating things as fact with no basis. The difference between you and I is when I come up with a theory about something everyone knows that I am presenting it as a possibility. When you say "its a known fact" and then later admit that its just you guessing because it was never plainly spelled out for you is pretty dishonest. That is how rumors and false information are started and its why so many people have no idea what is and isnt fact.

 

[bld522]

The fact is, nobody has any facts. All we know for sure is that the counterfeiters are getting better and better and making their fakes. How they're doing that is a mystery to me.

 

[RedLynx]

I honestly don't know where this is going, RedLynx, but your comments are telling. And we as a society are going to have to make some very, very difficult decisions about what we're going to do with an increasingly larger elderly demographic (can you say Mom and Dad?) that cannot support itself.

I know what I will say can be considered political but in a thread talking about counterfeits and foreign markets and economies I think it can fit and still be kosher.

To bounce off of what you say, some other western societies are feeling this very pinch you speak of already.... low birth rates and an increasing number of elderly and retirees, without a sustainable (relatively speaking) young workforce to back that up and keep fueling the economy. Some of my contemporaries in other countries honestly do not have much to look forward to when they reach retirement age. And they already know it.

Disclaimer: The preceding makes no attempt to condemn or laud, or even examine, one political machine or government over any other. It's simply a recitation of some basic things I've learned from friends and workers who are parts of those different machines.

 

[bld522]

Yeah. We'll have to leave it there. But believe me, I feel our pain.

 

[RedLynx]

The fact is, nobody has any facts. All we know for sure is that the counterfeiters are getting better and better and making their fakes. How they're doing that is a mystery to me.

Somewhat more on topic, you know what's even scarier? They're getting really good at counterfeiting "non-physical goods."

My brother-in-law was recently scammed by an insurance plan for his phone, a Windows product, and he's an IT guy who has basically taught himself a plethora of programming languages for which most people go to school. He even showed it to Microsoft experts who agreed it was a great fake plan and it's no wonder that he was fooled by it.

 

[JR88FAN]

So what you really meant to say was that you in fact have no idea if your "fact" is really a fact at all, but rather you are making assumptions based on a lack of information? If that is the case then there are TONS of companies in the United states manufacturing knives that have a lack of transparency. That doesnt mean they are for sure pumping out fakes in the wee hours of the morning no matter how logical you think that conclusion is. And this is where my disdain for this discussion comes from is people stating things as fact with no basis. The difference between you and I is when I come up with a theory about something everyone knows that I am presenting it as a possibility. When you say "its a known fact" and then later admit that its just you guessing because it was never plainly spelled out for you is pretty dishonest. That is how rumors and false information are started and its why so many people have no idea what is and isnt fact.[

I am just adding 1+1.
I have every right to do that.
These knives are outsourced, none of these companies have their own 'plant' in China.
So who makes them?

I am going to state as fact that it's the same people that make the 'Chinese brands'
The way cheap production works, it's the only logical conclusion I can make.

I know I know, it's still not a fact......

 

[bld522]

Somewhat more on topic, you know what's even scarier? They're getting really good at counterfeiting "non-physical goods."

My brother-in-law was recently scammed by an insurance plan for his phone, a Windows product, and he's an IT guy who has basically taught himself a plethora of programming languages for which most people go to school. He even showed it to Microsoft experts who agreed it was a great fake plan and it's no wonder that he was fooled by it.

It's true. We're fighting a losing battle. But as I said before, there IS a solution . . . at least when it comes to knives. Always, always, always buy from an authorized dealer. That's the only way to be absolutely sure that you're protected. And that's not to say that an authorized dealer couldn't get duped, but at least you may have recourse to the manufacturer if that happens.

 

[bld522]

These knives are outsourced, none of these companies have their own 'plant' in China.
So who makes them?

I am going to state as fact that it's the same people that make the 'Chinese brands'
The way cheap production works, it's the only logical conclusion I can make.

I know I know, it's still not a fact......

Wait . . . WHAT??? It's either a fact or it's not. Make up your mind.

 

[RedLynx]

It's true. We're fighting a losing battle. But as I said before, there IS a solution . . . at least when it comes to knives. Always, always, always buy from an authorized dealer. That's the only way to be absolutely sure that you're protected. And that's not to say that an authorized dealer couldn't get duped, but at least you may have recourse to the manufacturer if that happens.

Much less chance of a problem, yeah. I've only heard of a dealer getting duped once, although I am sure there are a few cases to be found.

 

[JR88FAN]

You're right. That's a "what's so". It's also a "so what"? With or without government backing, counterfeiting will be here long after you and I are gone.

I don't believe that.
This is part of a much bigger problem, and I don't believe the current economic set-up is sustainable.

If we are to only be consumers of shit, as we sink deeper into debt because the jobs that allowed the vast majority of us to make a decent living have been moved, there is an end there somewhere.

You have to understand the corporate mentality, it's all about profits TODAY, and that's worked for the last 20+ years, but as our personal credit gets maxed, and our ability to have expendable income to consume shrinks, things will have to change one way or another....