When is everyone okay with copying designs?

[bld522]

I think any and all discussion of fakes / counterfeits execpt identification should be banned by TOS. This thread is totally proof of this idea.

I'm sure that's been discussed before. But as counterfeits aren't going to go away, sticking our collective heads in the sand and pretending they're not there doesn't appear to be the strategy BF has decided to adopt.

 

[ev13wt]

Unless, of course you own them, at which point it is completely relevant to discuss their quality. What IS irrelevant is to discuss their quality when you've never owned or used them. People who do that are little better than the counterfeiters they denigrate. Around my neck of the woods, we actually have a name for folks who engage in that sort of thing. We call them liars.

It's a counterfeit. I won't discuss quality because it will never be relevant for me. Either I save up, or I print it out and hang it on my wall. I will never own a counterfeit knife. Or watch.

If someone says all counterfeits are bad quality, I'd say that is plain old wrong. In knifes and watches, heck even in headphones there are counterfeits that are just as good as the real thing.

(In the case of beats headphones, the counterfeits actually sound and measure better.)

 

[bld522]

It's a counterfeit. I won't discuss quality because it will never be relevant for me.

I'm sorry. What is it that you're doing right now?

If someone says all counterfeits are bad quality, I'd say that is plain old wrong. In knifes and watches, heck even in headphones there are counterfeits that are just as good as the real thing.

I rest my case.

 

[ev13wt]

I'm sure that's been discussed before. But as counterfeits aren't going to go away, sticking our collective heads in the sand and pretending they're not there doesn't appear to be the strategy BF has decided to adopt.

But it could send the proper message. Politics and such.

I'm sorry. What is it that you're doing right now?


I rest my case.

I am not dicussing fakes, I am discussing the discussion of fakes. Also I'm bored and I see there is a fight going on, I thought I'll jump in and see whats up!

 

[PURPLEDC]

Unless, of course you own them, at which point it is completely relevant to discuss their quality. What IS irrelevant is to discuss their quality when you've never owned or used them. People who do that are little better than the counterfeiters they denigrate. Around my neck of the woods, we actually have a name for folks who engage in that sort of thing. We call them liars.

:thumbup:

PURPLEEDC: I can make a high quality copy of a knife. Still it is not my design. In our half of the world making a perfect copy does not honor the original maker. It is exactly the opposite. It brings dishonor and shame to copy.

It means you cannot think for yourself. In the end it means you only want to make easy money. This means the counterfeit maker uses cheap metal and imperfect finishing. More disgrace.

So it is irrelevant to discuss the quality of counterfeit products (copies).

Its irrelevant why? because you say so? Sorry if i gave a rip about the random opinions of random people i wouldnt be discussing this subject honestly anyways. But lets say for good ole' S&G we live in a world where i care about what you think is relevant. I would not be discussing it if people who have absolutely 0 first hand knowledge of these knives would refrain from using quality as a bullet point as to why these knives should be avoided. If you or anyone wants to say people should avoid clones based on the moral and ethical shortcomings then i have no problem with that. But i stand by what i said, and that is if people want to complain about these knives and use honesty as one of there main points of discontent then they should practice what they preach. You simply cant legitimately speak to the quality of anything, good or bad without first hand experience no matter how unethical that item is.

I think any and all discussion of fakes / counterfeits execpt identification should be banned by TOS. This thread is totally proof of this idea.

I think any topic related to knives should be allowed and that the burden of responsibility lie on the shoulders of the individual as to how best to use that information. Limiting and manipulating content is not the way to make your case.

It's a counterfeit. I won't discuss quality because it will never be relevant for me. Either I save up, or I print it out and hang it on my wall. I will never own a counterfeit knife. Or watch.

If someone says all counterfeits are bad quality, I'd say that is plain old wrong. In knifes and watches, heck even in headphones there are counterfeits that are just as good as the real thing.

(In the case of beats headphones, the counterfeits actually sound and measure better.)

Wait are you or are you not going to discuss quality due to it being irrelevant? Because it looks like you are discussing it and even admitting that counterfeit items can be just as high quality. Relevant or not at least there is some honesty in that post.

Also I'm bored and I see there is a fight going on, I thought I'll jump in and see whats up!

They call that trolling.

 

[ev13wt]

:thumbup:



Its irrelevant why? because you say so? Sorry if i gave a rip about the random opinions of random people i wouldnt be discussing this subject honestly anyways. But lets say for good ole' S&G we live in a world where i care about what you think is relevant. I would not be discussing it if people who have absolutely 0 first hand knowledge of these knives would refrain from using quality as a bullet point as to why these knives should be avoided. If you or anyone wants to say people should avoid clones based on the moral and ethical shortcomings then i have no problem with that. But i stand by what i said, and that is if people want to complain about these knives and use honesty as one of there main points of discontent then they should practice what they preach. You simply cant legitimately speak to the quality of anything, good or bad without first hand experience no matter how unethical that item is.

Ok. I'll bite. I will clarify for you, since you obviously have problems reading slowly and carefully.

99 percent of fakes are made to make money off other companies products using their designs and marketing efforts. As such, 90 percent of those fakes will be cheaply made, with inferiour f&f and while it looks like the real thing, it isn't. This is the case for knives, as well as watches and other things.

Even if 10 percent, which is a huge estimate here, is of similar quality as the real thing, it is totally irrelevant to the fact the fakes are USUALLY of inferior quality all over. Nobody needs to own or handle a fake to know or discuss this.

And honestly, it is just a knife. The average consumer will never even realize what blade play or centering means or even is, nor will they be able to tell a good steel from a crap steel. Heck, only weird people like us and professional users actually ever sharpen ANY knife they own. As long as that fake is semi pointy and can open mail and cut apples and some cardboard, they simply don't care.

This is not an argument for avoiding fakes. It is only a fact I stated. Morality be damned, when I was young I had a fake (mechanical) Rolex too. When I got older I decided for myself that this is not something I want to be. By then, that fake Rolex had been stolen by a fake friend anyhow. (Everyone knew it was fake btw)

If someone wants to be that guy and own fake knifes, who am I to judge?

 

[PURPLEDC]

Ok. I'll bite. I will clarify for you, since you obviously have problems reading slowly and carefully.

99 percent of fakes are made to make money off other companies products using their designs and marketing efforts. As such, 90 percent of those fakes will be cheaply made, with inferiour f&f and while it looks like the real thing, it isn't. This is the case for knives, as well as watches and other things.

Even if 10 percent, which is a huge estimate here, is of similar quality as the real thing, it is totally irrelevant to the fact the fakes are USUALLY of inferior quality all over. Nobody needs to own or handle a fake to know or discuss this.

And honestly, it is just a knife. The average consumer will never even realize what blade play or centering means or even is, nor will they be able to tell a good steel from a crap steel. Heck, only weird people like us and professional users actually ever sharpen ANY knife they own. As long as that fake is semi pointy and can open mail and cut apples and some cardboard, they simply don't care.

This is not an argument for avoiding fakes. It is only a fact I stated. Morality be damned, when I was young I had a fake (mechanical) Rolex too. When I got older I decided for myself that this is not something I want to be. By then, that fake Rolex had been stolen by a fake friend anyhow. (Everyone knew it was fake btw)

If someone wants to be that guy and own fake knifes, who am I to judge?

I didnt want you to bite. I didnt really want a response at all. And honestly I have been on this forum since 2007. I have been on both sides of this argument as I once felt strongly against clones myself. And the one thing your post does is further prove all the points I have made in this thread so far.

1. All of your percentages? You made them up. They are as fake as the knives we are discussing.

2. You are trying to speak to the quality of these product when you are against them and dont buy them. So you have no basis for your claims. As someone who actually owns more clones than you probably have even held I can say your opinion is false based on what I have owned or still own. And you thinking you are an expert on products you have no experience with is one of my main complaints.

3. Yes people do need to hold and use fakes to say that. Otherwise how did you come to your conclusion? Reputations for quality good or bad are earned from the people who have experience with those product. Those trying to push their opinion without that experience full of it and feel the need to resort to lies to get their message across. I think that puts them pretty much in the same company as those making the fakes. If people were basing their opinions on first hand experience then they wouldnt be using quality as a data point.

4. You seem to be talking to me as if I havent heard any of it. I have been a member here for over 7 years. Even more if you consider the first account that I had that disappeared. If I havent said It I have read it. You arent schooling anyone on anything here.

 

[POCEH KOCEB]

...I see a bunch of words...

Me too. You can fix it by using facts but instead you are concentrating again on me, not on the subject I'm touching: Most of the Chinese companies are stealing designs.
Fix it my friend, don't waste your time writing about your feelings, tell me which one of those that are so good in manufacturing quality product are not blatant counterfeiters ? How many they are ?
With Carson labs, I count three, still, 97% of the rest are thieves.

BTW, where do you buy Carson labs's products, be so kind show me a place where I can go as a normal person and purchase whatever is available from their production line, just as I go to the online retailers.
Maybe in "[FONT=lucida grande, tahoma, verdana, arial, sans-serif]Shooting center OBJECT" in Moscow ?

Your attempt to produce some facts is laughable, I'm enjoying this thread more and more... [/FONT]

 

[nick21]

I haven't kept up with this thread admittedly, but I still don't feel that anyone who's against companies like Sanrenmu has given a satisfying response to the fact that the Sanrenmu 710 isn't like a "Spyderco Paramilitary 2 that's $35 ONLY FOR THIS LIMITED TIME OFFER!" on Ebay. Sanrenmu isn't claiming to be CRK. The 710 isn't claiming to be a Sebenza. Sure it's inspired, but the 710 is fundamentally different from faux-Spydercos in that it's not claiming to be a Sebenza.

There are people in this thread who make Sanrenmu out to be thieves but they just took a design that works and put their own spin on it.

I hate conflict. I just want a hug goddammit.

 

[JR88FAN]

Me too. You can fix it by using facts but instead you are concentrating again on me, not on the subject I'm touching: Most of the Chinese companies are stealing designs.
Fix it my friend, don't waste your time writing about your feelings, tell me which one of those that are so good in manufacturing quality product are not blatant counterfeiters ? How many they are ?

This argument can't be about quality.
It's just not relevant.
It could be worse, getting there, or as good. It doesn't matter.

The argument has to be about whether the practice of cloning and it's effects on the industry are something that is acceptable not just morally to us as individuals, but how will clones/fakes effect the industry and the knives we see going forward.....

 

[ev13wt]

I didnt want you to bite. I didnt really want a response at all. And honestly I have been on this forum since 2007. I have been on both sides of this argument as I once felt strongly against clones myself. And the one thing your post does is further prove all the points I have made in this thread so far.

1. All of your percentages? You made them up. They are as fake as the knives we are discussing.

2. You are trying to speak to the quality of these product when you are against them and dont buy them. So you have no basis for your claims. As someone who actually owns more clones than you probably have even held I can say your opinion is false based on what I have owned or still own. And you thinking you are an expert on products you have no experience with is one of my main complaints.

3. Yes people do need to hold and use fakes to say that. Otherwise how did you come to your conclusion? Reputations for quality good or bad are earned from the people who have experience with those product. Those trying to push their opinion without that experience full of it and feel the need to resort to lies to get their message across. I think that puts them pretty much in the same company as those making the fakes. If people were basing their opinions on first hand experience then they wouldnt be using quality as a data point.

4. You seem to be talking to me as if I dont know any of what you wrote. I have been a member here for over 7 years. Even more if you consider the first account that I had that disappeared. If I havent said It I have read it. You arent schooling anyone on anything here.

1. I don't need to make up anything. There are no fakes that are aimed at being the same quality.

2. All in all knive tolerances aren't anything special, and have decent machinist with any old machine can make them fit. Flipping open some folders and seeing that it works doesn't qualify you to speak subjectively about blade steels and geometries. Lets see some testing videos of these fakes vs. the real thing to support your claims. Controlled testing at that please, not just cutting some paper up.

3. Wrong. The fact of the matter is, a sharpened slab of metal between to slabs of metal ain't rocket science. Why are we discussing quality of fakes again? Nobody cares about them but you. Plenty of production knives with crappy fit and finish too. Blade centering of your average sample of Spydercos sucks in terms of anything close to high tolerance. Not hard to copy that.

- So you admit to buying fakes, supporting fake manufacturers and are actually defending them too? Wow.

4. Post count and 7 years membership doesn't mean anything and will not help you validate your weak argument about fakes being oh so great man. Defending and supporting them shows me what type of man you are too.

 

[PURPLEDC]

Me too. You can fix it by using facts but instead you are concentrating again on me, not on the subject I'm touching: Most of the Chinese companies are stealing designs.
Fix it my friend, don't waste your time writing about your feelings, tell me which one of those that are so good in manufacturing quality product are not blatant counterfeiters ? How many they are ?

I dont care how many there are. You do. And since you are the one more comfortable fabricating numbers why not just pull one from your behind like you did with the rest of the statistics you have presented. Your whole purpose with this long drowned out bull crap is to try and prove that there are more counterfeiters than there are legitimate companies and that you think it will justify your negligent use of percentages. The problem with that is it doesnt matter to anyone but you. You still fabricated numbers to try and give your argument traction and you only fell back your "oh, Im just using percents in place of the word majority" excuse after you were called on it. I dont play games like that. There is no way you can spin it that will justify it to me. You are lying to the forum and yourself and I am not going to play a game with someone who simply moves the goal to score a point. I think the only fact you have made clear in this whole thread is that when backed in a corner left to explain your own words you will create any amount of fiction if you think it absolves you of the responsibility of what you typed.

 

[JR88FAN]

1. I don't need to make up anything. There are no fakes that are aimed at being the same quality.

2. All in all knive tolerances aren't anything special, and have decent machinist with any old machine can make them fit. Flipping open some folders and seeing that it works doesn't qualify you to speak subjectively about blade steels and geometries. Lets see some testing videos of these fakes vs. the real thing to support your claims. Controlled testing at that please, not just cutting some paper up.

3. Wrong. The fact of the matter is, a sharpened slab of metal between to slabs of metal ain't rocket science. Why are we discussing quality of fakes again? Nobody cares about them but you. Plenty of production knives with crappy fit and finish too. Blade centering of your average sample of Spydercos sucks in terms of anything close to high tolerance. Not hard to copy that.

- So you admit to buying fakes, supporting fake manufacturers and are actually defending them too? Wow.

4. Post count and 7 years membership doesn't mean anything and will not help you validate your weak argument about fakes being oh so great man. Defending and supporting them shows me what type of man you are too.

Your argument in #1 is destroyed by what you state in #2 and #3.....

So what I take from your argument is that no fakes are aimed to be the quality of knives that have no discerning traits of quality and are fairly simple to make?
Not much to aim for, or an easy target to hit....

I agree with #4 though.

 

[POCEH KOCEB]

...If you are still lost then so is all hope.

I'm not lost at all. Looking at the question in the thread's title, why would he be asking when we all going to be OK with people stealing intellectual property ? When the mentality in this country is changed, than we will be OK with stealing stuff. Your and his gibberish reminds me the BS we got in the thread of the two stolen from the SHOT Show ZT knives, you only didn't say that people are stealing because those greedy manufactures are rising up their prices... Oh wait, didn't you ?
He uses clearly rhetorical example with the Nessmuk knife, what about why Wild Boar is copying the latest Shirogorov models, what's the difference ? The difference is that Nessmuck knives are not selling like crazy, but all of the counterfeiters are, this is the difference. That's why you will see more new designs copied, than Nessmuk, they are in for easy profit.
And why they are stealing the designs ? Because is easier than to come up with some sensible models, they go for your money and you think that you got a deal, purchasing Venom II ? Again - laughable.

 

[POCEH KOCEB]

... The problem with that is it doesnt matter to anyone but you. You still fabricated numbers to try and give your argument traction and you only fell back your "oh, Im just using percents in place of the word majority" excuse after you were called on it. I dont play games like that... You are lying to the forum and yourself and I am not going to play a game with someone who simply moves the goal to score a point. I think the only fact you have made clear in this whole thread is that when backed in a corner left to explain your own words you will create any amount of fiction if you think it absolves you of the responsibility of what you typed.

Well, you can't, not like you don't. See, you keep writing BS instead of shut my mouth with giving me a number: "...so and so companies that I know of are not selling counterfeits..." This is it, do it, don't analyze my words, it's that easy. If you know for a fact that I'm making up stuff, you should be able to counter it with facts, not with fiction. "Corner this, English that..." You are pathetic, give me the names of more than three Chinese companies that I can purchase knives from right now and let's see if they have more models than the well known counterfeiters. Simple as this.

 

[suedeface]

Im so glad I am getting out of the knife thing. Once you step outside for a while you start to see how ridiculous it all is. The standard for a "good knife" is now a 1/2 " thick bladed titanium framelock CNC machined impractical folding knife with a pivot,clip, and hardware from knifekits.com for $750. The reality is most guys buy this stuff for bragging rights, and once that initial rush wears off, buyers remorse sets in and they try to sell said knife at a significant loss and most of the time are stuck with it. It's just a knife. At this point in time there are a lot more important things to worry about. Some people here act like a person knowingly buying a copy of a popular style of knife are personally taking money out of their own pocket because they are such fanboys and think they are king of the cutlery world. Grow up folks.

 

[PURPLEDC]

1. I don't need to make up anything. There are no fakes that are aimed at being the same quality.

2. All in all knive tolerances aren't anything special, and have decent machinist with any old machine can make them fit. Flipping open some folders and seeing that it works doesn't qualify you to speak subjectively about blade steels and geometries. Lets see some testing videos of these fakes vs. the real thing to support your claims. Controlled testing at that please, not just cutting some paper up.

3. Wrong. The fact of the matter is, a sharpened slab of metal between to slabs of metal ain't rocket science. Why are we discussing quality of fakes again? Nobody cares about them but you. Plenty of production knives with crappy fit and finish too. Blade centering of your average sample of Spydercos sucks in terms of anything close to high tolerance. Not hard to copy that.

- So you admit to buying fakes, supporting fake manufacturers and are actually defending them too? Wow.

4. Post count and 7 years membership doesn't mean anything and will not help you validate your weak argument about fakes being oh so great man. Defending and supporting them shows me what type of man you are too.

Listen, I am simply going to say that I think you are an incredibly ignorant person. And every single point you have made has been made before and if you want to read my responses go look them up. The bottom line Is you admit to coming into this thread looking for an argument for arguments sake and I have no desire to fulfill your fantasy. And no matter what way you try and spin this when people think they can speak about the quality of a product with out having any first hand experience with them they are lying to themselves and others. And dont talk to me about tests. Do you know how many people post videos of tests on knives? A lot. And you wanna know what happens? They get picked apart. And there are no controlled tests I could perform and film in any way that you wouldnt be able to make up some BS just like have been to try and discredit those tests. And sure, post count, years as a forum member, years collecting, experience modifying knives? None of that matters when discussing quality.... so, what are YOUR qualifications? You dont need to answere that. Its nothing you cant just make up. And we know your fond of doing that.

 

[JR88FAN]

I'm not lost at all. Looking at the question in the thread's title, why would he be asking when we all going to be OK with people stealing intellectual property ? When the mentality in this country is changed, than we will be OK with stealing stuff. Your and his gibberish reminds me the BS we got in the thread of the two stolen from the SHOT Show ZT knives, you only didn't say that people are stealing because those greedy manufactures are rising up their prices... Oh wait, didn't you ?
He uses clearly rhetorical example with the Nessmuk knife, what about why Wild Boar is copying the latest Shirogorov models, what's the difference ? The difference is that Nessmuck knives are not selling like crazy, but all of the counterfeiters are, this is the difference. That's why you will see more new designs copied, than Nessmuk, they are in for easy profit.
And why they are stealing the designs ? Because is easier than to come up with some sensible models, they go for your money and you think that you got a deal, purchasing Venom II ? Again - laughable.

We just need to go back to a time not so long ago when anything made outside of the USA (with a few exemptions) was hit with a huge tariff.

That will put an end to clones/fakes, and more importantly kick these greedy corporations back into the USA so the people consuming their 'stuff' are making their 'stuff' at a fair wage.

I have seen too much pain just to make a handful of people hit the next level of super rich.

I can live without $20 knives.

 

[stabman]

This thread has gotten personal and ugly.
But hey, it's an emotional topic for pretty much everyone posting, so I guess it was inevitable.

 

[POCEH KOCEB]

This argument can't be about quality.
It's just not relevant.
It could be worse, getting there, or as good. It doesn't matter.
The argument has to be about whether the practice of cloning and it's effects on the industry are something that is acceptable not just morally to us as individuals, but how will clones/fakes effect the industry and the knives we see going forward.....

Sure, I never said all of them are crappy, even I was accused of saying it, of course they'll have decent quality, this is the only quality those knives have, isn't it ? How else they'll sell copies of new models if the craftsmanship is crap ?
But see what you are dealing with, when you tell them that you actually used some of those and seen fakes, he starts talking about a $30 Rat3 and you're getting this, I can't help but laugh, I don't know abut you... :

I didnt want you to bite. I didnt really want a response at all...All of your percentages? You made them up. They are as fake as the knives we are discussing... You are trying to speak to the quality of these product when you are against them and dont buy them. So you have no basis for your claims...Yes people do need to hold (BUY ?) and use fakes to say that. Otherwise how did you come to your conclusion? ...If I havent said It I have read it. You arent schooling anyone on anything here.

And this is when he actually doesn't want to reply to something like this :

... I won't push back if you say that all counterfeiters are thieves, either. That's simply a statement of fact...