When is everyone okay with copying designs?

[bpeezer]

Thats not at all what i said. You seem to be presuming to have inside knowledge of the company if you in fact can say that if they lowered the price that it would cut into other avenues of their business. I honestly dont think anyone here has that knowledge and any speculation is just that, speculation.

What i did say however is that IF (again, IF) theoretically crk or any other company for that matter could cut profits without any ill effects except the extra cushioning to their paycheck i dont expect that they would make that public knowledge and they shouldnt have to. I am simply saying that just because a video comes out and everything in that video might be true it doesnt mean you were given the whole truth. I have no doubt that CRK products are more costly given the fit finish and tolerances. But i think people are a bit naive if they think that there is no premium being paid for the name alone.

Do you think Chris puts over $100 in his pocket from each knife he sells?

 

[craytab]

Which is just mis-characterizing what I said.

Nope. You said it. For reference I even quoted exactly what you said. That is a real thing I did

 

[POCEH KOCEB]

...I'm anti-counterfeiting...Admitting that something criminal is high quality is not the same as justifying the crime.

Not by saying this:

Originally Posted by RX-79G
....Until we wake up to the fact that counterfeits ... can be high quality in their own right..

Why should I wake up to a questionable even for you fact ? What's going to happen when we all wake up to this fact,
we will start buying copies, rather the originals, what's your point anyway, how can you not say that you're not indirectly justifying the act of stealing the designs ?

But wait, there is more:

...I agree that if you should choose to buy counterfeit you are taking a gamble on what you'll get, but I know for a fact that the quality is sometimes excellent...

So is it high quality or sometimes you get excellent quality ? Didn't I use the word "inconsistent"... ?

Why we are disusing the counterfeits anyway if you are against the act ?
I guess the question will be: Would you buy a counterfeit knife ?

 

[RX-79G]

Not by saying this:
Why should I wake up to a questionable even for you fact ? What's going to happen when we all wake up to this fact,
we will start buying copies, rather the originals, what's your point anyway, how can you not say that you're not indirectly justifying the act of stealing the designs ?

But wait, there is more: So is it high quality or sometimes you get excellent quality ? Didn't I use the word "inconsistent"... ?

Why we are disusing the counterfeits anyway if you are against the act ?
I guess the question will be: Would you buy a counterfeit knife ?

I think you and I don't share enough English to have this conversation. You keep equating a statement about quality as MORAL justification on my part for a crime. It is not. I was simply countering the earlier argument that counterfeit knives are ONLY purchased for image, not function. They are also purchased for function, because many of them function nearly as well as the original.

Nope. You said it. For reference I even quoted exactly what you said. That is a real thing I did

You and I appear to share a language, yet all you can post are word games.

If you decide to post your own opinions about anything, I might respond to them. So far, you mostly just repost other people's opinions about other people's opinions. We don't really need a parrot. I'm not interested in having to re-tell you what I said or meant when I already did.

Maybe you could start a thread about what "is" is.

 

[POCEH KOCEB]

So from all this back and forth between two of many Chinese counterfeit companies, your point is that the quality is good. This is great. I breath better now, knowing that I'm not entirely wrong.
But in your own words Chinese for themselves are lying about the counterfeit product they sell... ?

...doesnt account for many knives that chinese sellers CLAIM are made by kevin john or ADAI. Its generally accepted among those who buy these products that Adai and K.John offer the best replicas.
And many chinese sellers will say its a kevin john or Adai knife when it is really made by Wild Boar who is not known for the quality in execution nor the materials.

So if I like to buy a good counterfeit ( not "replica" because they manufacture 99% copies and between all those they can hardly put together one or two original designs) I should get with the people that are buying those products and learn which one of the Chinese companies that are stealing designs, makes the best copy ? I guess this is the price you pay for shaving few bucks by getting those, instead buying the original designs... I'm glad there are people like you, thanks for the suggestion.

...Because those crying about honesty and integrity shouldnt be making their case with lies...

Another great advise, this time for your Chinese friends.

 

[POCEH KOCEB]

I think you and I don't share enough English to have this conversation...

I think you should cut the "English" crap and simply answer the question "Would you buy a counterfeit knife ?" since you're claiming that you don't justify the counterfeit.

 

[RX-79G]

I think you should cut the "English" crap and simply answer the question "Would you buy a counterfeit knife ?" since you're claiming that you don't justify the counterfeit.

MORAL justification on my part for a crime. It is not.

AND
I absolutely did not say stealing was justified. I have repeatedly said the opposite.

AND
If you're going to buy Chinese knives, buy something like an excellent $10 Sanrenmu 704 or a $120 titanium and 440C BokerPlus Federal GTC and at least feel good about being a savvy consumer - because no US company could make those knives for those prices. And the designers of both knives aren't being stolen from in the slightest.

AND
Counterfeit is always illegal,

AND
Really, this thread isn't about counterfeits. We all know they are both wrong and illegal.

I'm sorry those statements seemed so ambiguous. I don't do things that I believe are "wrong" or "illegal", except for speeding, which I seem to do constantly.


Sorry, that might still have not been explicit enough: I don't own and wouldn't buy a counterfeit item.


Sorry, still not crystal clear: I should say that a counterfeit knife is a counterfeit item. I would not buy a counterfeit knife.

 

[RX-79G]

So from all this back and forth between two of many Chinese counterfeit companies, your point is that the quality is good. This is great. I breath better now, knowing that I'm not entirely wrong.
But in your own words Chinese for themselves are lying about the counterfeit product they sell... ?
So if I like to buy a good counterfeit ( not "replica" because they manufacture 99% copies and between all those they can hardly put together one or two original designs) I should get with the people that are buying those products and learn which one of the Chinese companies that are stealing designs, makes the best copy ? I guess this is the price you pay for shaving few bucks by getting those, instead buying the original designs... I'm glad there are people like you, thanks for the suggestion.

Another great advise, this time for your Chinese friends.

DO you know the phrase "preaching to the converted"?


It is possible for adults to discuss wrong doing in a positive light without having to constantly re-state their moral position. The writer of a murder mystery is not in favor of murder, and we are allowed to comment on the construction quality of a counterfeit knife that we would not buy. The anti-counterfeit branch of the Politburo is not monitoring this thread.

 

[PURPLEDC]

Do you think Chris puts over $100 in his pocket from each knife he sells?

What i think is irrelevant. I am simply stating that if he did hes not about to go shouting it from the hilltops. And i dont think any company no matter how reputable operates with complete transparency.

 

[PURPLEDC]

So from all this back and forth between two of many Chinese counterfeit companies, your point is that the quality is good. This is great. I breath better now, knowing that I'm not entirely wrong.
But in your own words Chinese for themselves are lying about the counterfeit product they sell... ?
So if I like to buy a good counterfeit ( not "replica" because they manufacture 99% copies and between all those they can hardly put together one or two original designs) I should get with the people that are buying those products and learn which one of the Chinese companies that are stealing designs, makes the best copy ? I guess this is the price you pay for shaving few bucks by getting those, instead buying the original designs... I'm glad there are people like you, thanks for the suggestion.

Another great advise, this time for your Chinese friends.

The difference between me and you is i dont stigmatize a whole country for the acts of a few. You see "the chinese". I see various groups of people from manufacturers to sellers to consumers. just like it is here. So when i say it doesnt account for the knives being sold as those brands when they arent I am not talking about "the chinese". I am talking about a dealer (single entity)that chooses to be dishonest. That one persons act doesnt qualify them as representing all of china. Thats like saying all americans buy clones because purpledc does. So if you want to take a shot at every sketchy angle you can play this manipulating words and over generalizing a whole nation over the acts of a few have fun. The only point I wanted to make in the first place was that you are taking way to many liberties talking on a subject you have no first hand knowledge of. You only know what you have read on other forums which im sorry is about as credible as a good wikipedia article.

 

[POCEH KOCEB]

The difference between me and you is .... I am talking about a dealer (single entity)that chooses to be dishonest. That one persons act doesnt qualify them as representing all of china...

Unfortunately for you, you are conveniently missing the fact that this dishonest person(or dealer for that matter), along with the "honest"-ones, are selling counterfeits along with the 99% of all Chinese companies selling folding knifes. All your verbiage is to justify this fact and in the last post, to manipulate my words, simply because the phrase I used was "Chinese companies that are stealing designs ", not flaming the whole country.


Please don't elaborate further what's the difference between me and you because you don't know jack $#!t about me.

 

[POCEH KOCEB]

... to discuss wrong doing in a positive light without having to constantly re-state their moral position....The anti-counterfeit branch of the Politburo is not monitoring this thread.

"Politburo"...
One more word to the list of terms you guys don't know the meaning of... "Moral position" now "Politburo" Please don't use words you don't understand,
I lived for 30 years under Politburo's wing, your gibberish about how wonderful are the Chinese copies works directly in favor of the Politburo. Chinese Politburo.

What is "discussing wrong-doing in positive light..." ?
So after all you think that there is nothing wrong with counterfeiting, as long as they do it right ? Please, just answer this as short as you can, and I won't bother you anymore.

 

[RX-79G]

Unfortunately for you, you are conveniently missing the fact that this dishonest person(or dealer for that matter), along with the "honest"-ones, are selling counterfeits along with the 99% of all Chinese companies selling folding knifes. All your verbiage is to justify this fact.

Please don't elaborate further what's the difference between me and you because you don't know jack $#!t about me.

What we know about you is that you are comfortable making statements about 99% of Chineses folding knife companies.

I'm pretty sure you are the only one on this thread making such incredibly expansive claims. You've lost my interest.

 

[RX-79G]

So after all you think that there is nothing wrong with counterfeiting, as long as they do it right ?

Nope.

Please, just answer this as short as you can, and I won't bother you anymore.

You have a deal.

 

[POCEH KOCEB]

What we know about you is that you are comfortable making statements about 99% of Chineses folding knife companies.
I'm pretty sure you are the only one on this thread making such incredibly expansive claims. You've lost my interest.

I never fought for your interest.
Of course I'm comfortable making such claims, how many Chinese companies that are not producing counterfeit folders do you know of, and what is their percentage to the rest of the guys flooding Aliexpress and DX with crap ?

 

[sirupatespecial]

I've seen a bunch of posts here that seem to go against the "First Law Of Capitalism". Which is supply and demand.

Would CR make more money by reducing pricing? Quite possibly. He would also have to increase production, hire more employees, increase overhead, probably cut down on his "free time", and a bunch of other "stuff". Personally, I would rather be a low production, high profit small firm that exists based on demand. It's a lot easier, not easy, but less headache, to not have to put up with the B.S. of selling 100,000 of anything as opposed to 1,000 of something. If you are a privately owned business.

Or, he could just sell his name and rights to his product to, Oh say....KAI and retire to the Caribbean. I know what I would do. I love the sun and sand so If I were him I'd just give it up. But then again, I don't have a passion for making knives.

 

[RX-79G]

I've seen a bunch of posts here that seem to go against the "First Law Of Capitalism". Which is supply and demand.

Would CR make more money by reducing pricing? Quite possibly. He would also have to increase production, hire more employees, increase overhead, probably cut down on his "free time", and a bunch of other "stuff". Personally, I would rather be a low production, high profit small firm that exists based on demand. It's a lot easier, not easy, but less headache, to not have to put up with the B.S. of selling 100,000 of anything as opposed to 1,000 of something. If you are a privately owned business.

Or, he could just sell his name and rights to his product to, Oh say....KAI and retire to the Caribbean. I know what I would do. I love the sun and sand so If I were him I'd just give it up. But then again, I don't have a passion for making knives.

Increasing supply by increasing production lowers demand. Lowering price lowers demand if your target market is a luxury item buyer.

If CRK lowered its profit from $75 to $25 by cutting the price from $400 to $350 (for instance), would they sell more than 3 times more knives than before to make up for losing 2/3 of the profit? I doubt it.

Would competing directly against $200-$300 brands like ZT be actually good for CRK's business? Again, I doubt it.


CRK did consider selling a Sebanza thingy with CRKT, but Reeve couldn't approve the quality.

Price point is perception is demand.

 

[plue]

I'm just gonna throw my 2c in there, I can't stand counterfeits and knock offs. I think people who buy them and claim to be knife enthusiasts are pretty worthless. The whole point of the hobby is collecting quality knives and supporting knife makers, and you get a knife of crap quality just for the "name" you have no idea what you are doing. All you get is an imitated design, with none the true factors that interest a knife Knut. This is why I hate the Reddit knifeclub community, most of the higher end knives on there are fakes, and everyone thinks it's justifiable.

 

[RX-79G]

I'm just gonna throw my 2c in there, I can't stand counterfeits and knock offs. I think people who buy them and claim to be knife enthusiasts are pretty worthless. The whole point of the hobby is collecting quality knives and supporting knife makers, and you get a knife of crap quality just for the "name" you have no idea what you are doing. All you get is an imitated design, with none the true factors that interest a knife Knut. This is why I hate the Reddit knifeclub community, most of the higher end knives on there are fakes, and everyone thinks it's justifiable.

Okay, well stated. Would you buy a custom knifemaker's "Bowie" or "Nessmuk" knife?

 

[PURPLEDC]

Unfortunately for you, you are conveniently missing the fact that this dishonest person(or dealer for that matter), along with the "honest"-ones, are selling counterfeits along with the 99% of all Chinese companies selling folding knifes. All your verbiage is to justify this fact and in the last post, to manipulate my words, simply because the phrase I used was "Chinese companies that are stealing designs ", not flaming the whole country.


Please don't elaborate further what's the difference between me and you because you don't know jack $#!t about me.

See there you go again. Using percentages to try give your argument a sense of legitimacy whilst everyone knows you are pulling numbers out of thin air. You could have said 100% 50% or 75% and all it really means is you have no idea where you got the number, and that you hope it will fool people into thinking you know what you're talking about. And its another example of you generalizing a whole nation while in the next sentence you blaim it on claiming I am manipulating your words. You are the one who manipulates words. In fact I pointed that out a few posts ago. But in the tradition of you not being able to complete an original thought you simply tried flipping it back on me further solidifying my theory that you simply like to parrot what others write. And as for what I do or dont know about you? I know what I need to know. And its more than I want to know.

I never fought for your interest.
Of course I'm comfortable making such claims, how many Chinese companies that are not producing counterfeit folders do you know of, and what is their percentage to the rest of the guys flooding Aliexpress and DX with crap ?

Well we could throw out random percentages and names with absolutely no evidence or facts to back it up but that is more your style. The point here is you feel you can fabricate fiction to validate your argument. None of us INCLUDING YOU know the answer to the question you just asked. But only you will pretend to know the answer. So funny the preachers of honesty when they have to resort to fiction to make their case. Oh sweet hypocrisy how you love to work your wonder.

1. I'm just gonna throw my 2c in there, I can't stand counterfeits and knock offs.

2. I think people who buy them and claim to be knife enthusiasts are pretty worthless.

3. The whole point of the hobby is collecting quality knives and supporting knife makers

4., and you get a knife of crap quality just for the "name" you have no idea what you are doing. All you get is an imitated design, with none the true factors that interest a knife Knut.

5. This is why I hate the Reddit knifeclub community, most of the higher end knives on there are fakes, and everyone thinks it's justifiable.

Hope you dont mind me numbering your points. It just makes it easier to counter them and have people follow it. This is how I would respond.

1. I can appreciate your position and I respect your choice.

2. You may think I am pretty worthless. But my experience and knowledge in replicas has actually saved a lot of people a lot of money. This week I think I authenticated 4 knives for various people wanting to know if they got a fake. In 3 of those instances they in deed did or would have bought the fake. They felt that had some worth.

3. Maybe for you that is the point of the hobby. The reasons for why people get into this hobby are just as diverse as the knives we collect. Different market, different buyers different motives.

4. This seems to be yet another general statement where someone who doesnt buy a product and has no first hand experience with it will develop an opinion of the quality of that product based only on the moral and ethical shortcomings which is like saying a generic bag of chips is crap because they are trying to make them taste like the brand name chips.

5. I personally dont try to justify my actions. I dont need others acceptance on the issue. Id be a fool to think I would ever get it knowing what I know about people who dislike such products. I also dont care if people hate the products I like. The ONLY thing I am advocating for is that if people are going to hate something then I think they should do it for the right reasons. And fabricating fiction about knives simply because people dont like what they think they stand for to me is wrong as well. Hate if you want to hate but do it for the right reasons. Morals and ethics fine I get that and I have no argument. I guess I understand. If people who dislike clones can keep the myth that they are poor quality alive then it makes it easier for them to steer others clear of buying a product they dont agree with. But what good is an argument you root in honesty and integrity if people have to lie to get their point across?