Where do you go to use your knives?

[l1ranger]

a couple of things to keep in mind as we go through this conversation

we live in many different places - what is a good option in one is not always a good option in others.

I consider myself blessed to live on rural acreage with a large tract of national forest in my back yard - others wouldnt care for it so much

 

[pinnah]

You keep mentioning Meru, but have you yourself attempted anything like that? I thought you lived in MA? As I understand it the highest peak there is below 3,500ft, so not much of a mountain even by our standards. Also, you aren’t the only mountaineer on this forum, not by any means. Tread carefully.

Heya.

I've only mentioned Meru as the documentary is an accessible demonstration of the techniques that allow for winter backcountry travel without relying on making fire.

Most of my winter climbing and ski touring trips are done in the White Mountain/Presidential Range in New Hampshire. I've also done winter trips in Vermont and the Sierra in California.

There's no chest thumping from me on these points. My accomplishments and aspirations in the mountains are pretty pedestrian.

The only salient point to made here relative to the OP's original post is that fire making is an important skill (I've already noted that I taught my kids), it's much less important in terms of safety compared to other skills (stoves, clothing, shelter) and ultimately not needed for most winter backcountry travel. I simply offered the reference to Meru as the documentary shows a multi-week expedition in the harshest of conditions with no fires or fixed blades - hence an example of my point.

 

[SpySmasher]

I go to life.

 

[pinnah]

It's not all about need dude. What you fail to understand is, that I WANT a fire and I'd care take a gander, that most folks that go into the woods want a fire as well. Fire is the heart of camp, keeps you warm, cooks lots of food quickly, dries your clothes out, brings a sense of companionship, keeps wild animals away, provides light around your camp area, keeps multiple people warm when hanging out, etc.

If people want to make fires in the backcountry and it's legal to do, they should do it. Good heavens, nothing I've said would suggest otherwise. I love fires in the backcountry when it's possible.

All I've said is that there are other skills that are more important and ultimately, fires aren't needed, even in the winter.

Somehow you've twisted that to me saying you shouldn't have a fire? Nope. Never said that.

Don't ever come backpacking or camping down here. You will be in for a huge culture shock when you see campfires roaring and big, scary knives strapped to packs.

I'm not scared of big knives, nor offended. Those are your words, not mine.

What I said is that I'm suspicious of people who open carry fixed blades on the trail when there's no obvious need them to have fast access to a fixed blade. If you're clearly hunting or fishing, I wouldn't give your knife a second look. If we're in uncleared terrain and you're using your blade to cut through the brush, same thing. I do that myself sometimes. If we're in terrain with dangerous game, I would look at it differently (although pepper spray and hand guns might be more in order).

I think your reaction here is more based on you not liking that fact that knives worn for no clear purpose might be disapproved of? We'll just have to agree to disagree on that front.

 

[Pilsner]

Heya.

I've only mentioned Meru as the documentary is an accessible demonstration of the techniques that allow for winter backcountry travel without relying on making fire.

Most of my winter climbing and ski touring trips are done in the White Mountain/Presidential Range in New Hampshire. I've also done winter trips in Vermont and the Sierra in California.

There's no chest thumping from me on these points. My accomplishments and aspirations in the mountains are pretty pedestrian.

The only salient point to made here relative to the OP's original post is that fire making is an important skill (I've already noted that I taught my kids), it's much less important in terms of safety compared to other skills (stoves, clothing, shelter) and ultimately not needed for most winter backcountry travel. I simply offered the reference to Meru as the documentary shows a multi-week expedition in the harshest of conditions with no fires or fixed blades - hence an example of my point.

There is a lot in that I agree with. If you haven’t read it, try ‘Savage Arena’ by the late Joe Tasker, who died with Peter Boardman on Everest. They pioneered the two man strike assault into the death zone back in the 70’s, designed their own gear etc. Prior to that it cost loads of cash, huge expedition, big team, and so on. These guys went together and achieved something quite remarkable. You would definitely enjoy it, for sure. I won’t spoil it but they ‘camped’ in a way that is truly awe inspiring.

 

[91bravo]

None of this justifies carrying a fixed blade out in the open while hiking on maintained trails though, which is at the core of the OPs first post. IMO, carrying a fixed blade out in the open on maintained trails on public lands simply attracts suspicion and attention.

The only person that would be suspicious and draw attention to, would be you. You would DEFINITELY be out of your element here. Nothing suspicious about having a large knife showing when you're on the trails.

What I said is that I'm suspicious of people who open carry fixed blades on the trail when there's no obvious need them to have fast access to a fixed blade. If you're clearly hunting or fishing, I wouldn't give your knife a second look. If we're in uncleared terrain and you're using your blade to cut through the brush, same thing. I do that myself sometimes. If we're in terrain with dangerous game, I would look at it differently (although pepper spray and hand guns might be more in order).

I think your reaction here is more based on you not liking that fact that knives worn for no clear purpose might be disapproved of? We'll just have to agree to disagree on that front.

So how would you know if I was hunting or fishing? You wouldn't give your attention or suspicion to anyone with a loaded firearm, but you would a hiker with a knife strapped to his pack? Doesn't make sense. What if I had a big 6D Maglite attached to my pack? Or what if I looked between 15-35 years old? Your logic makes no sense...at all.

Yes, fire would be needed for all of the reasons I mentioned earlier. I want to see how you're gonna keep someone from hypothermia with your little alcoholic stove....educate me please. I can promise you, I can keep someone a whole helluva lot warmer with a large wooden fire, than a puny flame from an alcoholic stove.

 

[pinnah]

Pilsner,

To give you some idea of winter climbing and skiing in New Hampshire...

Tuckerman Ravine's major routes. I've skied Right Gully from the top, Left Gully and Chute from partway up. These top out at around 40 degrees. The headwall lip (which is often undercut with crevasses), Dukes and few other lines up there are in the 45-50 degree territory. That stuff is beyond my ability even when I was at my skiing peak.

The Whites have several small ranges with sustained above tree line conditions. I've done Adams (location of this shot, not mine) numerous time as it's a relative "safe" peak, meaning that there are routes to the summit that avoid significant "slide of life" risk, hence can be done without an axe. My admittedly pedestrian approach is that if the route requires an ice axe, I'm not proceeding. Another winter favorite is the Franconia Ridge and Lafayette.

As I've gotten older, winter trips now generally mean backcountry touring. This terrain is pretty typical. I no longer seek out avalanche terrain and no fall zones. Fires are more common for backcountry touring. The elevations are lower, dead fall more plentiful.

Tripyramid Slide by Pinnah, on Flickr

I suspect we'd find similarities between the Whites and Scottish Highlands.

 

[pinnah]

Yes, fire would be needed for all of the reasons I mentioned earlier. I want to see how you're gonna keep someone from hypothermia with your little alcoholic stove....educate me please. I can promise you, I can keep someone a whole helluva lot warmer with a large wooden fire, than a puny flame from an alcoholic stove.

I'd recommend the following books to you.

"The Backpacker's Handbook" by Chris Townsend. IMO, Townsend's book is the best discussion of modern backpacking gear. No offense to Colin Fletcher.

"The Freedom of the Hills" by The Seattle Mountaineers also has some discussion cold weather clothing and techniques.

Short version, is you rely on syntethic clothing next to your skin, high loft insulation on the outside including a warm sleeping bag and an enclosed shelter like a tent or tarp/tent. Our mountains are too nasty to camp above treelike (and it's strongly discouraged) so I use a "Megamid" style tarp/tent in the winter. As I've noted before, I've been on several trips where people have fallen in rivers and we managed just fine with no fires. Both trips where in the -5f range. I draw the line at -10f now. Going down below that requires a whole different level of equipment and things go badly very fast.

I think people easily and wrongly over-estimate the utility of open fires in deep snow. It's a lot of work to harvest and process the wood, and you have to deal with the fire burning its way down in deep snow pack. I find a small folding wood stove to make a lot more sense for winter survival as they're easier to feed and manage and can be used to keep a tarp or tarp tent warm. This is more along the lines of a scout fire.

"Meru" is worth the watch. It's an incredible story.

 

[Pilsner]

Pilsner,

To give you some idea of winter climbing and skiing in New Hampshire...

Tuckerman Ravine's major routes. I've skied Right Gully from the top, Left Gully and Chute from partway up. These top out at around 40 degrees. The headwall lip (which is often undercut with crevasses), Dukes and few other lines up there are in the 45-50 degree territory. That stuff is beyond my ability even when I was at my skiing peak.

The Whites have several small ranges with sustained above tree line conditions. I've done Adams (location of this shot, not mine) numerous time as it's a relative "safe" peak, meaning that there are routes to the summit that avoid significant "slide of life" risk, hence can be done without an axe. My admittedly pedestrian approach is that if the route requires an ice axe, I'm not proceeding. Another winter favorite is the Franconia Ridge and Lafayette.

As I've gotten older, winter trips now generally mean backcountry touring. This terrain is pretty typical. I no longer seek out avalanche terrain and no fall zones. Fires are more common for backcountry touring. The elevations are lower, dead fall more plentiful.

Tripyramid Slide by Pinnah, on Flickr

I suspect we'd find similarities between the Whites and Scottish Highlands.

Looks absolutely cracking to me. I can understand why you love it. I would too.

 

[Pilsner]

I’ll say one thing on fires. I often don’t have the chance, did a mountain camp with my younger son in October and it was totally out of the question.

That being said, a fire does something very important in a dire situation, which I trust and pray that none of us will find ourselves in. It brings hope, not just warmth. The psychology of ‘survival’ is the single most important thing. Getting a fire going, stopping, getting warm, feeling a sense of achievement. That is golden, worth the calories in most cases and advisable.

For Jonny and his family, a fire is clearly a very important thing that should not be sniffed at. When I got the whole family out with me last year, if we hadn’t basically had a fire the whole time, it would not have been the same experience and we cherish the memory. They all want to do it again. That is a win in my book. I doubt I’ll get them out in February with me, but I am quite happy about that, to be honest.

 

[91bravo]

There's no such thing as above/below treeline camping here. Camp is wherever you want it to be. In the bottoms under the canopies, or even on the mountain peak, where the views are breathtaking. I'm not saying that fire is "needed" to survive here in this geographical location, but it's highly welcomed. If you have the appropriate gear and skills, and plenty of seasoned deadfall lying all around you, why would you have anything else BUT a hot, wooden fire? Fire is the heart of camp, because camping should be fun. A camp without fire is a camp without fun.

 

[Pilsner]

There's no such thing as above/below treeline camping here. Camp is wherever you want it to be. In the bottoms under the canopies, or even on the mountain peak, where the views are breathtaking. I'm not saying that fire is "needed" to survive here in this geographical location, but it's highly welcomed. If you have the appropriate gear and skills, and plenty of seasoned deadfall lying all around you, why would you have anything else BUT a hot, wooden fire? Fire is the heart of camp, because camping should be fun. A camp without fire is a camp without fun.

I agree with everything but the last bit, Jonny! How about this site?

Me and J [aged 13] had a brilliant time. We were warm because we packed for it. We were actually camping completely illegally in a National Park. But we are funny in Britain, if you don’t take the piss they leave you alone. Lighting a fire in a spot like that one is taking the piss. I could have taken him somewhere else, but why? We loved it.

If I could have taken him up to Scotland on that lightning strike, we could have done it. But we can’t always have our cake and eat it. I would’ve needed to take time off work and take him out of school. D’ya think my wife would have liked the last bit? Imperilling his life on a precipitous ridge climb, AND taking time off school?! Are you crazy???!!!

Camping is great with a fire, but it can also be great without one. There has actually been some good stuff in this thread from all sides. We don’t all have to like each other, but I have learned a few things about all you guys, things that I respect.

Would love to visit you, Mike and Pinnah. Just because where you live looks great, understand that!

Mike, we’ve just been booking our time in the SW next Summer. Looking forward to it. Last time I saw New Mexico was 1991. I suspect it may not have changed too much! We are also paying a ball crunchingly huge sum to stay a few nights in Yosemite at the end, somewhere I have never been.

Now, on with the argument!

 

[22-rimfire]

....I think your reaction here is more based on you not liking that fact that knives worn for no clear purpose might be disapproved of? We'll just have to agree to disagree on that front.

I think so too for the most part. I for one really don't want a big knife flopping around on my belt out in the woods unless I need the knife. For hunting and fishing, "big" is not generally necessary and often a hindrance in getting the "work done". Of course, I can slip the big knife inside a day pack if I choose to or strap it onto the outside. For the most part, carrying big knives is just because you want to and that is fine by me. If I wanted to, I would and do occasionally.

It all boils down to not really needing a fixed blade that often in the woods when I have a folder on me too. But my favored size is a tad larger than many here at 5-6" versus 4-4.5". This often feels big to me unless I'm trying to chop with it and then it's a little small.

In the Smoky Mts in TN/NC and adjacent Blue Ridge in general, it is possible to get above the tree line (just barely). I do like a camp fire. Stay safe.

 

[DB_Cruiser]

I live in the sticks and work in the city. I go to work and use my smaller, cheaper traditional knives. In the yard, I am processing a pair of massive hickories that came down in a freak storm earlier this year. I use it all. Chainsaws, axes, machetes, pocket knives and fixed blades. When I go hunting, I bring my favorite folder and a Mora along with the gun.

 

[91bravo]

I agree with everything but the last bit, Jonny! How about this site?

Me and J [aged 13] had a brilliant time. We were warm because we packed for it. We were actually camping completely illegally in a National Park. But we are funny in Britain, if you don’t take the piss they leave you alone. Lighting a fire in a spot like that one is taking the piss. I could have taken him somewhere else, but why? We loved it.

If I could have taken him up to Scotland on that lightning strike, we could have done it. But we can’t always have our cake and eat it. I would’ve needed to take time off work and take him out of school. D’ya think my wife would have liked the last bit? Imperilling his life on a precipitous ridge climb, AND taking time off school?! Are you crazy???!!!

Camping is great with a fire, but it can also be great without one. There has actually been some good stuff in this thread from all sides. We don’t all have to like each other, but I have learned a few things about all you guys, things that I respect.

Would love to visit you, Mike and Pinnah. Just because where you live looks great, understand that!

Mike, we’ve just been booking our time in the SW next Summer. Looking forward to it. Last time I saw New Mexico was 1991. I suspect it may not have changed too much! We are also paying a ball crunchingly huge sum to stay a few nights in Yosemite at the end, somewhere I have never been.

Now, on with the argument!

That's nice! Where are you at? I've just NEVER camped anywhere, where I couldn't build a fire. Maybe I'm just spoiled that's all.

The part about me not liking the fact that wearing a knife on my belt might be disapproved of? That's a crock of shite, because it's not even an issue here. If folks frown upon my knife, then what would they do when seeing my pistol? See? Geographical differences! You no fire, me fire every time....

 

[22-rimfire]

If I carry a handgun in the woods, it is usually the most comfortable way that I know and that is outside carry (non-concealed). On occasion I place the handgun in my pack, but I know that amounts to not carrying a gun at all except for a survival situation that develops slowly.

 

[craytab]

I will say that a fair bit of camping we do, fires aren't allowed. It's astronomy related. No white light of any kind. Fires are out of the question. That said, it is in some of the most remote parts of the state I live. But also in places that are 2 hours from nyc. Guess what I always have on my hip? A decent sized fixed blade. Plenty of fun to be had during the day playing in the woods. Chopping up stuff, making various things. No fires at night. And also guess what? Not one person has ever had an issue with me carrying a big knife, including park rangers and wild life managment folks. I even had a fellow astronomy enthusiast notice my esee 5 and wanted to show me his old school seki SOG. Very cool conversation.

Here you can carry and use knives as you please so long as you are a normal respectful and responsible acting human. And again, I live not that far from the biggest city in the USA.

And a pic, because pics are good.

 

[91bravo]

I'll sometimes strap an axe to my pack too.

 

[91bravo]

For all the baton haters too

And for all the folks who can't build fires when camping, I sympathize!

 

[fjblair]

Can you share the name of the park with us. I hope that we can put use this thread to put together a list of suitable destinations.

n2s

Dude, any state or federal park would suffice.