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Price is $300 ea (shipped within CONUS). If you live outside the US, I will contact you after your order for extra shipping charges.
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Where Has Mad Dog Gone?
- Thread starter Pointy!
- Start date
- Joined
- Oct 16, 1998
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- 2,395
Sundsvall,
It seems to me that you are looking for documentation to prove the existence of the elephant that is standing in front of you. There are thousands of Mad Dog knives in the field, with only a hand full ever having been returned to Mad Dog with problems. Only two replacements were ever denied, one of them being the second knife that Cliff broke - the first one was replaced.
You are asking for data to disprove non-existent problems. That is why the data is so hard to come by.
Given the absurdity with which Mad Dog knives have been discussed here in the past, it is understandable that some one without any experience with a Mad Dog knife would be skeptical. However, if the designs appeal to you, as they do to me, you have to look at the big picture.
Mad Dog does his own quality assurance, but again, at the heart of the matter, Mad Dog knives are very simple objects. Simple steel, with simple heat treating. They are as durable as any piece of quarter inch steel with a very hard edge. No more, no less.
Yes, it does. There are one or two more corrosion resistant coatings out there, and one or two of them may even be more durable, but hard chrome does protect the blade from rust to a large extent. Marine Tuff cloth, or other corrosion inhibitor is still recommended by Mad Dog to protect his blades.
The most rigorous test of the hard chrome I have performed was a two week camp on the beach in Alaska a couple of years ago. A 52100 blade with a Parkerized finish rusted with gusto. My Mad Dog Pack Rat only rusted at the edge. I was very glad to have the hard chrome on that blade on that trip.
Again, look at the basic reality. 63 RcH is hard. Mad Dog does that so that the knives will hold an edge. That's the way he likes them, and that's the way he makes them. I like them that way too.
The tempered spines are very tough. If you use the quarter inch spine, you can pry with a Mad Dog with heavy loads. If, however you apply extreme lateral loads to the edge where it is both hard and less thick, it is quite possible to break it. I have done enough chopping with my Mad Dogs to be perfectly satisfied with the edge durability for my expectations. If you want an ulitimately tough chopping blade, go to a different maker and get a blade made out of 5160.
Mad Dog uses the same, or better, epoxy (not glue) that every other knife maker uses. Mad Dog knives have the added advantage of having a fully enclosed tang. There is no issue with hand made knives with exposed tangs rusting under the epoxy of the handle slabs, and there is no issue with tangs rusting under the handle of Mad Dogs either. It just ain't happening, not to any knife maker who uses epoxy to attach the handles of his or her knives.
This has been an issue for only two Mad Dog owners. Ever. One was Cliff, the other was a case of extreme misuse. Mad Dog is Mad Dog, and if he doesn't like you, he won't waste his time on you. I'm no high-speed, low drag operator, and Mad Dog has always been friendly and open-hearted with me, so nobody can claim that you have to be Dick Marcinko to get good customer service from him.
They certainly have been...you have read enough of the threads to be able to list the negative issues pretty well...go back and read them again, and keep an eye out for the positive posts from people such as myself, Beau Springer, Nyeti, and a few others.
It seems to me that you are looking for documentation to prove the existence of the elephant that is standing in front of you. There are thousands of Mad Dog knives in the field, with only a hand full ever having been returned to Mad Dog with problems. Only two replacements were ever denied, one of them being the second knife that Cliff broke - the first one was replaced.
You are asking for data to disprove non-existent problems. That is why the data is so hard to come by.
Given the absurdity with which Mad Dog knives have been discussed here in the past, it is understandable that some one without any experience with a Mad Dog knife would be skeptical. However, if the designs appeal to you, as they do to me, you have to look at the big picture.
Mad Dog does his own quality assurance, but again, at the heart of the matter, Mad Dog knives are very simple objects. Simple steel, with simple heat treating. They are as durable as any piece of quarter inch steel with a very hard edge. No more, no less.
Yes, it does. There are one or two more corrosion resistant coatings out there, and one or two of them may even be more durable, but hard chrome does protect the blade from rust to a large extent. Marine Tuff cloth, or other corrosion inhibitor is still recommended by Mad Dog to protect his blades.
The most rigorous test of the hard chrome I have performed was a two week camp on the beach in Alaska a couple of years ago. A 52100 blade with a Parkerized finish rusted with gusto. My Mad Dog Pack Rat only rusted at the edge. I was very glad to have the hard chrome on that blade on that trip.
Again, look at the basic reality. 63 RcH is hard. Mad Dog does that so that the knives will hold an edge. That's the way he likes them, and that's the way he makes them. I like them that way too.
The tempered spines are very tough. If you use the quarter inch spine, you can pry with a Mad Dog with heavy loads. If, however you apply extreme lateral loads to the edge where it is both hard and less thick, it is quite possible to break it. I have done enough chopping with my Mad Dogs to be perfectly satisfied with the edge durability for my expectations. If you want an ulitimately tough chopping blade, go to a different maker and get a blade made out of 5160.
Mad Dog uses the same, or better, epoxy (not glue) that every other knife maker uses. Mad Dog knives have the added advantage of having a fully enclosed tang. There is no issue with hand made knives with exposed tangs rusting under the epoxy of the handle slabs, and there is no issue with tangs rusting under the handle of Mad Dogs either. It just ain't happening, not to any knife maker who uses epoxy to attach the handles of his or her knives.
This has been an issue for only two Mad Dog owners. Ever. One was Cliff, the other was a case of extreme misuse. Mad Dog is Mad Dog, and if he doesn't like you, he won't waste his time on you. I'm no high-speed, low drag operator, and Mad Dog has always been friendly and open-hearted with me, so nobody can claim that you have to be Dick Marcinko to get good customer service from him.
They certainly have been...you have read enough of the threads to be able to list the negative issues pretty well...go back and read them again, and keep an eye out for the positive posts from people such as myself, Beau Springer, Nyeti, and a few others.
- Joined
- Oct 16, 1998
- Messages
- 2,395
Sunsvol, you need to look at what's happening in the real world. The handles are not falling off of Mad Dog knives. They get at least as much rough use as the next knife, and the handles are not coming back to the maker to be epoxied back on. There is a hole drilled in the tang through which epoxy does form, but even if there was not, the handles of Mad Dog knives are quite reliably attached.
You really should go to Tim Tang's Taiwan Mad Dog site and take the virtual Mad Dog shop tour. Many of your questions will be answered. You may be particularly interested in the Torture Test section.
http://mdk.idv.tw/tour/tim/supertour.htm
- Joined
- May 9, 2000
- Messages
- 29,205
When I checked on the mdenterprise site they state that the hardness of the edge on MD knives is 62 RC and the spine is 50-54 RC. This makes a whole lot more sense to me than 58 RC if you are looking for toughness.
Sundsvall I am not offended, since I'm not Kevin. However, if I was Kevin, I might be offended by your implied criticism and dirt dredging. I was trying to tell you why Kevin may not have answered all your questions, and also tell you that many of your answers were readily available w/o talking to Kevin. You say other knife makers respond to similar questions, but I bet they haven't been flamed off Bladeforums either. It's not your questions alone, but the context of your questions. I think Steve did a great job answering all your concerns, now go out and buy one and tell us what you think.
See, I knew that it was possible to ask questions and get answers that are focused on the question without all the huffing and puffing and blowing houses down.
Thanks Steve. That is exactly the kind of response I was looking for. Rhetoric that directly address the specified issues backed by specific examples of real life experiences with said knife.
As for Brownshoe, get a grip man. This is not dirt dredging or critism or mudslinging or contempt or anything else. They are specific questions about the materials, design, and warranty.
Put it this way. This is business, it is an offer to remove money and replace with product. If you can't even talk in calm unparanoid fashion about your product, it may be difficult to land a sale with a newbie. That is all. Even if they are someone elses, questions, if you don't reply, then they don't get answers.
So Brownshoe, you need to chill out and clear out those negative preconcieved notions and suspect alterior motives from your head. You are getting irked by an nonexistant needle. Your response might even be Pavlovian.
Also, I went through some 50 odd threads with hundreds of posts at three different forums looking this stuff up, so excuse me if all of the information is not 100% correct. I would add that it would be less difficult if the information was provided by one source.
I can see why people won't touch this subject with a 10 foot pole - for fear of reprisal from those who misconstrue questions as personal attacks - sheesh.
I am looking at the Panther. Big bucks for the Panther, and a long wait, so you'll have to pardon me if I don't fire off faster than a speeding bullet to place my order.
Thanks Steve. That is exactly the kind of response I was looking for. Rhetoric that directly address the specified issues backed by specific examples of real life experiences with said knife.
As for Brownshoe, get a grip man. This is not dirt dredging or critism or mudslinging or contempt or anything else. They are specific questions about the materials, design, and warranty.
Put it this way. This is business, it is an offer to remove money and replace with product. If you can't even talk in calm unparanoid fashion about your product, it may be difficult to land a sale with a newbie. That is all. Even if they are someone elses, questions, if you don't reply, then they don't get answers.
So Brownshoe, you need to chill out and clear out those negative preconcieved notions and suspect alterior motives from your head. You are getting irked by an nonexistant needle. Your response might even be Pavlovian.
Also, I went through some 50 odd threads with hundreds of posts at three different forums looking this stuff up, so excuse me if all of the information is not 100% correct. I would add that it would be less difficult if the information was provided by one source.
I can see why people won't touch this subject with a 10 foot pole - for fear of reprisal from those who misconstrue questions as personal attacks - sheesh.
I am looking at the Panther. Big bucks for the Panther, and a long wait, so you'll have to pardon me if I don't fire off faster than a speeding bullet to place my order.
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2002
- Messages
- 42
IMHO, the reason why Mad Dog does not need to address everyone's fears and doubts about his methods or his knives is because they work--and many people know this. So many people that Mad Dog can't make knives fast enough for them.
He seems quite content doing business the way he has for years and he's not trying to expand his operations like many other custom turned semi-production knife makers have done. If mad Dog decided to mass produce his blades for a larger market, then Sundsvall, he would need to defend his product against charges such as yours. As it stands now, and for the foreseeable future, he doesn't need you, or your questions. You may not like, but I'm sure that it's not hurting his sales.
Mark
He seems quite content doing business the way he has for years and he's not trying to expand his operations like many other custom turned semi-production knife makers have done. If mad Dog decided to mass produce his blades for a larger market, then Sundsvall, he would need to defend his product against charges such as yours. As it stands now, and for the foreseeable future, he doesn't need you, or your questions. You may not like, but I'm sure that it's not hurting his sales.
Mark
Whatever man. Get a grip.
I made no charges and I merely asked questions. If you can't tell the difference I can't help you.
Can this hostility be the projection of some other shortcoming?
Anyway, I said what I was going to say. So as much as Mad Dog doesn't need me. I don't need you telling me so.
I made no charges and I merely asked questions. If you can't tell the difference I can't help you.
Can this hostility be the projection of some other shortcoming?
Anyway, I said what I was going to say. So as much as Mad Dog doesn't need me. I don't need you telling me so.
Also, for the rest of you guys that are thinking of jumping in just to hammer on me:
If you don't read the thread before doing so, I am just going to ignore your comments.
Because, clearly anyone who is defending MDK against my "dirt dredging charges" either doesn't want to read or can't read. Either of which is not my problem.
So, I will say it one last time. I am a MDK atheist. I don't belive anything about it either way. If you guys can stop attacking and start backing stuff up like Steve Harvey, I would greatly appreciated it.
Thanks in advance.
If you don't read the thread before doing so, I am just going to ignore your comments.
Because, clearly anyone who is defending MDK against my "dirt dredging charges" either doesn't want to read or can't read. Either of which is not my problem.
So, I will say it one last time. I am a MDK atheist. I don't belive anything about it either way. If you guys can stop attacking and start backing stuff up like Steve Harvey, I would greatly appreciated it.
Thanks in advance.
- Joined
- Oct 3, 2001
- Messages
- 1,191
I put an order in for a Bear Cat after handling a MDK at a knife show. I too had trouble finding info on Mad Dog's, I scanned the numerous threads on BFC with 20+ replies saying, "Oh, asking for trouble/ Knife X is better because..../etc.", with no other info from owners, because they had probably gotten tired of saying what a knife it really is. It really is a good solid knife, and to me, they're just as good as Randall's, Busse's, and Strider's. Four different makers with different approaches and different styles, but all extremely good knives.
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2002
- Messages
- 42
No hostility here, and I'm happy with my "shortcoming"
If you can read back over your post and claim that those are honest questions, then you may be the one in need of help. An example of an honest, flame-retardant question would be to ask for Mad Dog owners' opinions on how well the hard chrome protects the blade.
I doubt that anyone would've taken issue with a thoughtfully asked question.
Mark
If you can read back over your post and claim that those are honest questions, then you may be the one in need of help. An example of an honest, flame-retardant question would be to ask for Mad Dog owners' opinions on how well the hard chrome protects the blade.
I doubt that anyone would've taken issue with a thoughtfully asked question.
Mark
I have owned a few of Kevin's knives in about the last 5 years and after spending time with them using them for everyday tasks, Ican conclude that they are great knives. My current favorite is the Pack Rat, which is a small boot-type knife with a 4.5" blade in 3/16th's stock. As recommended by others, including Kevin himself, I carry it in the slip-type sheath and it is truly a handy knife to have around. It is flat, unobtrusive, and the edge will stay sharpfor a long time. Most of it's duties are cutting paper and card board, and I use it for these activities daily for about the last 5 months. I did run into two problems: I train in iaido and like to work on my own swords. I purchased some same (rayskin) to wrap a new sword handle and attempted to use the Pack rat to cut the same. I was shock when the same chipped the edge. At first I was a little bewildered. I thought "damn! I thought same was a pretty soft material." So, I took out my Lum Chinese folder and low and behold, the Lum got chipped too. It turns out Same is actually very hard and very abrasive. I sent the Pack Rat to Kevin and it was back in my hands in 2 days! Talk about customer service. Considering Kevin's work schedule, I was truly amazed to have it back so quickly. Kevin will sharpen his knives for free, just have to pay for reurn shipping. My other problem was that, while training with the blade, I fumbled with the knife during a grip change and it fell point first into the concrete. This put a small dent in the very pointy tip. Again, Kevin fixed it for free. After these two experiences, I think Mad Dog's warranty is pretty great and I appreciate it a lot. I also have an ATAK that I used to carry on my daily hikes, but that has been replaced with a Bear Cat. The only "hard use" I put the ATAK to was it helped to split some wood after one of our trees fell during a storm a few years back. A few other thing I have to say which have already been mentioned above: The ergonomics of the handles on all of Kevin's knives is excellent. They are comfortable in every grip and easy on the hand during push cuts. I also can understand why some may say that they are "overpriced for the materials you get," but I have to disagree. O1 steel is used by many custom/handmade knife makers, some who forge and some that do stock removal. The handle material, which is some proprietary synthetic is equal and may be better that micarta, g-10, or other synthetics, which are also widely used by makers. I think once it is thoughly understood that each one of Kevin's knives is handmade, then things may be more clear.
One lasy thing. I honestly feel that once you decided to purchase and receive a Mad Dog, and actually use it for your cutting tasks, you will really like it.
One lasy thing. I honestly feel that once you decided to purchase and receive a Mad Dog, and actually use it for your cutting tasks, you will really like it.
Originally posted by naturalslave
No hostility here, and I'm happy with my "shortcoming"
If you can read back over your post and claim that those are honest questions, then you may be the one in need of help. An example of an honest, flame-retardant question would be to ask for Mad Dog owners' opinions on how well the hard chrome protects the blade.
I doubt that anyone would've taken issue with a thoughtfully asked question.
Mark
Naturalslave,
And if you read my post from the beginning you will find that it starts with:
"The questions that were raised, and opinions made are about 4 topics:"
This line means that after sifting through many threads on many a forum I found the following topics were the point of contention.
If you find that to mean that I PERSONALLY have misgivings about Mad dog knives, then I say again, you are MISTAKEN and I cannot help you.
Thanks DrSpine for recanting your experience. BTW, I recently handled an older ATAK. Real comfy handle.
- Joined
- Nov 10, 2002
- Messages
- 590
Just read this thread from start to finish -
And it evolved (devolved?) just like all the threads seem to do whenever this maker is mentioned.
And therein lies the question
Why?
Iff'in you want a MD product, purchase it
If you don't, don't
He, like many others, is capable of and does produce a well considered edged product.
Hero or cult worship when it comes to knives is all too often a vexing proposition of all involved.
There be good knives, and okay knives, and lousy knives. Let the Buyer be educated in what he truly needs, wants, can afford, and can get when he needs it.
Pretty simple.
GW
KU
And it evolved (devolved?) just like all the threads seem to do whenever this maker is mentioned.
And therein lies the question
Why?
Iff'in you want a MD product, purchase it
If you don't, don't
He, like many others, is capable of and does produce a well considered edged product.
Hero or cult worship when it comes to knives is all too often a vexing proposition of all involved.
There be good knives, and okay knives, and lousy knives. Let the Buyer be educated in what he truly needs, wants, can afford, and can get when he needs it.
Pretty simple.
GW
KU
- Joined
- Nov 16, 2002
- Messages
- 9,948
There would still be a problem even if all of your questions were answered in a non-defensive manner. Let's say that you've been provided with tons of objective, anecdotal evidence with which to make your purchase. Furthermore, let's say that everyone who has answered you about the pros and cons of Mad Dog Knives are absolutely in love with their purchases and the customer service they've received during and after the sale. That's still no guarantee that you'll like the one you buy. Even if you go to the shop and are allowed to handle a copy of what you want and maybe even cut, stab, and slice through a variety of media, you may still dislike the knife once it's in your hands and the check has been cashed. Then again, you may love that knife so much that you keep sending duplicate payments because you feel they've unfairly undercharged you.
There are several ways you can get an idea about what you'll like, but there's only one way you can be certain.
There are several ways you can get an idea about what you'll like, but there's only one way you can be certain.
You're kidding right? Every product is right for certain folks for certain things. It doesn't fit all people.
I would rather hear what the praises and hangups are before seeing for myself. Judging by the little piece of reality you just laid out, wouldn't you?
I don't think I will make the double payments. If I like it that much, the money would go towards the second one, not repurchasing the first one.
If you buy a car, there are always pros and cons. Do you really listen to salesman who says, don't worry about anything, this car is for you, 'cause I say so. Buy it, you'll love it. Trust me. Really.
You'll want to hear about the fuel efficiency relative to the great power, the increased insurance if it is a turbo model, etc.
You get the point.
I just wanted to get some info. Steve Harvey understood what that was and was good enough to provide some. The rest of the unrest, is extraneous and tiring.
Greg W,
Good point, but with prices at this level coupled with the wait time (I am not buying aftermarket at a premium w/o warranty) I prefer to do some research and ask some questions. The i'll buy and see for myself may be the only way to get some answers, but it shouldn't be this way. These guys are running around with some emotional scars left over from the last tussle.
What kind of sales pitch is - quiet! you know nothing, we don't need you, buy it if you like, don't buy it if you don't it. I don't know, that approach doesn't encourage me to buy. Again, I don't know about the politics. However, consider this is what will continue to happen when newbies research MDK and finds that stuff. Those interested will be disincentivized by the info the find. The MDK defenders will jump down their throats, thus making it worse.
So, to all the offended MDK owners who FEEL bad because I brought up the points, I apologize for making you feel uncomfortable, and most of all, I am sorry for providing such an easy target for your misguided anger.
- Joined
- Feb 25, 2001
- Messages
- 6,675
I've never really looked hard at Mad dog knives. They seem pretty nifty. If I could afford one, I'd give it a try.
One question though. Is the blade thickness, behind the edge, thick like a Busse? If so, I'd have to remove the chrome plaiting to thin out the primary bevel. That doesn't sound like fun.
One question though. Is the blade thickness, behind the edge, thick like a Busse? If so, I'd have to remove the chrome plaiting to thin out the primary bevel. That doesn't sound like fun.
- Joined
- Oct 16, 1998
- Messages
- 2,395
I don't know how thick Busse leaves his edges, and I have not measured the edge thickness on my Mad Dogs, so I can't give you a quantitative answer. But on my Arizona Hunter, which has an edge very similar to most of the Mad Dogs I have handled, all I have done is resharpen to a 30-35 degree included angle, and the knife cuts very well. So I would say the edge thickness is well suited to a hard use hunting and field knife.
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- Nov 16, 2002
- Messages
- 9,948
We're not in disagreement there.
It'd be nice to know, but, unless you're that person or have similar likes, needs, or hand/body structure, it's just that: nice to know. Many of the surprize finds, useful information, and great bargains mentioned on the forum were popularized by people who share the sentiment you're expressing, but went off and did their own thing on their own, anyways. Whose opinion here will qualify for your test drive of a Mad Dog Knife? Have you worked out a means to try before you buy with that shop? If so, then your car analogy is appropriate.
I don't think I will make the double payments. If I like it that much, the money would go towards the second one, not repurchasing the first one.
Then you don't like it so much that introducing another one would feel like a crime of infidelity. In which case, it's just another knife and who'd want to spend that sort of scratch on just another just another knife.
As you are doing with the Mad Dog Knives, I, too, would ask other owners about their experiences, but what would be more important would be seeing it in person, popping the hood, kicking the tires, and taking it for a test drive. Maybe there'd be buyer's remorse even after all that, but, in that case, it would be my opinion that mattered more than any other factor
You're asking people on a public forum for their advice and experience and dismissing any and everyone who is upset with what they think your tone is (it is, after all, plain text, which can allow the most sincere statement to perceived as grating sarcasm) as overprotective MDK owners or people with poor reading skills. You've gotten good advice from Mr. Harvey and can wade through a www.google.com search for whatever tidbits you've missed. If the next step isn't getting on the waiting list and dropping that cash, what is?
Maybe one of you thicker-skinned MDK owners could lend out your Panther to Sundsvall for a month or two of evaluation.