Where would you make your stand?

My plan is do do absolutely nothing and then wait for the government to swiftly and competently resuce me and make all my boo-boos go away.
 
If it gets really bad, I'll just take the wife and kid to my Dad's farm in West Virginia. He's fully set up, our whole family could live there for a good long time, quite comfortably. He has a nice big garden, plenty of game to shoot and fish to catch. Even if the power goes out, we're set. 300+ acres and enough arms and ammunition to last us all several lifetimes. Dad is a bit of a survival nut- if the balloon goes up, he's ready for business. I think he's been praying for the lights to go out for the last 40 years or so.

If everything went to hell- our whole family would be up there, my brothers and my sister and their families, and we'd organize. We'd set up a patrol schedule to make sure folks keep away, and my brother breeds Great Danes, so we'd have plenty of big dogs to watch out for us. We'd need a few horses, but we're good friends with a neighbor who raises cattle and sheep.
 
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I've been reading up on this more- not that I ever stopped before, but times change and new stuff gets thought about and written.

Regarding the military- I did recently have this discussion with some houseguests. A dependent wife and 2 kids stayed for a few days on the way up to their new station in Oak Harbor (Whidbey) while the husband is coming back from a C school. While there's certainly no reason not to have a decent food stash and some bugout gear, my family and personal experience with the Navy and Marines (Army could be different) suggests that you are generally going to be pretty well set. If you live in off base housing it might be a good idea to have a plan with the local wives' group for bunking in on base if things start going south. But remember that even the zeros and the SPs have families, too- the idea that the families will be left to starve or be completely without support while every active duty person goes off to deal with whatever crisis is pretty far fetched.

***
How much ammo is enough? I know I don't have enough right now- my target level as I can afford it is a total of 400 rounds of .32ACP (one pistol), 800 rounds of .308 (unless I trade the match bull barrel rifle out, which I'd like to do at this point- a .357 lever gun would be great), 500 rounds of bird and 300 rounds of buckshot (one shotgun), and 6000 rounds of .22LR (5 assorted firearms).

The numbers at first seem high, but IF I manage the trade out, I'll be setting up for reloading .357 (or .44, or .32mag, depending on what I end up with) and .32ACP - .22LR is not worth trying to reload though I hear it is possible. And I won't be reloading shotgun unless we pick up a lot of spare cash.

The set point is enough .32 to keep in practice and have 3 full mags plus a couple boxes even if I can't find the ammo for several months. Enough shotgun shells for a couple years of hunting and some practice and training time, plus a bit of barter stock. Enough long gun ammo for 3 or 4 years of hunting and practice.

I'm considering upping the .22- first we have more guns of this caliber than any other. Second it's flat out the most useful for non-combat purposes anywhere we are likely to live. It's also great for training household members up on guns, and if it becomes a barter item, I'd rather have plenty. It's cheap to pick up in reasonable amounts. And it's EASY to blow through 200 rounds on the range. (The range thing becomes less of an issue if advertising ownership of firearms becomes a Bad Thing To Do) -- So maybe 10000 would be a better number. That means cycling through a couple thousand rounds a year, but that's not hard to do :D


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We tend to avoid commercially canned foodstocks for the most part. There are health issues involved but I've found that long term storage of dried base foods seems to be better overall. Where we live there aren't any multimonth snowpack issues, and some form of fresh vegetable is always to be had, even foraging.

Last night I made a rice dish using garlic, chard, kale, and onion all out of the garden. 2.5 cups (dry)rice, 3 heads garlic, 2 onions, a bucket of kale and chard all diced up. With olive oil and seasonings in the big rice cooker, it was most tasty.

this week we'll be home canning some chicken and turkey chili- we still have 3 frozen turkeys from the $5 turkey sale in late december, and the organic chickens are going on sale again next week at $1.29/pound before discount - $1.07/LB after discount. So we'll be boning out for chili and making dog food supplement with the rest, except for 3 or 4 that we'll keep whole in the freezer for roasting.

There are a few cans of meat (spam and potted meat) around, and some other stuff, but not much. The way we cycle through those is to donate them out to a shelter once a year and buy fresh stock- not a ton of it, though. about 3 dozen cans all up. (9 people in the household)

What worries us most, and something that's been brought up by Dmitri Orlov several times, is home ownership. We rent, and don't have any serious prospects of grabbing a piece fo land for another couple years. There is a family (wife's family) plot of 20 unimproved acres out in Montana, but we're worried about the housing thing more than anything else right now. I've seen several landlords prefer, when it comes down to economic downturns, to have 60 or even 75% vacancy rates than deal with people.
 
I think having a plan with a small group of others that you know and trust is almost a neccessity.

I really don't want to step on any toes but the "I'm going to dissappear into the woods" idea that alot of people hold is not a good one and you will more than likely just be dooming yourself and those you love by doing it. You will turn yourself and your family(wife/husband and kids) into an easy target to all that WILL be roaming through the woods in search of food or booty. You would have to have eyes in the back of your head and then I still don't think you would make it long.

Think about it. Your inside eating, sleeping, or whatnot by yourself or with your family when someone or some group wandering through the woods sees your cabin/house/tent/BOL. They all hide 20-70 yards away from your door and shoot you with a gun as soon a you unknowingly step out your door. Now your family has to fight a fight while watching you die. That would be a lot of stress for most anyone which would cause tham to make bad decisions during the said battle. So after your loved ones have used up all of the ammo or resources that you may have had it's all over and your family will wish they had been killed when the dirtbags walk in and have their way with them. More than likely you and your family would not be the first that this group had encountered. That means they've probably had some practice at doing this. More than likely this will be the first group of dirtbags that has come along and ambushed you. This means you and your family have not had any practice. You with all of your cool guns and ammo but no practice/training is not going to matter much when dealing with a group of individuals who have more than likely had some practice/training from dealing with their previous victims.

Personally I don't want to be responsible for my family being raped/killed out in the middle of nowhere where they can sceam all they want but nobody's is going to hear them.


I think a small neighborhood in a rural area where others that you know and trust and can work with will be a must for survival. A team of 15-30 or so people will be needed. This will create an atmosphere where your and your family's back is being watched and your watching other people's backs.
 
Silas said:
I think having a plan with a small group of others that you know and trust is almost a neccessity.

I really don't want to step on any toes but the "I'm going to disappear into the woods" idea that alot of people hold is not a good one and you will more than likely just be dooming yourself and those you love by doing it. You will turn yourself and your family(wife/husband and kids) into an easy target to all that WILL be roaming through the woods in search of food or booty. You would have to have eyes in the back of your head and then I still don't think you would make it long.

Think about it. Your inside eating, sleeping, or whatnot by yourself or with your family when someone or some group wandering through the woods sees your cabin/house/tent/BOL. They all hide 20-70 yards away from your door and shoot you with a gun as soon a you unknowingly step out your door. Now your family has to fight a fight while watching you die. That would be a lot of stress for most anyone which would cause tham to make bad decisions during the said battle. So after your loved ones have used up all of the ammo or resources that you may have had it's all over and your family will wish they had been killed when the dirtbags walk in and have their way with them. More than likely you and your family would not be the first that this group had encountered. That means they've probably had some practice at doing this. More than likely this will be the first group of dirtbags that has come along and ambushed you. This means you and your family have not had any practice. You with all of your cool guns and ammo but no practice/training is not going to matter much when dealing with a group of individuals who have more than likely had some practice/training from dealing with their previous victims.

Personally I don't want to be responsible for my family being raped/killed out in the middle of nowhere where they can sceam all they want but nobody's is going to hear them.


I think a small neighborhood in a rural area where others that you know and trust and can work with will be a must for survival. A team of 15-30 or so people will be needed. This will create an atmosphere where your and your family's back is being watched and your watching other people's backs.
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Well, I'm assuming you are flat out in "End of the World" mode. I think we're looking at more economic depression stuff here, with the social issues that arise with it. While a starving man will readily steal food, and a starving man with kids will go armed and ready to kill to get it in some cases, you are painting a pretty... unrealistic picture. If it had been that bad in the last Depression, we'd only have made it out with half the population we did......

I'm not advocating the bunker mentality, either- running off into the wilderness isn't a solution for everybody. That being said there ARE plenty of people I've known- single for the most part- who have gone bush for months to years at a time. As far asI can tell from them, and from my own hiking experiences, the wilds aren't actually filled with bad guys trying to hunt people down.

And, even if it is TEOTWAWKI, living in the bush isn't a picnic and just having a gun isn't going to make a successful land pirate or reaver. I'm not going to succumb to a Stirling world view quite yet......


Now, usually when I make a comment like this I get a binary response, where I am accused of saying that there should be no defense, yadda yadda. Obviously this isn't the case, but there's a functional security aspect and then there's paranoia. I'm honestly MUCH MUCH more comfortable with the household being in a fairly isolated farm then subjecting myself to the whims of a neighborhood association on steroids.

I'm plenty friendly with my neighbors and helping out isn't a problem, but this collective tyranny thing doesn't work for me. And it seems to go that route, almost without fail. Jefferson's angelic side of human nature requires things that you generally won't find in a sustenance and survivalist 'community'

We generally, in the US lack the social training to make a kibbutz work- even the smaller Mormon communities tend to have a VERY rigid and ... tyrannical is the only word that fits... power structure.

Fortunately, I'm a strong believer in our technological ability to surpass the scarcity based economic principles that spiral this stuff out of control. I do think it is possible to create smaller abundance economies, and it just may be that things will get bad enough governmentally for those to get a boost up. (Currently they are legally stopped left and right, from silly things like $300 co-op investment maximums to an inability to negotiate small group health coverage in a reasonable fashion)
 
koyote said:
Well, I'm assuming you are flat out in "End of the World" mode. I think we're looking at more economic depression stuff here, with the social issues that arise with it. While a starving man will readily steal food, and a starving man with kids will go armed and ready to kill to get it in some cases, you are painting a pretty... unrealistic picture. If it had been that bad in the last Depression, we'd only have made it out with half the population we did......

I'm not advocating the bunker mentality, either- running off into the wilderness isn't a solution for everybody. That being said there ARE plenty of people I've known- single for the most part- who have gone bush for months to years at a time. As far asI can tell from them, and from my own hiking experiences, the wilds aren't actually filled with bad guys trying to hunt people down.

And, even if it is TEOTWAWKI, living in the bush isn't a picnic and just having a gun isn't going to make a successful land pirate or reaver. I'm not going to succumb to a Stirling world view quite yet......


Now, usually when I make a comment like this I get a binary response, where I am accused of saying that there should be no defense, yadda yadda. Obviously this isn't the case, but there's a functional security aspect and then there's paranoia. I'm honestly MUCH MUCH more comfortable with the household being in a fairly isolated farm then subjecting myself to the whims of a neighborhood association on steroids.

I'm plenty friendly with my neighbors and helping out isn't a problem, but this collective tyranny thing doesn't work for me. And it seems to go that route, almost without fail. Jefferson's angelic side of human nature requires things that you generally won't find in a sustenance and survivalist 'community'

We generally, in the US lack the social training to make a kibbutz work- even the smaller Mormon communities tend to have a VERY rigid and ... tyrannical is the only word that fits... power structure.

Fortunately, I'm a strong believer in our technological ability to surpass the scarcity based economic principles that spiral this stuff out of control. I do think it is possible to create smaller abundance economies, and it just may be that things will get bad enough governmentally for those to get a boost up. (Currently they are legally stopped left and right, from silly things like $300 co-op investment maximums to an inability to negotiate small group health coverage in a reasonable fashion)
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Yeah I was going with a TEOTWAWKI story-line. :D

I'm not saying that thats where we're headed yet anything is possible. I do however think it's a bigger possibilty for something like EOTW being sparked in today's society than with the people who lived decades ago. I do not have much faith in today's society at all. People living during the depression had morals. People living up through possibly the 1960's had some morals. I think the majority of the breed of people living today are nowhere near the breed of people living then. The people back then would not have went crazy and rioted if the power went out for a week. I don't think we would last three days if the power went out on a widespread area in todays society. There would be roits, looting, and murders. Imagine if the Wel-Fare checks stopped flowing. What that would cause. If the millions of people on anti-depressants couldn't get their meds.


I know I come across as a "Doom and Gloomer" but I'm not. I think anything is possible. I also try to read the signs on the wall. In the end though, what happens happens. Don't waste a day worrying about it.
 
Unemployment was 9% in 1975 and 10.8% in 1982. There was no civil unrest on account of the hard times. It was 19% in 1938 (FDR cured what?) and no civil unrest.

May I remind you of TEOTWAWKI scenarios regarding the nonevent of YTK?

On the other hand, Spring Break has started, and THAT is civil unrest.
 
I'm curious as to why you think a recession/depression might lead to a failure of food deliveries and extended power cuts?
It doesn't seem to me that there is any historic basis for this supposition.

I think it would take something like a breakdown in the supply and distribution of oil to trigger widespread food shortages in the cities. Or widespread crop failure.
 
A.W.U.K. said:
I'm curious as to why you think a recession/depression might lead to a failure of food deliveries and extended power cuts?
It doesn't seem to me that there is any historic basis for this supposition.

I think it would take something like a breakdown in the supply and distribution of oil to trigger widespread food shortages in the cities. Or widespread crop failure.
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There is actually historic basis. Both here and in Russia. The primary mitigating factor is that people tend to overlook the resilience of the whole system.

Of course, while a systemic resilience may increase the survival of the civilization, if you are one of the ones left in the cold, it sure does suck. Hence all the preparation.
 
Thomas Linton said:
Unemployment was 9% in 1975 and 10.8% in 1982. There was no civil unrest on account of the hard times. It was 19% in 1938 (FDR cured what?) and no civil unrest.
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I have to agree with Silas on this point: it was a different time and people were different.

Doc
 
Indeed, old folk were more honorable in general, more capable also in many other areas. The modern society is ME ME ME, I I I first and less prepared to deal with what couple of generations ago was common knowledge (basic agricultural, mechanical, and basic survival). Knowing that a local WalMart or similar is stocked with food and you have none can make you head a little crazy.
 
koyote said:
There is actually historic basis. Both here and in Russia. The primary mitigating factor is that people tend to overlook the resilience of the whole system.
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Details, please. Widespead colapse of foor and energy distribution in the U.S. due to "Hard Times"? Where? When? Not saying people didn't go hungry due to no $$, just question that the modern "system" broke down due to unemployment.
 
First, you are changing things- hard times and unemployment are not equal values. unemployment is, however, often a factor in hard times.

Fortunately, you have a way out of anything I say, because now there's that wonderful little scalable word "widespread" that can be redefined endlessly.

For example, I'm willing to bet the Katrina aftermath would not count as widespread at this point in the conversation. Whether or not hard times had anything to do with it becoming a disaster is arguable, certainly.

The first Depression resulted in major programs to enrich food and make provisions to stave off famine and starvation- out of NECESSITY. MEaning, because it was happening. You'll also find that this era saw the rise of most of the electric utility cooperatives as the corporate "free market" utility companies hadn't the money nor desire to maintain and deploy service in some areas.

I'm not even going to respond about Russia, the information available is astounding. give yourself 5 hours of link following without cherry picking Coulter/Rush agitprop and you might be amazed at how far things did go down in some segments and time periods during the 90s.

One of the things noted by several sources about the soviet slide in many Bloc contries (including Russia proper) was that the system had been unreliable enough overall that people tended to have gardens and food sources outside of 'official' (here you'd say "grocery store" channels. There's an assumption that because the results weren't as horrible as they could have been, that there wasn't a breakdown in any regional or large scale case. (There's also an assumption that because no one teaches it in high school history, there wasn't REAL starvation, epidemic, and famine in the first Depression.)
 
There is a lot of info lately, based on the recent bankruptcies and the current state of the markets (stock, futures, the US Dollar). GM Talknig about chapter 11 etc, mayor banks in crisis, we are currently on a very expensive war and talking about Iran...

Check this out
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9nJ7LM3iyNg&feature=related

As far as I'm informed this guy frequently appears on the news and it is well respected. He is no t the only one but this one sums up pretty well what we are talking about.
 
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