Who buys all the serrated edges?
- Thread starter FullerH
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Bartman, very well said. I've said my piece also and will now let the matter rest.
Thank you all for the enlightening conversation.
Mick
Thank you all for the enlightening conversation.
Mick
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For the sake of curiosity I reviewed last month's sales to calculate the ratio between plain and serrated edges. If we look at all types of knives-kitchen,combat, traditional pocket knives etc, the ratio was 65% plain and 35% serrated or combo edges. I removed some large orders that would have skewed the results even further in favor of plain edges.
If we look only at knives that offer a choice between plain and serrated or combo in the same model (mostly combat or tactical knives) the figure is fairly close to even steven-52% plain vs. 48% combo or serrated.
In dollars, the big sellers among plain edge "tactical" knives were a near tie between the EDI Genesis 120 (black plain edge) and the Benchmade 710 Axis lock (satin plain edge.) The clear winner in the serrated category on our site last month was the Benchmade 910SBT Elishewitz Stryker (black partially serrated.)
Our site is self service so these orders were placed with no involvement on our part. Since it involves on-line ordering, our customers are all internet users for whatever that demographic brings to the table. I don't know if this is a revelation to anyone but I found it interesting and worth doing for my own planning. Take care.
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Fred
Knife Outlet
www.knifeoutlet.com
If we look only at knives that offer a choice between plain and serrated or combo in the same model (mostly combat or tactical knives) the figure is fairly close to even steven-52% plain vs. 48% combo or serrated.
In dollars, the big sellers among plain edge "tactical" knives were a near tie between the EDI Genesis 120 (black plain edge) and the Benchmade 710 Axis lock (satin plain edge.) The clear winner in the serrated category on our site last month was the Benchmade 910SBT Elishewitz Stryker (black partially serrated.)
Our site is self service so these orders were placed with no involvement on our part. Since it involves on-line ordering, our customers are all internet users for whatever that demographic brings to the table. I don't know if this is a revelation to anyone but I found it interesting and worth doing for my own planning. Take care.
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Fred
Knife Outlet
www.knifeoutlet.com
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- Oct 3, 1998
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- 883
Isn't there a scripture in the Bible that says, "Spare the rod, spoil the dead horse"? I say we keep beating it. I love this topic.
In a semi-perverse attempt to keep this debate alive, I'd like to know what the martial bladecraft (knife fighting) experts have to say about the relative merits of plain vs. serrated edges. Perhaps I'll start a new thread for this.
Then again, maybe I won't.
David Rock
In a semi-perverse attempt to keep this debate alive, I'd like to know what the martial bladecraft (knife fighting) experts have to say about the relative merits of plain vs. serrated edges. Perhaps I'll start a new thread for this.
Then again, maybe I won't.
David Rock
I don't think this horse is dead yet!
From the more traditional martial arts perspective, you see few serrated knives. Any of you more experienced in FMA or Arnis or other martial arts which incorporate knives step right in here to illuminate this issue - please. This may be because the technology to make serrations was not available. Or perhaps serrations were not viewed as an improvement in functionality.
If you look at Kris Cutlery, for example, they have some really wicked looking weapons - love my Kerambit. However, all these wicked weapons have plain edges. Look at the Himalayan Imports Kukris. Anybody ever seen a serrated Kukri - might look pretty wicked, but would it help or ruin the functionality of this wicked weapon/tool. I'm sure Mike will be showing us a serrated Kukri before long, so we'll all get to see what one looks like.
Also, I'm not a knife fighter (or a wanabee for that matter), but how many really good custom fighting knives have you seen with serrations. Sure, you see a lot of newer production stuff with partial serrations. This is aimed at all the Rambos in the buying community. I see these serrations as fuctional for purposes other than knife combat.
So, don't bury this horse yet - let's hear from some of the real experts out there. This amateur is interested.
From the more traditional martial arts perspective, you see few serrated knives. Any of you more experienced in FMA or Arnis or other martial arts which incorporate knives step right in here to illuminate this issue - please. This may be because the technology to make serrations was not available. Or perhaps serrations were not viewed as an improvement in functionality.
If you look at Kris Cutlery, for example, they have some really wicked looking weapons - love my Kerambit. However, all these wicked weapons have plain edges. Look at the Himalayan Imports Kukris. Anybody ever seen a serrated Kukri - might look pretty wicked, but would it help or ruin the functionality of this wicked weapon/tool. I'm sure Mike will be showing us a serrated Kukri before long, so we'll all get to see what one looks like.
Also, I'm not a knife fighter (or a wanabee for that matter), but how many really good custom fighting knives have you seen with serrations. Sure, you see a lot of newer production stuff with partial serrations. This is aimed at all the Rambos in the buying community. I see these serrations as fuctional for purposes other than knife combat.
So, don't bury this horse yet - let's hear from some of the real experts out there. This amateur is interested.
I think serrations on a kukri would be just about useless, as it is not generally used in a draw, or slashing cut, but rather in a hacking fashion. Where serrations enhance the performance of a combat blade (in my more-or-less uneducated opinion) is in cases where the knife has little belly for slashing (e.g. most tantos). Serrations help to penetrate clothing better, and also *may* (depending on whom you ask) create a more devastating wound channel, in addition to just plain looking wicked. One downside of serrations is that they weaken the blade laterally, making it more likely to snap in an indirect blow, parrying situation, or gouge, where the knife is inserted, then twisted prior to withdrawal. I would be leery of serrations on a dagger (such as the WWII style combat daggers) for this reason, given their already thin blades and reputation for snapping. Plus, they're no good for slashing anyway.
I've carried at least one knife daily (now a days more like 4 or 5) for the past 43 years. I own somewhere in the neighborhood of 500. Probably close to 10% are Spydercos both serrated and plain. Probably close to another 10% are other brands of serrated and combo edges. I've said before and I'l l say it again: Spyderco serrations work! They will out cut a similar plain edge they stay sharp longer and with the Spyderco Sharpmaker any moron who can keep a blade vertical can put an edge on a serrated blade. Not able to cut cardboard? Please! I could hold a Spyderco between my toes and shred a refrigerator box in minutes. As far as not being able to cut rope, someone told me at a show several years ago (I think it might have been Sal Glesser) that the Coast Guard was buying the 6 1/2 inch Spyderco kitchen utility knife for cutting 6 inch mooring lines! But I guess those guys don't know anthing about cutting rope! For cutting through heavy duty hose like washing machine or radiator hose you can't be a Spyderco. See for yourself. Get an old piece of radiator hose, a razor knife with a new blade, and a Spyderco Rescue or Mariner and see what works. To anyone who says you can't cut rope or cardboard with a serrated edge I have two questions. 1. Are you using a Spyderco or a knife with Spyderco type serrations? 2. If you are do you the blade turned so the serrated edge comes in contact with the material you are trying ot cut? It works a lot better that way. You can't open mail well or whittle with them but for most other things they work extremely well.
phantom4
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who dares, wins
phantom4
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who dares, wins
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Phantom4, thank you, thank you ,thank you......and thank you again.
Thx, Mick
Thx, Mick
Yeah! What he said!
Bernie
(serration lover)
Bernie
(serration lover)
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The thread that never dies!
I don't think anyone said you can't cut cardboard with a serrated edge. Anything you can do with one type, you can pretty much do with the other, it'll just be less efficient. I've also found a serrated edge won't touch a properly-tuned plain edge on cardboard. And, if you care about accuracy, the serrated edge is generally messier.
The serrated edge has exactly one cutting advantage over plain edge -- that of slicing hard materials or materials under tension. Its other advantage is that due to the format alone, it cuts longer. Its disadvantages again are that it stinks at push cutting, it tends to unravel softer objects instead of cutting them, and that it can leave ragged messy cuts. To say it succinctly, phantom's claim that a serrated edge will unilaterally outcut a plain edge is simply wrong, period. It does better in some things, worse in others.
When it comes to rope, a serrated edge will slice a hard rope faster than a plain edge. But the fact is the fastest way to cut rope is to push-cut it, not to slice it. Plain edges are king here, and I can push-cut through some reasonably thick rope faster than I can slice through it. Some guys cut thicker rope by laying the plain edge on the rope and smacking the back -- they use plain edge knives, which work better as this remains a push cut. Those times you do have to slice and don't care about the accuracy of the cut, the serrated edge works better, but not nearly as much better as you're saying than a properly-tuned plain edge.
Find yourself doing food prep with your knife? The plain edge works better for the vast majority of purposes.
All push-cutting you do will be done more efficiently with the plain edge. So will chopping, whether it's wood or vegetables.
Slicing material of any kind? The serrations will grab it and snag it, and pull it around. The plain edge will cut it neatly and accurately.
And to bring up phantom's example of sailors buying serrated blades, I've talked to a few who have assured me that serrated edges have absolutely not completely taken over the docks. They've told me of sailors trying serrated blades and then getting rid of them to go back to thin-blade, ultra-coarse ground plain edges. When it gets dull, it takes 10 seconds on a bastard file (not fumbling around with ceramic sticks with cold hands) to bring 'em up to speed. Remember, one example does not a proof make. You'll find sailors who swear by either format -- and this is ostensibly a slicing job, the one thing serrations should excel at.
Anyway, again, if your most important uses are slicing hard pipe and slicing hard rope, you've made a fine choice, especially if you're willing to give up some push cutting, zipper cutting, and soft-material slicing. But rest assured, you *are* giving up some performance.
Joe
jat@cup.hp.com
I don't think anyone said you can't cut cardboard with a serrated edge. Anything you can do with one type, you can pretty much do with the other, it'll just be less efficient. I've also found a serrated edge won't touch a properly-tuned plain edge on cardboard. And, if you care about accuracy, the serrated edge is generally messier.
The serrated edge has exactly one cutting advantage over plain edge -- that of slicing hard materials or materials under tension. Its other advantage is that due to the format alone, it cuts longer. Its disadvantages again are that it stinks at push cutting, it tends to unravel softer objects instead of cutting them, and that it can leave ragged messy cuts. To say it succinctly, phantom's claim that a serrated edge will unilaterally outcut a plain edge is simply wrong, period. It does better in some things, worse in others.
When it comes to rope, a serrated edge will slice a hard rope faster than a plain edge. But the fact is the fastest way to cut rope is to push-cut it, not to slice it. Plain edges are king here, and I can push-cut through some reasonably thick rope faster than I can slice through it. Some guys cut thicker rope by laying the plain edge on the rope and smacking the back -- they use plain edge knives, which work better as this remains a push cut. Those times you do have to slice and don't care about the accuracy of the cut, the serrated edge works better, but not nearly as much better as you're saying than a properly-tuned plain edge.
Find yourself doing food prep with your knife? The plain edge works better for the vast majority of purposes.
All push-cutting you do will be done more efficiently with the plain edge. So will chopping, whether it's wood or vegetables.
Slicing material of any kind? The serrations will grab it and snag it, and pull it around. The plain edge will cut it neatly and accurately.
And to bring up phantom's example of sailors buying serrated blades, I've talked to a few who have assured me that serrated edges have absolutely not completely taken over the docks. They've told me of sailors trying serrated blades and then getting rid of them to go back to thin-blade, ultra-coarse ground plain edges. When it gets dull, it takes 10 seconds on a bastard file (not fumbling around with ceramic sticks with cold hands) to bring 'em up to speed. Remember, one example does not a proof make. You'll find sailors who swear by either format -- and this is ostensibly a slicing job, the one thing serrations should excel at.
Anyway, again, if your most important uses are slicing hard pipe and slicing hard rope, you've made a fine choice, especially if you're willing to give up some push cutting, zipper cutting, and soft-material slicing. But rest assured, you *are* giving up some performance.
Joe
jat@cup.hp.com
Hi All,
My two cents worth now.... As far as I'm concerned serrated blades have been one of the greatest things to happen since the 17" T.V. picture tube became available. Some of you might remember those little 10" round ones. Anyway, I've found those little teeth just right for making sets on the trapline. They bite into frozen wood much better than a plain edge, course ground or otherwise.
Happy Trails, Dan
My two cents worth now.... As far as I'm concerned serrated blades have been one of the greatest things to happen since the 17" T.V. picture tube became available. Some of you might remember those little 10" round ones. Anyway, I've found those little teeth just right for making sets on the trapline. They bite into frozen wood much better than a plain edge, course ground or otherwise.
Happy Trails, Dan
Now stooop it...You guys keep luring me back to this. OK JOE, I'll meet you outside
(not really)...Kidding as usual!! Heres my rebuttle Joe. I will take a say 3" 70/30 combo edge knife, and you take an exact copy with plain edge and set up a smorgasboard of cutting,slicing,pushing,chopping,whittleing,scraping,rope cuts, paper cuts,food prep,delicate accu cuts,shaving,stabing,serrateing,hose cutting,sandwich making,scoreing,wire skinning, steel reinforced rubber hose cutting,brass shaving,ect ect. It don't matter! I will do everyone of them as well or better,period. You seem to forget, I have 70% plain edge, and know how to use all the advantages of both edges! And as I have sharpen mine, with a courser edge in front of the serrations,and a bit more polished edge at the front. Man, I seem to be doing everything as good and mostly better!! Now back to what I have said over and over,I HAVE ALL THE ADVANTAGES OF A PLAIN BLADE, THE SERRATIONS DONOT GET IN THE WAY..AT ALL, This is not my opinion it IS working for me. I control the knife it does not control me. I have had it about a week and used it a 110 times. I can choke up on the knife and use the sweet spot in front of the teeth just as if the blade ended there. Its actually quite easy! Lastly I would like to say, I am NOT talking about a fully serrated blade vrs a full plain.Which seems to come acrossed in your comparisions? (not sure ) My tests have shown that these(fully serrated) are not as versitle as a combo edge. So please don't lump them together in testing. I say to alot of you to try it for yourself and see. Maybe you have years ago?? Try it again with a Spyderco,Microtech,Mission,BM, ect. ect. just about everyone has combos in there line and alot of customs will install them if you ask..Hey! even Mike Tuber can fix you up!! Come on go ahead, you MIGHT like it
HEY Dave Rock..How do you want the grind on those two front teeth,the CS Grande or the full SPYDIE bite..? How bout the KRAIT mini jags?
We've got to stop meeting like this!!
Happy, happy ,happy......Bart
HEY Dave Rock..How do you want the grind on those two front teeth,the CS Grande or the full SPYDIE bite..? How bout the KRAIT mini jags?
We've got to stop meeting like this!!
Happy, happy ,happy......Bart
Cliff Stamp
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Saying people buy serrated edges because they don't know enough about knives to get the required performance out of a serrated knife is wonderfully condescending. Serrated knives cut certain types of materials much better than plain edges even plain edges that are sharpened coarsely and have a nice geometry and they are much more durable. If you don't do the work that they are suited for that's cool, just realize that not everyone has the same cutting chores.
And as for a serrated Khukuri, I asked Bill (of HI) about that awhile ago. That kamis who make the knives have very strict ideas about what exactly a khukuri is. Asking them to make a serrated one would be similar to asking them to make a straight one. Anyway serrations on a khukuri would be far from useless, take a look at Mad Dog's serration pattern. That would be very nice to have on an Ang Khola. It would be cool if he would rehandle it as well. Not much chance of either happening though.
-Cliff
[This message has been edited by Cliff Stamp (edited 09 March 1999).]
And as for a serrated Khukuri, I asked Bill (of HI) about that awhile ago. That kamis who make the knives have very strict ideas about what exactly a khukuri is. Asking them to make a serrated one would be similar to asking them to make a straight one. Anyway serrations on a khukuri would be far from useless, take a look at Mad Dog's serration pattern. That would be very nice to have on an Ang Khola. It would be cool if he would rehandle it as well. Not much chance of either happening though.
-Cliff
[This message has been edited by Cliff Stamp (edited 09 March 1999).]
I wasn't gonna bring this up, BUT my wife is an architectual seamstress, working on all sorts of designs, spec contracts with all sorts of state of the art fabrics, canvas,nylon,kevlar,goretex vinyls webbing, and some materials unknown to many, even wire messing, fire retardent cloths ect ect. Many are used in space apps., gov.speced projects. She cuts thousands of times a week! I was amazed to see she uses combo edge 440 stainless scissors made in Japan.Under the Juki name.(Seki Cty.?) There are several sizes, and her main pair are works of art. One pair has gel pads and a slight tanto point. About 7" cutting area with apprx. 2" of plain edge.. She often hooks the material in the serrated part of the scissors and zips across a 48" wide fabric. She follows patterns, straight edges and tells me that serrations are the heat!! They work much longer and the plain tip works for the delicate and precise cuts, all in one tool. Just another area where there are advantages to a combo edge.
They cost like a $100 bucks..Come in a leather sheaths..I was gonna order her a Kydex
Now I am not saying everyone needs serrated scissors, but they are very useful.. She also informs me that they keep certain matrials from un raveling, similar to pinking shears. Anybody ever noticed small slight serrations on tin or av snips? Man these things are everywhere! Well, enough said. gotta go work!
They cost like a $100 bucks..Come in a leather sheaths..I was gonna order her a Kydex
Cliff Stamp
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Bart, my mother was also a seamstress and I asked her about a similar pair of sissors that she had. I though they were for pattern cutting but no they are used to cut heavier material than standard sissors. They hold their edge *much* longer and they also as you noted tend to not disrupt fabrics as much as plain edged versions. The last point was very odd sounding to me, I would have guessed the opposite.
-Cliff
-Cliff
Gary W. Graley
“Imagination is more important than knowledge"
Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
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One of the things that most people do with pocket knives is; sharpen a pencil. I sharpened one once so that the all flats went all the way out to the pencil tip and told my daughter to take it to school and pretend to put it in the pencil sharpener and then exclaim to the teacher `Look what the sharpener did to my pencil!
'
But when I take a serrated blade to sharpen a pencil, it makes a near perfect round point that is fun to do.
I prefer straight edges, dislike partial serrations, the Swiss tool has a serrated blade and plain which is nice to be able to chose.
my .02
G2
But when I take a serrated blade to sharpen a pencil, it makes a near perfect round point that is fun to do.
I prefer straight edges, dislike partial serrations, the Swiss tool has a serrated blade and plain which is nice to be able to chose.
my .02
G2
Cliff Stamp
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Bart I am not exactly sure what you are referring to. What part of my post are you commenting on?
-Cliff
-Cliff
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Okay, guys, just to make sure I wasn't crazy, I went out to the garage and tried some cutting tests. I used a serrated edge knife and two plain edge knives. I used just one serrated edge knife, because all spyderco serrations are ground at about the same angle. For this test, I chose one of the greatest knives in the history of knives
, the Spyderco Endura fully-serrated (sorry Bartman, you had not replied before I started the tests). For my plain edge knives, I chose my two carry knives. The Spyderco Calypso Jr. to represent ultra-thin-edged plain blades, and the Benchmade Axis to represent thicker, less-specialized plain blades. Note neither of these had the very coarse finish that I would use to make them really competitive.
Okay, first test was on rope that was thin enough to be push-cut. I cut the rope the way I normally do -- looped in one hand, cut against the inside of the loop. Calypso Jr. was the hands down winner here, I could do a push-cut through it without exerting much effort. The thicker-edge Axis came in second, I had to do 60% push cut 40% slice, but once the recurve hit it zipped through easily. With the serrated Endura I had to use mostly slicing, which is noticeably less efficient for cutting a rope that could have been push-cut.
Next test was thicker harder rope that had to be sliced. The ultra-thin and too-polished Calypso Jr. still did surprisingly well, I push-cut hard and sliced just enough to keep things biting. It was a bit behind the other two. The endura was awesome, but somewhat to my surprise the Axis did even better! The recurve, coupled with a high thin edge, makes it perform nicely. So much for slicing rope -- I actually got a plain edge to perform at par of even better than the serrated. It repeated it with the hardest poly rope I could find. The harder the rope the better the serrated does, but the Axis was still ahead by a nose.
Next up, ultra-hard plastic. Here the serrated edge truly is king, it kicked butt. The Axis did okay, but really needs a rougher grit on the edge to compete better. Even so, I don't think it'll ever match the serrated edge. I didn't bother trying the Calypso.
On to cardboard and the zipper cut. Calypso Jr.'s thin edge is the winner here. Both the endura and Axis aren't too far behind. But the thing about serrated blades is, they can only zipper-cut efficiently if what you're cutting has a lower diameter than the diameter of the recurve. Once I thickened the cardboard, the serrated edge stopped zipper cutting efficiently. That's a good point to bring out -- if you're zipper-cutting thin things, the serrated still works.
Next stop whittling, where the Calypso Jr. and Axis performed excellently, the serrated edge not so great.
Didn't bother chopping veggies and preparing food, have tried it before many times and know the results already. There's a reason professional chefs use mostly plain edge knives. The recurve on the Axis makes it less suitable for this work, also. The Calypso kicks butt.
Then I did some limp-material tests. How relevent this test is varies from user to user. I seem to do a reasonable amount of it. Cutting loose (usuall fibrous) material that I'm trying to hold stationary with one hand and cut with the other. The serrated edge snags the material and pulls it around. The plain edge can often push-cut through it.
Anyway, I'll say again that if you're dong certain jobs, a serrated edge makes lots of sense. With certain other jobs (I think a wider range of jobs), a plain edge makes sense. I just wanted to show that phantom's claim that serrated edges outcut plain edges isn't true -- this happens only in some jobs.
Trying very hard not to be insulting, I will also express my belief that one big difference is the skill it takes to make a serrated or plain edge perform. With a serrated edge, the performance all comes for free -- performance is ground in at the factory. With a plain edge, you may have to re-sharpen and correctly choose the right bevel angles and grits to get the performance you need. A typical Axis straight from the Benchmade factory wouldn't cut the way my hand-honed version does. It isn't that difficult to get it performing this way, but you have to know what to do. Probably everyone involved in this string can do it just fine.
Of course, once I was finished I realized I cheated a little bit. The Axis, due to the recurve, isn't an apples-to-apples test.
Joe
jat@cup.hp.com
Okay, first test was on rope that was thin enough to be push-cut. I cut the rope the way I normally do -- looped in one hand, cut against the inside of the loop. Calypso Jr. was the hands down winner here, I could do a push-cut through it without exerting much effort. The thicker-edge Axis came in second, I had to do 60% push cut 40% slice, but once the recurve hit it zipped through easily. With the serrated Endura I had to use mostly slicing, which is noticeably less efficient for cutting a rope that could have been push-cut.
Next test was thicker harder rope that had to be sliced. The ultra-thin and too-polished Calypso Jr. still did surprisingly well, I push-cut hard and sliced just enough to keep things biting. It was a bit behind the other two. The endura was awesome, but somewhat to my surprise the Axis did even better! The recurve, coupled with a high thin edge, makes it perform nicely. So much for slicing rope -- I actually got a plain edge to perform at par of even better than the serrated. It repeated it with the hardest poly rope I could find. The harder the rope the better the serrated does, but the Axis was still ahead by a nose.
Next up, ultra-hard plastic. Here the serrated edge truly is king, it kicked butt. The Axis did okay, but really needs a rougher grit on the edge to compete better. Even so, I don't think it'll ever match the serrated edge. I didn't bother trying the Calypso.
On to cardboard and the zipper cut. Calypso Jr.'s thin edge is the winner here. Both the endura and Axis aren't too far behind. But the thing about serrated blades is, they can only zipper-cut efficiently if what you're cutting has a lower diameter than the diameter of the recurve. Once I thickened the cardboard, the serrated edge stopped zipper cutting efficiently. That's a good point to bring out -- if you're zipper-cutting thin things, the serrated still works.
Next stop whittling, where the Calypso Jr. and Axis performed excellently, the serrated edge not so great.
Didn't bother chopping veggies and preparing food, have tried it before many times and know the results already. There's a reason professional chefs use mostly plain edge knives. The recurve on the Axis makes it less suitable for this work, also. The Calypso kicks butt.
Then I did some limp-material tests. How relevent this test is varies from user to user. I seem to do a reasonable amount of it. Cutting loose (usuall fibrous) material that I'm trying to hold stationary with one hand and cut with the other. The serrated edge snags the material and pulls it around. The plain edge can often push-cut through it.
Anyway, I'll say again that if you're dong certain jobs, a serrated edge makes lots of sense. With certain other jobs (I think a wider range of jobs), a plain edge makes sense. I just wanted to show that phantom's claim that serrated edges outcut plain edges isn't true -- this happens only in some jobs.
Trying very hard not to be insulting, I will also express my belief that one big difference is the skill it takes to make a serrated or plain edge perform. With a serrated edge, the performance all comes for free -- performance is ground in at the factory. With a plain edge, you may have to re-sharpen and correctly choose the right bevel angles and grits to get the performance you need. A typical Axis straight from the Benchmade factory wouldn't cut the way my hand-honed version does. It isn't that difficult to get it performing this way, but you have to know what to do. Probably everyone involved in this string can do it just fine.
Of course, once I was finished I realized I cheated a little bit. The Axis, due to the recurve, isn't an apples-to-apples test.
Joe
jat@cup.hp.com