Who buys all the serrated edges?

Bart --

Just to keep things clear, again I'll say that if things are working for you, great! I don't want to change your mind. There are definitely, UNDOUBTEDLY uses for which a fully-serrated or partially-serrated knife has the edge. All of us here do different things with our knives, it's natural we'd come across different solutions.

I'm trying to get to the nitty-gritty of what serrations are good at. Ignoring other format issues, for the moment, here's the answer I think. Slicing hard things, the clear winner. Zipper-cutting thin things, as good as plain. Slicing rope, I can get a plain blade to get comparable performance. Push-cutting rope, plain blade wins. Zipper-cutting thick things, plain blade wins. Food prep, plain blade wins on most but not all tasks. Serrated wins on time between sharpenings.

BTW, I've somewhat demonstrated the incredible performance of a recurved blade. It's the ultimate in plain-blade performance. A partially-serrated recurved blade might be the ultimate for you! The Axis and Pinnacle both come in partially-serrated, I suggest you run to your nearest dealer. There now, I've cost you at least $100
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. That'll teach you to argue with me
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Okay, so that leads us to the partially-serrated blade. I have carried a partially-serrated blade for a long time. When I bought my mini-AFCK BT it only came partially-serrated, and that was my carry knife for 2 years. The Pinnacle I have is partially-serrated too. So are a host of others.

I can see where you'd find it useful. I found it mostly a distraction. I don't cut hard plastic pipe or the like often, which is really the place serrated blades shine. For everything else, I could get the plain blade to do what I wanted. And for many jobs, the serrations are at the *most* convenient place for me to work -- close to the handle, at the maximum-control point. For food prep, they were totally in the way. For things I wanted a long plain edge for, the serrations were again in the way. It's like I had two separate knives, a 2" plain blade and 1.5" serrated, instead of one long knife. Not to mention I have not met a serration yet -- neither the rounded Benchmade's or pointy Spyderco's -- where I didn't start chipping both the hills and the valleys pretty quickly. I take it back, the serrations on my M-2 AFCK are still intact, which probably means it's a material issue.

Again, if the partially-serrated works for you, great. I assume you're doing more PVC pipe cutting and the like than I do. Is that true? If not, maybe we can figure out why partially-serrated works for you but not for me.


Joe
jat@cup.hp.com

[This message has been edited by Joe Talmadge (edited 09 March 1999).]
 
This is a great thread! I did a little survey among some people here at the marina, both boaters and workers. The most carried among those surveyed is the Gerber Multi-Tool. Number two are Spydercos. Number three are Buck 110s. The rest were a mix of Leathermans, two Bucktools, two Buck Yachtsmans, a serrated Gator, and four or five cheap knockoffs.

1.Several of the Gerber owners liked the choice of a plain or serrated blade on their tools.
2.One of the 110s had such a course edge that it looked serrated.

Uh-oh...got to go back to work. I'll try to finish the observations later.

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Frank
jqsurf@worldnet.att.net

 
This is a great thread! I did a little survey among some people here at the marina, both boaters and workers. The most carried among those surveyed is the Gerber Multi-Tool. Number two are Spydercos. Number three are Buck 110s. The rest were a mix of Leathermans, two Bucktools, two Buck Yachtsmans, a serrated Gator, and four or five cheap knockoffs.

1.Several of the Gerber owners liked the choice of a plain or serrated blade on their tools.
2.One of the 110s had such a course edge that it looked serrated.

Uh-oh...got to go back to work. I'll try to finish the observations later.

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Frank
jqsurf@worldnet.att.net

 
As you noted Joe its a biased comparasion when you run a serrated edge against a "plain" edge that is not really plain (it has some of the features of a serrated edge). If you really wanted to test serrated against plain run the endura against a blade that is really plain like a no belly tanto. You will then find that the serrated cuts much better on the normal stiff materials like rope cardboard etc. By the way have you tried alternating the grit used on the serrated edge to see where it performs best?

There are a lot of simple untruths about serrated blades. One of the worst has to be how difficult they are to sharpen and that you need to carry a lot of gear to maintain the edge.

Take a spyderco sharpmaker. Now take your endura and saw into the stick. Keep the endura at the same place vertically just cut like you are trying to cut the stick in half. Do this for about 15-20 seconds. Flip it over and now lightly do the other side. Bingo you are done. This is actually much easier than sharpening the plain edged one. You will wear the sticks in spots though. Of course if you don't want to you can slice down the stick which will make the wear uniform. Its not like you need the sharpmaker either just use any stone (ceramics are best as they wear the slowest) and just angle it against something and do the same motion on the edge of the stone. For soft knives I don't even use a stone let alone the sharpmaker I just use a simple butchers steel and the same method. This creates a microserrated pattern on the macroserrated one and it slices really well.

The reason that serrated blades cut better is that they present the blade at an angle to the material and that allows the force you exert to actually be used to cut instead of just having the knife slip along the material (like if it was smoothly polished and straight). If you microserrate a plain edge the little teeth bite in and then as you push across they cut at thier depth and then penetrate and then cut at thier depth etc. Similar to macroserrations if you push really hard on the knife. The same principle makes knives with forward positive rake / belly / recurve / whatever slice well.

Anyway no one is claiming that serrated blades work well on cutting flimsy material like fabrics they are exceptionally lously at that all they do is pull the material around. In fact labeling all serrations as the same makes for error prone statements. For example Joe have you ever used Mad Dog's serrations? They behave very different from the Cold Steel/Benchmade/Spyderco serrations. They actually cut rope *worse* than a normal plain edge. They are so coarse they just pull the rope about instead of actually cutting it. This is of course because they are meant to cut tougher material. Take a plain edged ATAK and a DSU2 and cut an oil drum in half and then see which knife you would rather use to cut up another one.

Anyway in general if you pick any blade geometry no matter how funky there will be tasks that it outperforms all other blades at. What you as a knife user has to do is pick the right geometry that works best for you. For some people that is a serrated blade and yes some of those people know how to sharpen a knife.

-Cliff

 
Continued.
3. The Gator had never been sharpened in several years of use. It would still cut line but you would have to saw through it.
4. One of the Leathermans was a Super Tool. It's owner is a groundskeeper. He uses the saw to cut PVC pipe.
5. The nearby marine supply stores sell mostly serrated knives. Of the people I surveyed, most of the serrated knives were newer than the plain edged models.



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Frank
jqsurf@worldnet.att.net

 
To summarize all my replys in this thread! Combo edges are NOT superior to plain edges! Combo edges ARE more versatile than plain edges! Thanks
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Cliff --

To start at the end, I've been falling over myself trying to make sure my statement regarding lack of knife sharpening skill was a general one, and not particularly directed at serrated edge owners. There should be no need to continue insisting that some serrated edge owners know how to sharpen a knife -- that's never been an issue. It's a strawman, if you're directed that remark at me.

Also, your statement, "no one is claiming that serrated blades work well on cutting flimsy material" isn't quite right. Phantom made a pretty clear assertion that serrated blades outcut plain ones, and no one seemed to challenge it. We both agree that that view is wrong, but you can't say no one is claiming this -- someone already has. And it's been claimed before in serrated vs. plain threads.

As to Spyderco serrations, I agree it limits the conversation to talk only about them, but several times in this string responders have insisted we talk about them, so for simplifying the argument I went along with their wishes. I'll continue that for now.

Okay! The Axis wasn't quite fair, a plain endura is what I really should have tested versus the serrated endura, but in fairness I've done that many times in the past. The plain endura would still blow away the serrated endura on all push-cutting jobs, slicing anything soft or not under tension, and food prep. There would be parity in zipper cuts until the thing being zipper-cut got too thick, then the serrated knife performance would quickly fade. That's a lot of things the plain edge performs better at. For slicing hard things, the serrated edge wins, but a thin coarse-ground plain edge usually doesn't do *that* badly -- you could definitely think of corner cases where the coarse-ground doesn't work so well though.

One thing about rope-cutting. Push-cutting is the fastest way to get through rope. Unless you're a sailor, chances are much of the rope you're cutting can be push-cut through, and you can push-cut a plain edge through such rope way faster and easier than you can slice a serrated blade through it. Plain and simple, my plain Calypso Jr. is my king rope cutter, among most of the rope I usually cut. So while I'll agree the serrated endura will somewhat outperform the plain endura in slicing hard rope, most rope cutting I do I can push-cut through, and the plain edge rules there.

I also agree about ease of sharpening of the serrated blade. It's easy to do, given a triangle sharpener. It just means you need to have your rig wherever you are, or wait 'til you get home, probably not an issue most of the time. On the other hand, taking a few swipes on a piece of file isn't that difficult either.

In the end, as I've made clear from my very first response, I've stated the serrated blade does have its advantages. Anyone doing a lot of cutting of PVC pipe or very thick hard rope or cutting metal drums in half (to use your example) with their knife probably wants to look into serrations as an option. On the other hand, I often hear blanket statements like "serrations outperform plain blades". And often from people who aren't necessarily *ever* cutting PVC pipe or metal drums. These folks aren't just speaking sloppily; rather, their serrated blades really do cut through everything better than their plain blades. Why would that be?

Joe
jat@cup.hp.com
 
Hey guys,

I'm really enjoying this thread. I bring that up because I've gotten email from people, making sure we're still friends, even though we disagree on this.

Sometimes on the internet, a spirited defense of one's position can all-too-easily be interpreted as hostility. I don't think anyone involved in this thread has been hostile at all. If we were all at a bar, we'd yell our arguments at each other from across the table, then buy some tequila shots and that would be it. That's the same way it should be here!

Keep at it!

Joe
jat@cup.hp.com
 
More meat and potatoes discussion please. This is great!

I see no hostility, as you remind us Joe, only some great discussions. Some forumites seem to want closure, but it may never happen on this one. It's ok to agree to disagree or not even agree on that much!

 
Joe Talmadge, one important thing that you fail to mention in your testing is that the serrated edge will generally stay sharper longer than a plain edge.

(I apologize if you mentioned this. There has been so much written that I easily could have missed it.
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)

One thing that I use a knife for that I haven't heard anyone mention is cutting plastic wrap which is tightly wrapped around boxes/cartons of merchandise. It's hard for me to describe it but, if you've done it before, you know what I'm talking about. usually, I slowly slash cut the plastic wrap or sometimes, use the point of the blade. After using a plain edge for a while, the edge gets dull and, so does the point. I know all you have to do is resharpen it but, why bother? A serreated edge with its teeth works perfectly a long time after the plain edge gets dull.

Also, if I may get defensive for a moment, for the record, I can definitely sharpen knives very well (different angles, polished edge, rough edge, whatever . . . ) but, I still prefer a serrated edge!

Bernie
 
Joe T, I thought your testing and your findings afterwards were just about right.
It seemed like you tried to be fair and unbiased. But MPS did say that serrated edges would not cut corragated cardboard.
Cliff, you also brought up many good points, as did Bernie and Bartman.
I own all three kinds of edges, and I like all of them...I respect everyones opinion, and have enjoyed this thread. And I learned a few things to, about knives and about the great people here.
Mick
 
Joe, the comments I made about serrated edges being not that much harder to sharpen and that people know how to sharpen knives and still like serrated blades were not directed at arguements that you were using, but rather general comments that constantly get used. By the way you don't need the whole spyderco rig to sharpen a serrated blade anymore than you need it sharpen a plain edge. If you can do one you can do the other. I just carry the Sypderco fine stone in a pouch I can estimate the angle quite easily and either do it with the the stone flat or just prop it up against something.

Regarding Phantom's comment, the kind of cutting he mentions is the type that serrated edges work well on as you noted, stiff material. In terms of cutting rope push cutting only works on lighter rope. Once the rope gets thick or really hard you are better off sawing. Of course if you have really good forearm strength then this is not much of an issue.

I am not discounting your results, they are exactly what I would have expected. Similar for a plain edged and serrated edged Endura. I would expect a decently sharpened plain edged version to keep up until the material started to get really hard.

Anyway, besides cutting power the serrated edges offer two significant advantages. Both appreciated for people who do heavy work. The first is that the edge retention is not even in the same league (this depends on what you are cutting, the harder the material the better the serrated edges do). The second is that neither is edge durability. If you are cutting with a plain edge and happen to strike a nail you can damage quite a bit of your plain edge as the metal drags along it and squats it out. If you are using a serrated blade then it just hangs up on a serration. This is why I mentioned the DSU2 vs ATAK cutting test. The damage on the DSU2 would be highly localized. All the rest of the blade would be still nice and sharp, the ATAK would not fare as well.

One thing that I have noticed is that most people that I know that own knives use them a *lot* harder than most people that post on these forums. I have got the response "I don't abuse my knives" many times when I asked about how a knife would stand up to a particular kind of cutting - yet I grew up with looking at knives supposed to be able to handle that kind of work. I do live in a very rural place though so knives are regular tools the word tactical is never applied to them. Based on that I would not be surprised to see a lot of serrated edges being sold as then can take much more heavier work than a plain edge and still be usable. Its why my brother chose a serrated Endura over a plain edge one. He knocks the edge off the regular Endura much too fast. He could care less that it makes sloppier cuts. Serration / plain edge is strongly dependent on the type of cutting you do as is just about any aspect of picking out the right knife.

-Cliff
 
Okay guys, I've been away a couple of days and just read all the new posts. This is good stuff. I also don't feel any hostility, just good, spirited discussion. I think it all comes down to what you like what you are used to and what you are comfortable using. If you look at indiginous people all over the world you will notice that particular blade styles tend to predominate in a particular area presumably developed over the years to be most effective in their particular enviroment. While many of these blades would not meet definition of very good to excellent, the native people used them effectively for all kinds of tasks. These are blades they grew up with and use everyday. If I ever win the big lottery, I'd like to travel the world collecting examples of indiginous and they have copies made by custom makers using the best modern materials and testing them side by side. Wouldn't that be awesome! I do have to respond to the comments about food preparation with serrated blades. I do a lot of cooking myself and if I was limited to one kitchen knife it would be an 8 or 10 inch forged chef's knife. But serrated blades do have their place. Take the 6 1/2 Spyderco kitchen utility. It is awesome at slicing tomatoes paper thin, excellent for bread also does a vert good job at cutting meat' both raw and cooked. For those of you unfamiliar with this knife, the blade is much thinner than their folders, after all it is a kitchen knife, but it uses the same serration patterns. Over the years I have gotten special deals on volume buys of these knives. Everyone who has ordered one of these knives from me has come back to order more either for their own use or for gifts. I would conservatively estimate that I am personly responsible for placing about 100 of these knives in various peoples hands and I have never had a single complaint---often the response is can you get me another?

phantom4

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who dares, wins

 
While this thread it incredibly interesting, and I have learned a lot, I am curious about one thing. Why buy a plain, serrated, or combo and swear by it, when you can buy one plain, one serrated, AND one combo in most configurations, and carry all three if you are so inclined.

For me, I'll stick with plain edge, and I don't have a hope of sharpening a serrated correctly (don't have the patience). Based on what I read at Missionknives articles on how to sharpen them.

Evin
 
Cliff -- As I kind of expected, I think we basically have the same views, just different feelings on how important one use might be over another. I can live with that

Phantom -- Ya, I agree. If you do win the lottery, you'll need a travellin' buddy
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Evin -- Okay, now you went and done it! I've been talking with bart a little bit about this, and it is worth discussing. WHILE I UNDERSTAND THE ATTRACTION OF A PARTIALLY-SERRATED BLADE, I find for my uses the partially-serrated is the "worst of all worlds". There are many uses for which the serrations can get in the way, especially since they're at the maximum-control point. And since they're often out-of-line with the plain edge, sometimes when I just need one long plain edge, the serrations again get in the way. It's kind of like I have a 3" plain blade and 1" serrated blade, when often what I want is a 4" blade. And really, if 1" of serrations is all you need, maybe there's a better way?

If I felt like I needed a serrated blade, I'd almost certainly carry two knives. Well, I carry two knives already -- an Axis and a Calypso Jr. If all I needed was a little bit of serrations, I might replace the Calypso Jr. with a serrated delica, or something even smaller. If I needed lots of serrations, I'd replace the Axis with a serrated endura, and keep the Calypso Jr.

Anyway, just my strategy. I find partially-serrated cumbersome. I know for sure many of the people in this string disagree, and find p-s the best of all worlds.

Joe
jat@cup.hp.com
 
Joe, partial serrations are something I don't like either. Like in the recent note I posted in the review forum, the serrations on the mini-AFCK combo didn't help at all on any of the cutting I was doing. In fact I think I have actually used them once (besides testing). Its all in what you do though, my brother loves the combo Endura he has.

-Cliff
 
In my field (stagehand) most of the younger guys (twenties and thirties) carry a one handed, combo edged blade, usually with a pocket clip. Most of the older fellows will carry a lock back, plain edged, in a sheath.
I find the combo edge useful on a work knife, as I will put my blade to some abuse and you sometimes need a saw handy. Because of the abuse factor, and the fact that I have hade a few items walk away from the job site of thier own accord, I usually carry something I won't mind losing, like a Buck Crosslock or a Junglee Sahara.
The only full serrated blade I keep is a Spyderco Rescue in the door of my car.
 
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