Who else uses a scythe?

[panyo]

The next frontier will be torches and sharpening setups.
I just got this while waiting to hear back on an offer on the other:

The blade is bent, with the rib rising up as high as my the width of my
wire brush (about an inch) with the tang and toe flat. It is stamped with an
oval

(NWT CO
W 51 )
At this rate, I'll have enough scythes to start community workshops by the Spring..
Adding to my scythe statistics,
today was 3 scythes in good shape, 3 stored outside, 1 weed blade, 5 grass, one grain cradle with no blade and in real bad shape, one with backsaver hardware.
And one sharp hay knife.

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

That "lift" of the tip that you're seeing is what's known as the crown, and is a desirable feature.

Those snaths are in pretty rough shape and I'll be surprised if you can save the nibs on them. Proper rust removal is a challenge with the Sta-Tites unless you don't mind drilling out the rivet and then bucking it back together once you're done. Looks like a good blade, though badly rusted.

The ring models tend to work best with blades that are on the light side for their size, as the hardware (between the ring and the Back Saver wedge) is on the heavy side.

 

[Raymond1000]

The things I learn here….

I just watched the 1947 movie, Golden Earrings. It’s set in Germany just before WWII. The protagonists drive their Gipsy caravan past some farm workers, harvesting by hand.

One wields an all-wood pitch fork. The other a scythe. A scythe with an American style snath.

I watched the flick years ago, and never knew the difference.

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

Hahaha--yeah they probably shot it in the 'states and the producers likely didn't know the difference.

 

[panyo]

That "lift" of the tip that you're seeing is what's known as the crown, and is a desirable feature.

Those snaths are in pretty rough shape and I'll be surprised if you can save the nibs on them. Proper rust removal is a challenge with the Sta-Tites unless you don't mind drilling out the rivet and then bucking it back together once you're done. Looks like a good blade, though badly rusted.

The 'lift' is in the wrong direction. Sta-Tite is the snath, based
on the type of ring mounting hardware? Or they are the ones with the
pending patent on the wedge?

Another thing I noticed, that I think is mentioned somewhere in this
thread is that there is a big difference between the curvature of my
light little Derby and Ball and this one.

You post at the end of the previous page about breakage rate and
de-lamination make me think what is going on here is that the 'back
saver' is actually a substitute for bending the snath. I also think
there may be some slant cut into some of the brush snaths, possibly
mine with the 4 holes, explaining why I can get the 4th hole blade
parallel to the ground on it.

What is the logic of the snath geometry? I am starting to think it may
be a balance between the vertical plane of the human geometry and the
horizontal plane of the earth with the plane of the blade and the
curve of the snath needing to reconcile them at a distance less than
infinity. Is there a paper explaining the curve of the snath?

I have a lengthy speculation, but before I post it, here are pictures
of my snaths.

The first set are placed so that if they had a blade it would be
parallel to the ground:

the same from the top:

The next include my latest additions, this time
naturally resting on their curves, ranked from most curved to least:

My guess is that there is an optimal wood, and that more curve is higher
quality.

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

The ring-and-set screw model is a Sta-Tite, and the pending patent is not for the wedge, but for the tabs used to brace the bottom plate. The patent was granted on it.

Indeed, the I.B.S. wedge was sometimes used as a "cheat" to save money through reduced breakage and delamination rates by using less curvature. However, some examples have curvature equal to that of an "average" snath (if there is such a thing) in addition to having the wedge. And yes, a number of Seymours with the press-formed closed-ended collars like yours have the end cut at an angle.

There is an ideal balance of curvature/angulation, but it's difficult for me to quantify in words at this point in time. I plan on doing some posts on that topic in future, as well as optimal blade/snath pairings for good weight and balance. High curvature, indeed, is usually a sign of higher quality due to the higher caliber of wood quality required and the increased breakage rates involved. A snath of high curvature is a joy, and I'm lucky enough to have a few. The one I have of highest curvature and lightest build is exclusively a piece for the collection as I like to use it as a model, as it were, of what a truly well-executed snath looks like.

 

[panyo]

Thanks:
my Craftsman is looking like it might rank pretty well then. It is
thin, light, curved. There was some play in the end cap. I took it
apart and something had made a nest- maybe a mud dauber? There seems
to be a sliver off of one end, but the rest looks like new so I hope
cleaning and re-assembling and filling that sliver will make it
tight.

The blade is a new mark: N or N D

On snath geometry, since you have not already done it, here is my shot
at it:
Assuming that the problem to be solved in getting the blade to lie flat:

4 parameters that can be set are:
1) the length of the snath (at infinity, the blade will sit parallel to the mowing plane).
This has a price in terms of weight and loss of mechanical advantage.
The loss of mechanical advantage from the longer lever arm to the resisting grass would require
a) more human strength
b) faces 2 constraints at the point where
i) the nibs could not be made tight enough to resist slippage against the force
ii) the snath breaks.
These constraints could both be slackened by making the snath thicker, which would add
to weight.
2) the setting angle of the tang.
This adds cost if done at the forge and may compromise strength if accommodated to a
straight snath? Either blades would have to be in sizes, like shoes, or they would have to
be set at a blacksmith after purchase. In the 1850's blacksmiths were pretty common.
Maybe it would have been like having clothing tailored today.

3) the drop of the snath from the lower hand.
i) Square profile would be constrained by strength of wood and diameter of trees.
ii) Multiple pieces would introduce cost and weakness at joints.
iii) Using a round profile puts the constraint at the ability to bend wood, which
you have documented.

4) Diameter of the snath.
The wood has to be a certain diameter to resist the forces put on it
by the blade. These are governed by the length of the blade, the hafting angel
of the scythe, the type of material being cut, the weight of the blade, and how
the mounting hardware distributes the forces.
sub-problem: engineer mounting hardware to minimize strain on wood subject to weight.

subproblem:
Hafting angle might be like gears on a bike, letting you trade off between strength
and speed. Is there an optimal angle of attack for the cut against the plant? Is this
a function of blade sharpness? Blade thickness? This will affect the length of the blade.
Longer blade allows a more acute angle of attack for the same sized swath/speed
at the cost of power. The cutting friction is a function of the surface area of the swath,
so long blades pay a price in weight for angle of attack. This must substitute for sharpness
or thinness? So a super long blade should cut better assuming we reach maximum razor
sharpness? The grain cradle seems not to have to reach the ground, and has the longest
blade length. The fancy handle curves appear to let you open up your stroke wider. It is
a shorter lever, so you can put more force at the end.

The diameter of the wood increases the difficulty of bending and
increases weight. Greater taper allows more bend, but at the price of
nib slippage. Greater taper reduces nib adjustability before reworking
the nib loop is needed. The points on the snath that need strength are the
end and the middle nib. The middle nib diameter is solved by the lever
length and the force at the end of the snath and subject to the
constraint of nib slippage if it is too narrow.

I don't think they had the mathematics to do this until the 20th century.

Assuming they got the math right, the things to look for in a snath will be
maximum bend. This will call upon an optimal wood- that which can bend
the most while being strong and not flexing under use. Are the material
properties of wood such that the the problem reaches the optimal
solution point?

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

There is much more to it than getting the blade to lay flat, and in fact this is not always what you desire. A more upward set to the blade is often preferred in rocky ground or when cutting weedy/shrubby targets to cut better diagonally across the grain of growth. Additionally, the reason for introducing curvature is chiefly for improved ergonomics without the loss in durability that would come with a stem grip passing through the snath. The balance of the tool is also important. While the American scythe is supposed to be end-heavy by design, there is a limit to how greatly this should be. Many Seymours are over-thick in the neck and overly thin at the small end, for instance, while some Sta-Tites have too linear and gradual of a taper, resulting in bulk just below the lower nib and sometimes between the nibs. When Derby & Ball snaths are faulty in execution it is usually not one of balance, but rather just too much wood over the entire length of the tool, all of it being in balance, but simply in excess. Go overly thin through the body of the snath and without proper taper through the neck and you will have a snath that trembles greatly, robbing you of energy with each stroke and often causing undue weariness in the shoulders.

On snath geometry, since you have not already done it, here is my shot
at it:
Assuming that the problem to be solved in getting the blade to lie flat:

4 parameters that can be set are:
1) the length of the snath.
This has a price in terms of weight and loss of mechanical advantage.

Not only this, but also the aforementioned loss of rigidity would be an issue as well. Furthermore, there would be an overall loss of ergonomics, as one would not be able to as readily make adaptive changes to the angulation of the stroke for circumstances such as brush removal or getting into low spots.

The loss of mechanical advantage from the longer lever arm to the resisting grass would require
a) more human strength
b) faces 2 constraints at the point where
i) the nibs could not be made tight enough to resist slippage against the force
ii) the snath breaks.
These constraints could both be slackened by making the snath thicker, which would add
to weight.

Yup! Except the nibs should, within the relevant range I have a hard time envisioning a circumstance where the nibs could not be sufficiently tightened so long as the nib irons and blocks were appropriately sized. If the arc created by the circumference of the snath is in excess of that of the mating surface of the nib block then the cusps of the block will dig into the snath, crushing the wood a bit (undesirable) but gripping quite firmly. It is generally more problematic when the wood is too narrow for the form of the block, but in that circumstance you still have the medial grooves that will bite in. This only affects rotation of the nibs, and not lateral strain. Since lateral movement is the orientation where the nibs are opposing the vector of force during the stroke.

2) the setting angle of the tang.
This adds cost if done at the forge and may compromise strength if accommodated to a
straight snath? Either blades would have to be in sizes, like shoes, or they would have to
be set at a blacksmith after purchase. In the 1850's blacksmiths were pretty common.
Maybe it would have been like having clothing tailored today.

The greater the tang angulation the weaker the tang will be, as there will be less metal directly opposing the vectors of force, which is why it is desirable to curve the neck of the snath so it minimizes the necessary amount of tang angulation. This makes it so that if cutting very tough targets or mowing on very rocky ground the tang requires no adjustment and is directly aligned with the plane of the blade. The first 12" of the neck of the snath are typically unbent as well, creating a stout bracing effect. And yes, pitching the tang was (and SHOULD still be) the primary means for the customer to adjust the lay of the blade for their task. See the below image from THIS Australian document which was referenced at one point in this thread. There are some flaws with the advice in the text, but the overwhelming majority of it is very good. You shouldn't have to bend like they show if you broaden your stance instead so your back stays straight. Pitching a tang yourself requires only fairly rudimentary equipment given the sort of person usually in need of a scythe. A MAP gas torch, a raw potato and/or soaking wet rag, a well-braced vise, and a length of pipe of sufficient diameter to fit the shoulder of the tang. Heat the shoulder/shank of the tang until at least dull red (preferably bright cherry red) then clamp in such a way to minimize strain on the web during bending, slip the pipe over the tang, and then gently but firmly twist either until the desired angle is achieved or the tang loses heat. Try to do it in one go if you can, as you want to minimize the spread of the heat into the blade and the rest of the tang. This is why I use an induction heater for mine. The tool is cost prohibitive for most folks but I tune enough blades for it to be worth it. The induction heater uses magnetic frequency to excite and heat only the narrow band of metal that's inside the coil.

3) the drop of the snath from the lower hand.
i) Square profile would be constrained by strength of wood and diameter of trees.
ii) Multiple pieces would introduce cost and weakness at joints.
iii) Using a round profile puts the constraint at the ability to bend wood, which
you have documented.

I would perhaps refer to it as the "lift" of the snath, borrowing terminology from shovels. This is one of the things that Seymour alters in their current models, with the aluminum models (No.8 and No.9) having a greater degree of lift to them to require less tang adjustment for their intended lighter-weight targets. This helps impose a limit on the range of application for the snath model, both making it easier for the customer to adjust the tang and dissuades them from using these snaths for work that is heavier than what they may handle.

4) Diameter of the snath.
The wood has to be a certain diameter to resist the forces put on it
by the blade. These are governed by the length of the blade, the hafting angel
of the scythe, the type of material being cut, the weight of the blade, and how
the mounting hardware distributes the forces.
sub-problem: engineer mounting hardware to minimize strain on wood subject to weight.

subproblem:
Hafting angle might be like gears on a bike, letting you trade off between strength
and speed. Is there an optimal angle of attack for the cut against the plant? Is this
a function of blade sharpness? Blade thickness? This will affect the length of the blade.
Longer blade allows a more acute angle of attack for the same sized swath/speed
at the cost of power. The cutting friction is a function of the surface area of the swath,
so long blades pay a price in weight for angle of attack. This must substitute for sharpness
or thinness? So a super long blade should cut better assuming we reach maximum razor
sharpness? The grain cradle seems not to have to reach the ground, and has the longest
blade length. The fancy handle curves appear to let you open up your stroke wider. It is
a shorter lever, so you can put more force at the end.

Indeed, the snath needs to be stout enough to withstand the forces being applied to it, and this will change depending on both the intended targets and what the blade it's paired with is and how it's hung--not to mention the skill and sensibility of the user. The region that sees the most strain is the neck, and the forces involved taper off the farther up the snath you move, decreasing the need for thickness as you approach the far end. While speed and/or a more closed hang may be used to somewhat counteract the diminished performance of a dull edge this is wasteful and foolish practice. The American scythe is not built as much for high-speed strokes as it is for high-momentum strokes which enable a DEEP swath to be taken without bogging down. If you try to, as the old saying went, "drive the scythe" you will exhaust yourself in short order and have little to show for your efforts. Every unit has its preferred speed and the pace by which you advance in a given field has more to do with the hang of your blade and other matters of
tuning.

Blade weights vary considerably, but not in a way correlational with blade length. Very nearly the same amount of steel was used in most bush blades (short but thick and broad) as in grass blades (thin, long, narrow)--in fact historical pricing put bush blades slightly above grass blades rather than present convention. The weight of a blade has more to do with the balancing of the unit and the momentum generation for the stroke. A heavier scythe delivers greater impulse to its targets, and thus a keen edge is required. The hollow bevel created by periodic grinding allowed for stout construction both for mass and durability without creating a thick edge geometry. The further from the edge one gets, the lesser the magnitude of influence that the geometry has on the cut. The opposite is likewise true and this is why the thinning behind the edge that results from hollow grinding on a water cooled wheel so dramatically increases cutting performance. In doing so it also reduces the time required for sharpening in the field (lower contact surface area against the stone--less material needs to be removed to restore a keen edge) and the circular form of the stone allows it to grind an edge at a thinner angle than a file or belt sander would allow since the depth of the rib and height of the chine do not obstruct the wheel like they would a flat abrasive surface.

The diameter of the wood increases the difficulty of bending and
increases weight. Greater taper allows more bend, but at the price of
nib slippage. Greater taper reduces nib adjustability before reworking
the nib loop is needed. The points on the snath that need strength are the
end and the middle nib. The middle nib diameter is solved by the lever
length and the force at the end of the snath and subject to the
constraint of nib slippage if it is too narrow.

I don't think they had the mathematics to do this until the 20th century.

Assuming they got the math right, the things to look for in a snath will be
maximum bend. This will call upon an optimal wood- that which can bend
the most while being strong and not flexing under use. Are the material
properties of wood such that the the problem reaches the optimal
solution point?

Optimal wood is, indeed, required for optimum snaths, and strength is not even the only determining factor. Black cherry was used by Derby & Ball for their finest grass snaths and they were much prized by seasoned mowers for their lightness, liveliness, and their ability to take a good strong curve. This was in spite of being a more delicate wood compared to ash.

Getting everything absolutely perfect in each area is less important, in my experience, than knowing how to tweak all of the other related aspects in order to "harmonize" the entire unit. It is most commonly possible to eliminate the deficiencies of most manufactured snaths of fair quality if the various components are all sufficiently "tweaked".

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

Mostly finished experimental wildwood American pattern snath using Russian-style bent withy grips. I accidentally cut the notch for the lower one too wide, and will have to make another. Blade is affixed via ring and wedge.

 

[panyo]

The desired compounding of rising and
lateral curves will be attained through proper orientation of the
piece.

Interesting to see the progress of this piece, and in light of your
excellent reply to my most recent speculation above, the solution to
the "desired compounding" becomes even more intriguing.

Also in light of that post, I may have to ship a batch of blades for
setting and hollow grinding as I start to wonder if I, with a lawn in
town, am "the sort of person usually in need of a scythe." I have
gotten an invitation to use my brush blade to clean up the winter
debris of an urban meadow however and there may be more of that around
town in the year to come.

On speed, I was not sufficiently precise with my terms. When I made
the bicycle gear analogy, I was thinking in terms of the rate of
progress forward along the field rather than the velocity with which
the instrument is swung, but it is good that it brought out the issue
of 'driving the scythe,' again part of the ergonomics that I did not
adequately consider in my physics and geometry reasoning.

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

Lawn units work very nicely when tuned up right. And I now understand what you mean with the gears analogy. The continental type in my experience (though admittedly limited) has been analogous of a low gear (faster and easier motion of the legs with less progress per stroke) while the American is a high gear (fewer stronger strokes for greater progress per stroke.) Both can be well matched to a given "bike route" depending on how "hilly" it is. Although I think the analogy breaks down a little where I find the American pattern very well matched to hilly/bumpy terrain. I suppose one must be careful not to be too literal with these things.

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

23 of these landed today. About as fresh as it gets--the factory wire edge is still fully present.

Interestingly, the label on the boxes states that they have Monitor heels, but this is notably absent on the blades themselves. This may represent a transition period where the feature was just being rolled out. It's unlikely that it was merely forgotten, as not only is the extended rib visually distinctive, but the company applied a dab of red paint to highlight it on those blades bearing the feature.

 

[blaisep]

Are these for sale?
I have been wanting to get a scythe before weed season and they are quite hard to find where I live.

23 of these landed today. About as fresh as it gets--the factory wire edge is still full


Interestingly, the label on the boxes states that they have Monitor heels, but this is notably absent on the blades themselves. This may represent a transition period where the feature was just being rolled out. It's unlikely that it was merely forgotten, as not only is the extended rib visually distinctive, but the company applied a dab of red paint to highlight it on those blades bearing the feature.

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

Yes sir. I'll be setting aside a few of the very best ones for collectors only (it's not common to find them quite this spotless) but the rest will be made available for general sale. That being said, I also have tons of other weed blades available in various styles that would be less expensive due to being a little more weathered in appearance, though they clean up to a brilliant shine. There are just only so many I can have on the site right now since my workshop is unheated which means the electrolysis tank for rust removal is frozen solid. As soon as it thaws out I'll be getting a bunch of other blades spiffed up--I have literally hundreds of blades of all sorts at this point.

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

These landed last night, too--a batch of custom whet stone holders based after historic originals.

 

[Double Ott]

Very nice looking. Are they a plastic/synthetic material or a horn material? Are you going to offer them on your site? How much?
Thanks, Tom

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

Genuine horn, and they'll be on the site. The black one I'm keepin' for myself but the others will be listed up. They're priced individually, dependent on the work that went into them etc., but they'll be somewhere in the $50 ballpark approximately.

 

[Double Ott]

Genuine horn, and they'll be on the site. The black one I'm keepin' for myself but the others will be listed up. They're priced individually, dependent on the work that went into them etc., but they'll be somewhere in the $50 ballpark approximately.

Sweet, thank you for your quick reply.

Tom

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

Some more photos while we work on getting them up.

 

[Square_peg]

Gawd, those are beautiful.