Who Makes The Best .....?

Joined
Mar 8, 2001
Messages
73
Guys, just wondering, in your opinion of what a survival knife should look like and preform like, who do you think or who would you get to make yours, should you need one and what features would it have, like a sheath with a sharpening stone or I even seen a knife once that had a mini-maglite, a zippo lighter and a glass lens all on the sheath. Plus why would you get this maker/s to make this knife.

Thanks.

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You are the weakest link!!

GOODBYE!!
 
I think that all the "DooDads" are the last consideration for a "Survival" Knife. You should be more concerned with the size , maker, steel and retension system among other items. Some individuals like hollow handles and large serrations on the spine. I prefer a large blade, easy to sharpen and kydex lined retension system. Dick
 
No, I'm just saying, who would you get to make YOUR perfect survival knife and what little extra if any would you add.

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You are the weakest link!!

GOODBYE!!
 
Funny you should ask:

http://www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum39/HTML/001266.html


cool.gif

 
seeing as how you are from wherer you are, I would get the one that would hold the most Guinness in the handle!!
Actually you cant go wrong with one of Chris Reeves hollow handle knives.

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http://www.mayoknives.com
John 1:14
Love is Stronger than Death!
 
Survival Knife....The knife you have on you when the S**T hits the fan and you find yourself in a survival situation.

That being said. Your needs for survival will differ from environment to environment.

Right tool for the Right job!

Probably a combination of folder/fixed blade.

Blade length will depend a lot on what you think your needs will be. Also, your height and weight will make a difference. As this will determine your ability to utilize mutlitple carry systems and locations. The bigger and taller you are, the more options you will have.

Obviously a person 6'4" could carry a 10" blade better than someone 5'6". It does no good to be 5'6" and carry a 10" blade in your back pack. As this will be one of the first things you will lose in a survival situation.

Remember it is much more important to develop the skills that you will utilize the knife for.

Take the TV Show "Survior" as an example. How stupid were those people not to practice making a fire with no tools before they got to the Outback.

Also, whatever knife you think you are going to use. Put it to the test before you need it.

If your knife has a leather sheath, get rid of it. As it holds moisture which will rust your knife as well as cause the sheath to loose it's shape. Also, the keeper strap will stretch and allow your knife to possibly fall out of the sheath.

Big knives can do little knife chores, but not the other way around. Hence my comment about a combination. You can put a Swiss Army knife in the sheath pouch on the bigger knife.

Iodine tablets, Magnisum fire starter, a compass and a space blanket are good for any little "survival kit".

Perhaps the most important thing to have in a survival sitution is a postive mental attitude. During a lot of my advanced military traning I saw a lot of people quit.

Physically, they could have continued, but they gave up mentally. In these situations it only cost them a badge or tab and some critisicm from instuctors and peers.

In a true survival situation, a quitters mentality would cost you much more than just a piece of cloth.



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Les Robertson
www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com
Custom Knife Entrepreneur
 
Rob Simonich. In fact, I did have him make me a custom survival knife!
 
I agree with Will York, pick up a Busse - either a Steel Heart or a Battle Mistress. Chris Reeve makes some fine ones as well, but my vote is still Busse...
 
8 1/2" Model 2 in 3V by Walter Brend.

I carried a 8 1/2" model 2 in D-2 in the Jungles of Panama, Desert of Africa, Alaska in the winter and the "bush" all over.

I have never used or seen a better all around tool.

Unlike the Reeve (don't know about the other, I stopped using factory knives when I saw them break all the time). Walter's knives are cryrogencially treated, which is why when in Alaska (for instance) the Randall model 14 (at -35) broke and the Brend did not.

Guys, the Reeve and the Busse are factory knives. Good factory knives, but non the less factory.

There is no comparison, custom made knives are better than factory knives.



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Les Robertson
www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com
Custom Knife Entrepreneur
 
Les Robertson:

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Walter's knives are cryrogencially treated, which is why when in Alaska (for instance) the Randall model 14 (at -35) broke and the Brend did not.</font>

I think the geometry might have been the major factor in that case. Based on pictures and spec's I have seen, I would assume that the Brend has a lot more steel at the point where the Randall broke.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">There is no comparison, custom made knives are better than factory knives.</font>

Custom by your defination, one man does the whole thing, is an inferior method both in regards to time as well as in quality of product to small shop work.

If you have a number of specialized people you can obviously generate a better product than if any of those individuals completed the project on their own - unless that individual is more skilled than all the others in all the various aspects.

By allowing people to focus on one aspect they can increase their skill much faster. Thus the group will grow in skill much faster than an individual who has to do the whole thing. As well the design and creativity of a group of people is higher than any one of them.

This is actually done to some exent i nmany custom knives. For example a knifemaker who sends out his blades to be heat treated by someone else, or get some coating applied or even gets blanks laser cut etc. .

Now in regards to custom vs production, there are areas in which custom makers in general are far behind. Consider for example locks on folding knives. There are a wealth of production blades that have much more robust locks that are common on many custom folders.

I think it is obvious that you can in general get a better knife by going custom than production, but just because a knife is custom does not imply a higher standard of quality than production, some are, some are not. It just means one guy did it - that is all. Now if you include qualifications like a Master Smith, then yes that obviously implies very high quality standards.

-Cliff

[This message has been edited by Cliff Stamp (edited 04-27-2001).]
 
Cliff,

I was wondering when you would show up.

I can see your point, however you are wrong.
Not your fault, you just didn't have the facts.

It was not a little bit of tip, it was about 1 1/2" worth of blade. That was not inferior blade geometry, that was an inferior knife.

You are correct though that the Brend is far superior to any Randall ever made.

As to those who can build better knives. Where are they? Why aren't they making knives? I would love to see some of these superior makers work.

Cliff your right. One person doing one job, year after year would get pretty good at that one job. The trick to building a custom knife is not just being able to do one function. It is having a certain level of expertise in several areas.

Of course now at the major factories, it is no longer one person it is one machine, double grinding a blade every 5 seconds for instance. Surely, you don't mean this is better than the finish of a custom made knife (which ever definition you chose).

As for locks. Remember, if you are using the knife correctly, you don't need a lock. At least that is what I was taught when I was a Cub Scout.

Locks, much like knives from the factories are done primarly for marketing. I remeber several years ago Benchmade won an award with a lock that Mel Pardue developed. A safety actually. Im sure you will correct me if I am wrong, does every Benchmade come with that lock now? How about the Axis lock, the lock to end all locks. Another award winning lock. Does every Benchmade come with that lock? I don't mean to be picking on Benchmade, but they seem to be in the lock business as much as the blade business. How about the Rolling Lock?

Point is, Millions of liner lock folders have been made, MILLIONS. This is the standard in the custom knife world now. Do they occasionally close, yes. As does every other type of lock.

If you cut yourself with a folder because the lock failed, that generally means that you were doing something you should not have been doing with the knife. After all how can a blade close on your fingers if you are cutting away from yourself with constant pressure on the blade....like the Cub Scouts teach.

Please don't bring up the beat the spine of the blade on the table to see if the lock fails. Unless you can tell me when, using a folding knife that would be used in the real world.

Cliff, no one beats up a knife better than you. Ask Mad Dog.

However, locks that are as much a marketing strategy as they are a "superior" lock.

Anonmymous machinst who could (if they chose to make a better custom folder than many of the world class makers today).

Don't really prove anything, do they. All I know is what I have done and seen while working in extreme situations with different knives.

I will give you that factory knives have come a long way in the last 15 years. Due in large part to their collaborations with custom knife makers.

However, they are not superior in any way, shape or form. Cliff, Ill ask you the question I ask every person who tells me that factory knives are equal or better than custom knives.

You are hanging by your balls from a limb. In order to save your balls you have to cut a rope. You have a custom knife in one pocket and a factory knife in the other pocket. You don't know which maker made the custom knife and you don't know which factory produced the factory knife. You only have time to reach for one. Which pocket do you go to.

I know what my answer is.



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Les Robertson
www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com
Custom Knife Entrepreneur
 
Les Robertson:

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">It was not a little bit of tip, it was about 1 1/2" worth of blade. That was not inferior blade geometry, that was an inferior knife.</font>

It is not just the geometry at the break point which is important, if the geometry is weaker out towards the tip a great flex will be induced and thus a greater deformation will be required further up to compensate for the distortion.

Not that I am arguing that the Randall has a stronger steel. In fact I would assume the opposite. They are spec'ed at a couple of points below the D2 Brends and are made from a lower carbon lower allow steel with no cryo. Everything points to it being a weaker steel - however for pretty much the same reason, tougher.

My point was simply that the geometry plays a significant role and it seems to me that the geometry of the Brend would play a significant role in the outcome, more probably than the steel for this particular test.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">You are correct though that the Brend is far superior to any Randall ever made.</font>

Never said that. Every knife has advantages and disadvantages. It is up to the user to decide based on the performance that they want in whatever area they want to decide which knife is overall a better choice. A forged O1 blade like the Randall should be able to take much more impact shock than the fully hardned D2 blade for example.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">As to those who can build better knives. Where are they? Why aren't they making knives?</font>

They are, just not what you would call customs. Check out the work done in small shops like Reeves, Busse, Strider. Do you really believe that the people they have working for them are the poorest craftsmen and as well that Reeves, Busse etc., have no skill themselves nor the ability to teach those working for them?

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"> The trick to building a custom knife is not just being able to do one function. It is having a certain level of expertise in several areas.</font>

Which cannot reach the same level as a team of skilled individuals optomized for the various individual aspects.



<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Please don't bring up the beat the spine of the blade on the table to see if the lock fails. Unless you can tell me when, using a folding knife that would be used in the real world.</font>

This has been covered many times, when a knife binds in thick material for one, or as a direct example pounding on the spine of a knife to split a piece of wood, a requirement listed by at least two well known individuals in the survival field.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">However, locks that are as much a marketing strategy as they are a "superior" lock.</font>

A more robust lock on a folder, much like a more robust knife in general, makes the knife usuable for a wider scope of work. This is obviously a functional benefit, not personally to you maybe, but obviously to some who want to use the knife in those ways.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">You are hanging by your balls from a limb. In order to save your balls you have to cut a rope. You have a custom knife in one pocket and a factory knife in the other pocket. You don't know which maker made the custom knife and you don't know which factory produced the factory knife. You only have time to reach for one. Which pocket do you go to.</font>

I don't chose my knives in a random manner, nor would I depend on them to do anything without an extensive evaluation before hand - that situation is meaningless.

-Cliff
 
Cliff,

Not one factory knife proponent has ever answered my question. It is not a meaningless question. It is posed to show that overall one construction method is better than the other.

The fact you did not answer the question. Well you answered by saying that is an absurd question. Keeps the non-answer rate at 100%.



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Les Robertson
www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com
Custom Knife Entrepreneur
 
Cliff: While I won't argue that there a re good factory knives out there, I will argue to the bitter end regarding your comments on the ability of an individual to make a superior knife. As a one-man shop, I am in COMPLETE control of EVERY aspect of EVERY knife. Thatin itself gives me the opportunity to produce superior quality, assuming of course that I have the skill and professionalism to execute. I do, and so do many other custom makers.
The fact you are perhaps missing about mass production is that there are production deadlines, more rigid schedules, etc.
If I want to sharpen a knife 6 times before it leaves my shop, I can do that. Factories cannot. In a factory, Heat treating is done in larger batches-perhaps hardness is tested as a sample from each lot, not 100% as a custom maker can.
And, I have the opportunity to charge a higher price for my work, which again gives me the opportunity to slow down, and get it right.
I am very familiar with how work gets done in a factory-The best person does not always do the job. There is not always enough time, etc, etc, etc.
So, if you're going to say that a Chevy is better than a Lamborghini, I'm going to have to disagree.

RJ Martin
 
Frankly, although I only agree with Cliff about 50% of the time, I am ASTONISHED that he would claim a production environment will produce folks more skilled at various aspects of knifemaking compared to the one man shop method. This is both objectively, and theoretically absurd.

The key difference is the idea of testing. Many custom makers will destructively test their knives in order to learn more about how effective their heat-treatment or edge geometry is actually working. Some makers send blades out to a specialist for heat-treating, I think that is a reasonable thing to do, particularly for stainless steels. But most custom makers (like those in the ABS) are Very concerned about perfecting all of their techniques.

Are you seriously claiming that someone grinding out blade after blade in a production mode will be a better blade grinder than a custom maker giving each blade individual attention? If you are, please show me the evidence of this. I have found Major grind defects on almost every production knife I have ever seen. I have seen the same flaws in custom knives, but almost always by someone relatively new to the business. I do not frequently buy such work. The fact that there are some poorly made custom knives does not discredit Les' argument. There are Zillions of crappy production knives. Finding a production knife made as well as Most custom knives is very rare indeed.

Folks working on production lines are not concerned about taking the time to get each blade 'right', they are concerned about maximizing the efficiency of their work, and quality control is some other guys problem. Is there really any question that quality control in a production operation is much more tolerant of error than the quality control exhibited by most successful custom knife makers?

Custom knife buyers are Much more discriminating than production knife buyers. A custom maker who is not concentrating on All aspects of his craft, taking the time to do everything as well as it can be done, and personally testing his product, will not survive very long as a custom knife maker. He might do very well working in a production factory.

I do not mean to completely dismiss production knives, but claiming that someone working in a production factory will have knife making skills surpassing custom knife makers is absurd. I doubt you could find any production knife made as well as the custom knives that Les Robertson sells. I will note that Les is Very picky and particular about the makers whose work he chooses to buy and sell.

There are some 'custom' knife makers who produce work that is shoddy even compared to production standards. But if they don't improve, they will no longer be a custom knife maker and may have to seek employment making knives in a production environment, or find an altogether different line of work.

Paracelsus
 
One last ironic point, you have made an issue in the past of defending a particular custom maker's work who is notorious for poor workmanship, hype, and excessive pricing. I still can't figure that out. You generally seem to seek to discredit the idea of custom knives being superior to production knives, but have actively defended a custom maker whose work (according to Many respected successful makers) does not pass muster. What is up with that?

I agree with you about the ABS however. Makers who strive to meet the criteria of that organization are working towards perfection and there is an independent assessment of the quality of their work. That is why I prefer knives made by ABS smiths; I know the maker knows what he is doing.
 
I make the best!
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Joking of course, but I do test each and every one that I make before shipping. I have a lot of woods experience to back up my designs and testing methods. Here is a picture of what I feel is as good as it gets for a "Survival Knife" 9" blade and parasite knife. Good combo for most any chore you might have in the woods. Last summer took a similar knife into the hills with Ron and Karen Hood for 8 days of chopping, hacking, dead Elk skinning, root digging and all around rough use. This is in A-2 which I prefer over all others at this time.
srtk.jpg
 
Les, here is the answer, I would look at my watch and if the seconds were between 1 and 30 I would chose my left pocket, otherwise my right. I don't think my chances would be any better either way. You seem to think that custom knives are of higher quality than production knives, and if you limit this to the knives you sell and compare them to say Spyderco or Benchmade I would agree with you rather strongly (in most aspects).

However, and this is a big however, there are lots more custom makers than those you represent. For instance in Nepal it is common to make khukuris to sell to tourists. These can be made by one individual and thus they quality for your defination of custom knife. They are however barely knives, and not in any way meant to be used. Same in Malyasia and lots of other places. Now there are quality custom blades to be found there as well, but a lot of junk ones too.

Furthermore I can walk out right now and take my ruler and grind a knife out of it, then sell it and call my self a professional knife maker and my ruler a custom knife. However it certainly would not be a better knife than any production knife, including the $0.50 made in taiwan blades.

You don't even need to get as silly as that example, the small shop outfits like Strider, Reeves and Busse also fall in your sweeping viewpoint of non-custom knives. It is simply beyond absurd to notion that all custom makers make folders better than a Sebenza and all custom fixed blades are better than those offered by Busse Combat.

R.J., first off, not all custom makers operate as you do, there are many operating under deadlines and can't take as much time as they would like on very single piece. As for having complete control over all aspects, this in only an advantage if you can do a better job than everyone working for you at each individual aspect. Obviously you hire people who you can trust to have the same high standards as you have so you can trust their QC. As for heat treat, I think that is a moot point as many custom makers use Bos as do small shop outfits like Strider so you can't claim any superiority for custom makers (in general) in that area.

My point is simply this and I will give an example. My grandfather used to do a lot of wood work, he would do finish carpentry as well as carvings. I sometimes worked with him (not as often as I should have in retrospect which I will regret) and because of the fact that I freed him up from some of the grunt work he had more free time to expand on his already significant abilities. He might spend this reading various magazines related to wood working or just doing far more detailed work on the pieces because of the free time. Now the pieces could not be called custom becuase I did various bits, but this in no way made them of lower quality.

If custom makers did hire people to work for them and thus made a small shop outfit they should be able to make better blades becuase of it. Should being the critical word, just because you can doesn't mean it won't happen. But there are examples of such.

Now in regard to testing, custom makers are at a very large disadvantage as they simply don't have the ability to test with the same freedom in mass quantities as small shop (or even better production companies can). It is no effort for a production shop to take 50 blades and run them through a test, or send out samples to a very wide range of people. Ask a custom maker to give up a dozen blades for evaluation on a regular basis and see what it does to his production ability.

In general I do not see a larger tendancy for custom makers to evaluate their blades, in fact I would say the opposite. This includes makers on your list Les, as several of them I have contacted and they have noted that they have done *no* testing on various materials but have sold blades made out of them.

Now I am *not* saying that no custom knife maker tests their product, I can name off at least a dozen that I have had personal experience with that do very comprehensive testing of their blades and know in detail how their blades will perform, and several that test every single piece that leaves their shop - no production knife can claim that, but neither can all custom makers.

And the fact remains, that even if a custom maker tested the very piece I bought - I am still going to verify the performance I need before I would depend on it. I would not expect anyone else to use untested equipment I loaned them either if they could readily evaluate it themselves as you cannot get the same level of security without blind faith in whoever did the testing and I don't think that is a good thing. And bottom line, no one can claim to give a *better* level of confidence in use as Busse Combat as they guarantee the performance of their blades 100%. There are custom makers who hold their work to similar standards, but you can't get better than 100%, and there are lots that don't reach this standard. For an obvious example see the recent thread on the ATS-34 45 RC hunter which the maker did not stand behind at all.

Paracelsus, name the maker and I would be able to answer your question.

-Cliff


[This message has been edited by Cliff Stamp (edited 05-01-2001).]
 
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