Who Makes The Best .....?

I do not think the choice Les proposes is meaningless or random (now edited out from above). Hypothetical - Yes. There is no doubt what my choice would be.

Cliff Wrote : I think it is obvious that you can in general get a better knife by going custom than production, but just because a knife is custom does not imply a higher standard of quality than production, some are, some are not. It just means one guy did it - that is all. Now if you include qualifications like a Master Smith, then yes that obviously implies very high quality standards.

(So as Para pointed out, we are not that opposed in this thread
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I agree strongly with Para, I know some of the guys at CRK and there are a couple that would be excellent makers on their own (there is one who I am considering placing an order with if he is willing), but superior might be a little strong. (My suspicions are that that the excellence may not carry on down the "line" every day in a production environment.

There are two knives being made for me now that illustrate the point. Both of these will be knives first, but one of them happens to be an art knife. The two people working on these pieces go in their shops when they feel like working on them; they are both "special ordered" and push the makers a little further than they were. I would rather have the knife a little later than have the maker working on them when their mind might be on something else going on. (Both happen to be Mastersmith stamp test daggers.) One is a 15 bar composite damascus. I know that the maker welded and cut around 12 billets for the blade and that "he got lucky and was satisfied" on the 4th billet that he forged and ground, I trust this guy, If he is "satisfied" I am going to be blown away
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. I am in no hurry to get either of them one has been put off for a year and it does not bother me at all. I trust the maker and that trust has been earned, by his abilities, recognition from his peers and contributions to the field.

Part of the enjoyment for me is knowing that they are enjoying making these knives, that atmosphere has to be nourished by both of you. You get phone calls while they are working on your knife, you are presented options that you did not think about when you first ordered the knife. In some cases you get the chance to scrounge up some special materials or get down to the nitty gritty of how that guard or ferrule will be made. If I have a knife embellished, I stay out of it other than materials. I definitely am not an artist.


Make mine from the maker who cares and has the ability, experience and desire to excell and grow in all aspects of knifemaking, from steel, to forging when applicable, to edge geometry, to heat treating, to handle making, to embellisment, to testing and I will not be able to find a factory knife out there that would come close to making me pick it in Les' hypothetical question.

At the same time, there are times when I have chosen to support a younger maker who is striving to achieve that level of excellence. Typically, but not exclusively, I find these makers are ABS members, Guild Members (Canadian, Australian, South African or US)(give me a break here I am pretty week in the European area, but I will get better
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, PKCA members or combinations of the above and they are putting a lot of time and energy into those organizations as well as knife making in general.

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" The real art of living is to keep alive the longing in human beings to become greater versions of themselves." Laurens Van der Post in memory of James Mattis

[This message has been edited by Gus Kalanzis (edited 05-01-2001).]
 
You know to whom I refer Cliff. Here is a clue, I have not seen him post here at BFC for about 6 months, but he has his own forum with his own groupies and his initials are L and G.

There, now I have given you a clue. That should help you, since some folks seem to think you need one.
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Just to erase any prejudicial thoughts that I might be perceived to have. I own 3 and use 2 knives by Chris Reeve and you can look up in the Shot Show 1999 archive to see who first sung the praises of the Busse production knives at BFC
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" The real art of living is to keep alive the longing in human beings to become greater versions of themselves." Laurens Van der Post in memory of James Mattis
 
I suppose that since different aspects of knifemaking require specialised expertise, a few highly expert specialists working together could produce a better knife than one man or woman working alone. Is anyone that good at everything? In fact, the greatest old japanese knives and swords follow precisely that logic. Polishing was usually entrusted to a master of that art, rather than the master smith, and the forging and polishing were actually done by teams [well, master and apprentice]under the very watchful eye of the masters. Presumably modern knives can be made in a small shop or by contracting out the heat-treating etc. But the proof is in the final product. Pride and control over the process of sole authorship are very significant factors, I should think. I wouldn't sneeze at Les's assessment of the Brend[or of any of Les's assessments]. If I were dangling from a branch etc I would grab for my Hayes rather than my Busse, as superb a performer as the Busses are. Maybe it's just my choice that if I die I'd prefer to die in style
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Obviously it would be tough to test Cliff's theory because the best knives involved are too expensive to test to destruction or failure. But he makes some strong points.
Nonetheless it seems to me that at some point the aesthetic rather than actual performance takes over, as it has with the legendary japanese blades [screams of outrage notwithstanding]. I'd love to think that the aesthetic always reflects superior performance, but it isn't always so.
 
I think HJK brings up a good point.

Tradtional Japanese swords are made by a team of people, each a master in his field. A polisher for example, will study and practice nothing but polishing for years and is thus very good at his job. I don't know if this fits in with the modern concept of custom or not, but the end result is very high level of craftsmanship.

The Japanese model is not easy to follow, they take their craft very seriously, with a religious reverance. Modern knife making factories do not have employees with this level of dedication. But then, few custom makers are so dedicated themselves.

I do not believe large scale production factories can come close to the standard of a skilled one man shop. However, one must admit many of the finest works are the result of a fine team. Certainly Holland & Holland, Lamborgini, and Rolex thinks so.

Some of the best things in the world are also made by a single artist, because the lone artist also specialize in a way. He specialize in his style.

I think the common point we can all agree on is that whatever method is used, the proof is in the pudding. If there is skill and pride in the craftmanship, there will be good work. When it is one craftman working alone, with his reputation on the line, it's easy to see that kind of pride at work. It's much harder to create an environment where a team of people can work with the same clearity of purpose. But it can be done.



[This message has been edited by tallwingedgoat (edited 05-01-2001).]
 
Gus, I strongly agree that if you actually influence the design you will get a better knife than any custom as the knife will get made so to best suit your needs. However that is not the defination that Les is using as a custom knife. If he was using it, and it is the defination I use, I would agree completly that custom is better than production.

HJK, and tallwingedgoat, yes, that is exactly the situation I am describing. A group of people who each have mastered a particular aspect who together craft a blade. And no, by the defination that Les uses that is not a custom blade as it is made by a handful of people including helpers.

-Cliff

[This message has been edited by Cliff Stamp (edited 05-01-2001).]
 
Jeez, a guy asks a simple question and you guys turn it into an argument. Well, I'll try to get back to the nature of the post.

Pointy!, I will tell you that I have actually been in no real situations where I had to beat a knife to death to spare my own life, but I can offer this. I am an avid outdoor activity guy. Hunting, hiking, mountain biking, canoeing, etc. Many activities that can get you into a "survival" type situation.

If I had my pick of knife that I would want with me if any of these situations turned foul, it would probably be this one.

Why? Why not. DDR can kick out a pretty good blade, so I hear tell. I'd just have him hack it out of some 52100 and call 'er good.

And if I never got myself into a situation where it had to save my skin, I wouldn't care... just LOOK at that baby. I'd be the most stylin' S.O.B. in the K.O.A.
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Sometimes I catch myself assuming that everybody knows their way around a pocket knife. Then I remember what the first three letters of "assume" are.
- James K. Mattis

[This message has been edited by Velitrius (edited 05-01-2001).]
 
Vel,

I agree with you, every time the word custom shows up on a thread here it brings out those who keep saying it is "my definition".

It is not my definition. It is that of the US Knifemakers Guild.

Cliff the methodology of putting together a knife as you describe is not viewed as a custom knife. Don't take my word for it, ask Chris Reeve. Why do you think that Randall Knives is a Associate Memeber and not a voting member. Because the knives are assembled as you suggest. This is a "bench made knife", Knife by committee or what ever you want to call it.

And so it goes!



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Les Robertson
www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com
Custom Knife Entrepreneur
 
Pointy, sorry. I actually didn't answer your question, did I?
For me, I don't want any doodads on my "survival knife". I just want the best knife I can get with the right design and materials for the expected job at hand. And the most efficient sheath to carry the knife and attach it where it has to be attached. I like to carry all my doodads seperately, like compass, sharpener, utility knife, matches, stove, sleeping bag, paddle etc. I don't want 'em in or dangling from my knife.
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A sharpener in the sheath a la Busse's cordura sheaths is OK but I actually prefer not. Call me picky. Some people really like the CRK hollow handle, and I'm told he's one of the few who can do that and still produce a decent knife, but that's not for me. But some matches etc in the knife might be a lifesaver - if somehow you wind up naked all alone except for your knife. Could happen, I suppose. For me, a knife is a knife, not a third rate pack. Reasonable minds can differ on that, I suppose.
I make an exception for the "parasite knife"
a la Rob Simonich. That is convenient and I have no doubt that the knife with or without parasite is superb. That's on my shopping list for the future. Way in the future, given how busy Mr. Simonich is. That gives you an idea of how highly regarded his work is. I have a talonite Vanguard Chinook from Les. His work is wonderful.
There's no one design or material that is perfect for every situation, which is why we all have so many knives - or so we tell ourselves
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My personal preference is talonite or stellite for high corrosion situations [like ocean kayaking or whitewater canoeing] but that material isn't the best for high impact use. For that I prefer a high carbon knife like a Busse Steelheart II, Natural Outlaw or BM ,if there's gonna be serious chopping or clearing. But my real preference would be a full custom instead of the Busse, and I got the Busses because I couldn't bear to beat up on my expensive customs. Now the Busses aren't cheap either
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Cliff, Les, Rob and just about everyone else is much more expert than I on the different metals and their benefits [if properly heat treated, subject to proper design etc etc]. Personally, I like 52100, at least the customs I have in that metal, for an excellent combination of strength[sorry Cliff], flexibility, ease of sharpening etc. Some people swear by D2. BG 42 isn't too bad, for a stainless. CPM 3V and 420v are supposed to be fantastic but I only have one small 420 and I can't in fairness extrapolate from that to a big knife's performance. I'd love to try 3v though. And more super metals/transmetals/alienmysterymetals are on the way...
Makers? So many to chose from. So little money
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Are you going for investment? Talk to Les;I know nothing about it. Are you looking for a user and pride of ownership? I think IMHO that as long as you are buying a quality knife within your budget [for using], and the better knives are all probably good enough, you should buy what feels good and tickles your fancy. That's the joy of being a knife knut. That's my $.02 [Canadian].
 
Rob-

I liked the big knife better before you filled in the little hole in the guard.

-w
 
Will, dont know what you mean? Always looking for constructive critisim however so please tell me!
 
Rob--In case you were taking me seriously, this is to confess I was being a smart ass.

I was struck by how closely the knife you posted looks like one of the new Busse Battle Mistress "E" models, hence the reference to the hole in the guard. When I saw that it was in A2, which was Busse's steel before he went to INFI, my mischievous side got the better of me. My apologies.

If you were playing 'possum, you reeled me in on this one. In any case, it is a beautiful and efficient design. Congratulations.

-w
 
For real looks a lot like a Busse. Not pointing a finger or anything. Just saying they look like twins.

As far as who makes the best. Get a Busse Combat dude. You won't be disapointed.
 
Well, just so you know I have been making that knife and handle combo longer than Blade Forums has been around, and much longer than the "E" models have been out. I guess great minds think alike!
 
Why do these topics always role into Custom vs production?

In any case, Nothing is indestructible, not a Brend and not a Busse, they all have limits, some are just higher than others, and I don't think you can get much higher limits than a Busse, but that is IMHO. You should know your knives limits as well as you should know your own limits.

"A man has got to know his limitations"
 
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Rob Simonich:
Well, just so you know I have been making that knife and handle combo longer than Blade Forums has been around, and much longer than the "E" models have been out. I guess great minds think alike! </font>
Click to expand...

Thanks, Rob...much classier than my post.

-w

 
You two are a couple of class acts. I'm honored to know you both. Thanks for the example of how communcations should work among adults.

[This message has been edited by GaKnife (edited 05-04-2001).]
 
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