Wholesalers suck.

There is no question that many dealers break the federal law about autos. That is a decision they make. Hopefully, they know what they are doing and why. For the OP, the way to stay legal is to buy your products from a U.S. supplier and sell them only in the state in which your business is located. Or, you can get a signed PO from a government agency in another state to ship to them. It isn't any more complicated than that.

I should mention that butterfly knives have the same Federal ban on importation. They do not have the same ban on interstate shipment, however. You can ship butterflies to individuals in other states.
 
Wow, very informative stuff guys :thumbup:

Let me see, log into admin controls.....check......remove small autos from site......double check :o

I had no idea the shipping of these autos was so serious, would using UPS change the outcome, or it's still illegal no matter what if it's crossing state lines?
 
J's Knives-N-More said:
Wow, very informative stuff guys :thumbup:

Let me see, log into admin controls.....check......remove small autos from site......double check :o

I had no idea the shipping of these autos was so serious, would using UPS change the outcome, or it's still illegal no matter what if it's crossing state lines?
Click to expand...

If my lawyer interprets the law correctly, you can't even travel to another state to deliver one personally. No interstate commerce in autos except to dealers or government agencies that issue a written purchase order. It's pretty clear. The law is written to do what is possible to criminalize autos without interfering with state laws.

Obviously, the law isn't enforced very often. The law enforcement agencies have bigger fish to fry, but, every now and then, something happens that gets the feds interested and people get arrested. I know it happened in 1999 to several dealers. The issue was Italian switchblades.

In my state, I can't even have autos in inventory. I've never sold them. Those that do are taking a risk if they send them out of state.

You can judge the severity of the risk for yourself. It is a federal felony. Probably not a serious one like terrorism but one just the same. You can guess what a prosecutor and judge would do about it for yourself. I believe the dealers that were arrested 10 years ago had their inventory seized and paid fines. I don't believe any of them went to trial.
 
J's Knives-N-More said:
would using UPS change the outcome, or it's still illegal no matter what if it's crossing state lines?
Click to expand...
Using UPS only avoids additional charges from the post office for using their system to ship prohibited items using the mail system (they take this quite seriously), state and federal statutes would still be applicable.
 
Karda said:
Using UPS only avoids additional charges from the post office for using their system to ship prohibited items using the mail system (they take this quite seriously), state and federal statutes would still be applicable.
Click to expand...

Knives are not prohibited by the Postal Service. There are no "additional charges."
 
Federal law prohibits shipment of automatic knives across state lines, with the following exceptions:

(1) to civilian or Armed Forces supply or procurement officers and employees of the Federal Government ordering, procuring, or purchasing such knives in connection with the activities of the Federal Government;
This means Military personnel may buy automatic knives through their procurement officers.

(2) to supply or procurement officers of the National Guard, the Air National guard, or militia of a State, Territory or the District of Columbia ordering, procuring, or purchasing such knives in connection with the activities of such organization;
This means that active National Guard members may buy automatic knives through their procurement officers.

(3) to supply or procurement officers or employees of the municipal government of the District of Columbia or of the government of any State or Territory, or any county, city or other political subdivision of a State or Territory;
This is where your Police and Fire Dept come in.

(4) to manufacturers of such knives or bona fide dealers therein in connection with any shipment made pursuant of an order from any person designated in paragraphs (1), (2), and (3).
Manufacturers and Dealers may buy them.

Police Officers and Armed Forces Personnel must fax a copy of their official identification material and government employees seeking to procure these items in their official capacity must enter the order on their government procurement forms.
This is for people falling into items 1,2 and 3.

I hope that helps in the explanation of the law.
 
Knife Outlet said:
Knives are not prohibited by the Postal Service. There are no "additional charges."
Click to expand...
I beg to differ, the mailing of knives thru USPS per se is not illegal or prohibited, but mailing automatics is. IF they catch you chances are they will charge you.

And i quote tom19176 here:

tom19176 said:
NEVER use the USPS to mail a switchblade as it is totally illegal even if you mailed it to the next county in your own state. That being said, if your state and county laws don't ban the sale or possession of switchblades than you would be fine. Use Fedx or UPS if you find an in state vendor and all else is legal.
A quick thought on the interstate commerce ban. The law implies the person violating the law is the one who introduces the knife into interstate commerce as merchandise. In most cases this would be the seller and not the buyer. I have a friend who wife is the head of the second biggest law firm in NYC and I have had her check on the application of this law a few times over the last 25 years that I have known her. It seems to be rarely enforced and when it was the seller was the one who was charged. that said it is always wise to obey the law totally. I did see several cases of the USPS charging persons with sending prohibited items in the mail. I am at a lost to see why the sellers of automatic knives still use the USPS to mail the knives when UPS has no restrictions and is not a federal agency. I guess they are just risk takers....
Click to expand...
 
That does help :thumbup:

So....I can order all the autos that I want, pay the tax for it, and keep it as a dealer - same perk goes for your brother which I'm sure is your perk :D
 
Knife outlet, here is the link to the Federal Law. Please scroll down to the Postal Law.

http://www.knife-expert.com/fedswitch.txt

If you clicked on the link I posted earlier in this thread you will see that Sal Glesser (Syderco) plead guilty to the Postal Law infraction and paid a fine in excess of $400,000 in fines and lost merchandise. If anyone can find the old owner of Crowley Cutlery, he was sentenced to three years in the Federal Pen ( US vs Crowley Cutlery - Ill- Cook County Federal court).

Karda, thanks for reading ! I am as big a knife collecotr as anyone here, but it is always best to know what the law is then act accordingly....
 
T Schloz said:
Do the Postal Service regulations also prohibit the mailing of balisongs?

Tom
Click to expand...
It would seem that they do for civilians or those not listed below.


(g) All knives having a blade which opens automatically (1) by
hand pressure applied to a button or other device in the handle of
the knife, or (2) by operation of inertia, gravity, or both, are
nonmailable and shall not be deposited in or carried by the mails
or delivered by any officer or employee of the Postal Service. Such
knives may be conveyed in the mails, under such regulations as the
Postal Service shall prescribe -
(1) to civilian or Armed Forces supply or procurement officers
and employees of the Federal Government ordering, procuring, or
purchasing such knives in connection with the activities of the
Federal Government;
(2) to supply or procurement officers of the National Guard,
the Air National Guard, or militia of a State ordering,
procuring, or purchasing such knives in connection with the
activities of such organizations;
(3) to supply or procurement officers or employees of any
State, or any political subdivision of a State or Territory,
ordering, procuring, or purchasing such knives in connection with
the activities of such government; and
(4) to manufacturers of such knives or bona fide dealers
therein in connection with any shipment made pursuant to an order
from any person designated in paragraphs (1), (2), and (3).
The Postal Service may require, as a condition of conveying any
such knife in the mails, that any person proposing to mail such
knife explain in writing to the satisfaction of the Postal Service
that the mailing of such knife will not be in violation of this
section.
 
2brothers said:
Federal law prohibits shipment of automatic knives across state lines, with the following exceptions:

(1) to civilian or Armed Forces supply or procurement officers and employees of the Federal Government ordering, procuring, or purchasing such knives in connection with the activities of the Federal Government;
This means Military personnel may buy automatic knives through their procurement officers.

(2) to supply or procurement officers of the National Guard, the Air National guard, or militia of a State, Territory or the District of Columbia ordering, procuring, or purchasing such knives in connection with the activities of such organization;
This means that active National Guard members may buy automatic knives through their procurement officers.

(3) to supply or procurement officers or employees of the municipal government of the District of Columbia or of the government of any State or Territory, or any county, city or other political subdivision of a State or Territory;
This is where your Police and Fire Dept come in.

(4) to manufacturers of such knives or bona fide dealers therein in connection with any shipment made pursuant of an order from any person designated in paragraphs (1), (2), and (3).
Manufacturers and Dealers may buy them.

Police Officers and Armed Forces Personnel must fax a copy of their official identification material and government employees seeking to procure these items in their official capacity must enter the order on their government procurement forms.
This is for people falling into items 1,2 and 3.

I hope that helps in the explanation of the law.
Click to expand...

Be careful about your comments in blue. If a government agency orders a switchblade and receives it legally, then the federal law is satisfied. That is the law we've been talking about. If a soldier or fireman or whomever buys it from that agency then the state and local laws would apply. You can't say that these people can buy it from their employer legally because it would depend on state and local laws. What a mess, huh?
 
Ok so not everyone clicked on my link, so here is the answer to the balisong questtion: Yes, that is what they went after Syderco for....Here is the Federal Gov't info on it:


OAKLAND - LAWFUEL - American Law Newswire - United States Attorney Scott N. Schools announced that Spyderco, Inc., a Colorado corporation, pleaded guilty and was sentenced today to mailing butterfly knives, which are nonmailable, to pay a $75,000 criminal fine, a $125 special assessment, and to forfeit all such knives seized by the United States Immigration and Customs Enforcement from its corporate offices in Golden, Colorado (estimated to be valued at over $400,000). The guilty plea and sentence is the result of an investigation by United States Immigration and Customs Enforcement ("ICE").

In pleading guilty, Spyderco admitted that from June 2005 through January 2007, it had mailed butterfly knives, after importing the knife components from Taipei, Taiwan, through the Port of San Francisco and the Port of Oakland, to Golden, Colorado. The U.S. Customs and Border Patrol had issued a ruling to Spyderco holding that these knives fit the definition of "switchblade knives" as an imported knife "with a blade which opens automatically by operation of inertia, gravity, or both" and were therefore not allowed into the United States pursuant to the Switchblade Knife Act, 15 U.S.C. §§ 1241-1245, and were further not to be mailed in the United States.

Spyderco agreed to issue a Notice of Recall on its internet site for these butterfly knives and to mail this recall notice to reasonably identifiable customers. Spyderco also agreed not to import, transport, distribute, manufacture, sell, introduce, or attempt to introduce into interstate commerce knives defined as switchblades under the Switchblade Knife Act, in violation of the law.

The sentence was handed down by U.S. Magistrate Judge Wayne D. Brazil following the corporate guilty plea to one violation of Title 18, United States Code, Section 1716(j)(1), a class A misdemeanor.

Maureen Bessette is the Assistant U.S. Attorney who prosecuted the case with the assistance of Cynthia Daniel. The prosecution is the result of a one year investigation by the United States Immigration and Customs Enforcement

For all you guys who think they are not watching or don't care look at the fact they spent ONE YEAR investiagting this!!!!!!
 
The Spyderco case was really about importation. The mailing thing was a pile-on. What it says is that butterfly parts are the same as butterfly knives in terms of the importation ban. Strange that they mailed butterflies. Every shipment I've ever received from Spyderco has been via UPS. I've never received a product from them by mail. They must have mailed something to a PO or APO Box.
 
They violated both laws, but they allowed them to plead out to the lower charge. Sal had wriiten a long response to a member on this site that was upset that he did not fight the charges. Sal explained that jail was threaten by the Feds, and this was a very stressful situation for him. He did the right thing by coming to an agreement. I have said before and will again, think of what you are doing and wheter or not you could live with the consequences if you are caught. I spent the bulk of my life in law enforcement, and many people feel they are above the law, or it is a BS law, so why worry about it. That is all well for you to think if it makes you sleep well at night, but if the day comes that they choose to enforce the law on you, then your world will come undone. The "add on" of the Postal law charge is standard as all charges will be added to what is presented to the DA.
I could not think of an easier case to make an arrest and procecute than a dealer who runs an ad selling switchblades online with and ad that tells you that your knife will be sent via the USPS with tracking info sent to you, and how he just got them in from Frank B in Italy ! He has handed all the evidence needed. He could be arrested for consiracy just for the ad! If a Fed ordered the knife ( acting as a non LEO to the seller), and got it delivered via USPS, then the case is as solid as can be....
 
That was an eye opener. I thought the problems at Spyderco were a result of importation.

Tom
 
tom19176 said:
They violated both laws, but they allowed them to plead out to the lower charge. Sal had wriiten a long response to a member on this site that was upset that he did not fight the charges. Sal explained that jail was threaten by the Feds, and this was a very stressful situation for him. He did the right thing by coming to an agreement. I have said before and will again, think of what you are doing and wheter or not you could live with the consequences if you are caught. I spent the bulk of my life in law enforcement, and many people feel they are above the law, or it is a BS law, so why worry about it. That is all well for you to think if it makes you sleep well at night, but if the day comes that they choose to enforce the law on you, then your world will come undone. The "add on" of the Postal law charge is standard as all charges will be added to what is presented to the DA.
I could not think of an easier case to make an arrest and procecute than a dealer who runs an ad selling switchblades online with and ad that tells you that your knife will be sent via the USPS with tracking info sent to you, and how he just got them in from Frank B in Italy ! He has handed all the evidence needed. He could be arrested for consiracy just for the ad! If a Fed ordered the knife ( acting as a non LEO to the seller), and got it delivered via USPS, then the case is as solid as can be....
Click to expand...

It is amazing, isn't it? There is a fellow who has been advertising switchblades in Guns Magazine for as long as I can remember. His ad is usually close to mine. Incidentally "acting as a non LEO" isn't an issue. It is illegal to ship autos across state lines to LEO's as well as to anybody else. A dealer can't ship one to an individual - period. The law is very clear.

It is true that the law is rarely enforced. But it isn't pleasant for anybody with whom it was enforced. No argument that the laws are ridiculous, but so are many of them. They are the laws nevertheless.
 
"Incidentally "acting as a non LEO" isn't an issue. It is illegal to ship autos across state lines to LEO's as well as to anybody else. A dealer can't ship one to an individual - period. The law is very clear"

I agree, but I stated that so I did not get the usual responses, but I must say that I am pleasantly surprised that those who responded to this thread are reading it and discussing the real law, and not what they would like it to be. As for the ads that go un punished, I don't get it either. In the mid 1990s there were about six dealers that were all charged for their ads in the Switchblade Newsletter ( I think I remember the name correctly), and Customs went after them from their Florida office. They all had to go to court in Fl and plead gulity and pay fines.
 
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