Why all the Opinel rave?

Rhinoknives1 said:
When I started reading about and making custom knives in 1996, back when most still relied on books & magazines out of paper for information and meeting and talking with other more experienced knife makers I found that Rope, Pine 2' x 4's and cardboard were the items used most often to test a knife design's steels and one of the ways to get an idea of an achieved hardness from a home brew heat treating..

These tests were developed by makers that may have been on a limited budget, without a RC hardness Tester or have an engineering degree or access to a Lab at a University and really didn't give a rats hiney about computer graphs, bar charts and the like.

What really mattered for the common man then and now is how does the edge hold up on a given task on a certain knife design with a given steel etc.

Not every hunting knife maker is able to bag two or three deer and see if they could process all of them without sharpening etc.
Cutting Manilla rope I was told by a gent at a hammer in was "Sorta Close" to Hide, Hair & Sinew so it gave a constant that you could use along with cardboard which is free and has clay in it so there was an abrasive to test.

There is always room for improvement of ALL testing methods no matter how papered the testing may be and results can be skewed for many reasons.
Ankerson does has a protocol that he follows and while of course not perfect, I have done similar testing on my knives and they will produce a result that is much more informative than it is entertaining.
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Thanks Laurence,

Yeah, cutting rope will tell you what you need to know pretty quick, cardboard takes a lot more media, but as you said it's free. :) :thumbup:

Rope is not easy to cut as you already know.
 
I look forward to the full review. As was mentioned, this was strictly an wear-resistance edge-retention test, and yes it favors high-carbide steels so long as they are stable at 15-dps. It is interesting that it has now been recommended a couple of times to thicken the apex-geometry of the Opinels (~20-dps) to increase stability (stiffness really) due to low hardness in the 'carbone' model. Jim may want to do this for the wood-work section of his review...

I respect these wear-tests for the assertion that they are consistent, namely repeatable even when blinded (though obviously Jim isn't blinded to every test).

Yes, coarse-edge has been shown via CATRA to increase wear-resistance in abrasive cutting. Buried in the testing thread, iirc Jim stopped the 'polished'-edge tests specifically because they did not highlight the differences between steels as clearly. In my own work, there are experiments I perform where I potentiate a response in order to highlight the difference between experimental conditions. It is using the proper tool for the job. I applaud Jim for adjusting his testing protocol in light of the reality. Testing these knives as if they were polished wood-chisels being used for rope cutting makes little sense. Testing polished edges for lateral strength (as Roman Landes does) as would be required in a wood-chisel makes sense, and he was indeed going for a PhD. Hardheart has been working the CATRA angle: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/930333-Some-CATRA-test-results

One can note that placement in the 'polished' categories correlates approximately with coarse-edge performance - steels aren't jumping around too much - and keep in mind that the protocol tests the edge only after every 20 cuts - not very precise - steels that are close together would not be easily differentiated in this type of use.

If anyone expected the Opinels to perform better in this test, I would ask Why? I would also point out how close INOX performed to VG-10. It'll be good to get those other steels mentioned (420HC, O1, 1095) onto the coarse-edge tests, but honestly they aren't optimized for this sort of work. These steels performed the worst of any so far tested, BUT they're still steel and have a thin cutting geometry and are low-cost and, for some, have a very classy look. And not too many people have mentioned major failures, just a preference for higher-quality knives (or rather the attributes they offer), so there is that. Poor on the love! But keep it real ;)
 
Rhinoknives1 said:
Not every hunting knife maker is able to bag two or three deer and see if they could process all of them without sharpening etc.
Cutting Manilla rope I was told by a gent at a hammer in was "Sorta Close" to Hide, Hair & Sinew so it gave a constant that you could use along with cardboard which is free and has clay in it so there was an abrasive to test.
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I find wild pigs are the best test medium for knives, from gutting to skinning, but deer, antelope and elk work well, too. Outside of hunting season, I guess manila works ok. Maybe better if you can dip the manila in blood and mud... Kind of moot for a Opinel, though, as it's really intended for preparing salami and cheese or pruning the grape vine, not caping a moose.
 
chiral.grolim said:
I look forward to the full review. As was mentioned, this was strictly an wear-resistance edge-retention test, and yes it favors high-carbide steels so long as they are stable at 15-dps. It is interesting that it has now been recommended a couple of times to thicken the apex-geometry of the Opinels (~20-dps) to increase stability (stiffness really) due to low hardness in the 'carbone' model. Jim may want to do this for the wood-work section of his review...

I respect these wear-tests for the assertion that they are consistent, namely repeatable even when blinded (though obviously Jim isn't blinded to every test).

Yes, coarse-edge has been shown via CATRA to increase wear-resistance in abrasive cutting. Buried in the testing thread, iirc Jim stopped the 'polished'-edge tests specifically because they did not highlight the differences between steels as clearly. In my own work, there are experiments I perform where I potentiate a response in order to highlight the difference between experimental conditions. It is using the proper tool for the job. I applaud Jim for adjusting his testing protocol in light of the reality. Testing these knives as if they were polished wood-chisels being used for rope cutting makes little sense. Testing polished edges for lateral strength (as Roman Landes does) as would be required in a wood-chisel makes sense, and he was indeed going for a PhD. Hardheart has been working the CATRA angle: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/930333-Some-CATRA-test-results

One can note that placement in the 'polished' categories correlates approximately with coarse-edge performance - steels aren't jumping around too much - and keep in mind that the protocol tests the edge only after every 20 cuts - not very precise - steels that are close together would not be easily differentiated in this type of use.

If anyone expected the Opinels to perform better in this test, I would ask Why? I would also point out how close INOX performed to VG-10. It'll be good to get those other steels mentioned (420HC, O1, 1095) onto the coarse-edge tests, but honestly they aren't optimized for this sort of work. These steels performed the worst of any so far tested, BUT they're still steel and have a thin cutting geometry and are low-cost and, for some, have a very classy look. And not too many people have mentioned major failures, just a preference for higher-quality knives (or rather the attributes they offer), so there is that. Poor on the love! But keep it real ;)
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When I was doing a lot more testing, mostly customs and some production blades I was running both polished and coarse edge and after awhile I released that the polished edge wasn't telling me what I really wanted to know while the coarse edges were as the differences really showed up clearly. So after awhile I stopped doing the polished edge testing completely as it really only showed a more general idea of what was happening rather than a more detailed version and that's what I really wanted. The coarse edge testing also lets me test a broader range of edge geometries as in thickness behind the edge because it is more accurate so people can really see the differences that blade geometry can really make.
 
guns_and_labs said:
I find wild pigs are the best test medium for knives, from gutting to skinning, but deer, antelope and elk work well, too. Outside of hunting season, I guess manila works ok. Maybe better if you can dip the manila in blood and mud... Kind of moot for a Opinel, though, as it's really intended for preparing salami and cheese or pruning the grape vine, not caping a moose.
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The experience the older knife maker was in parting to me was from 20-30 years plus before the Hog population explosion were you can and need to hunt and eradicate wild Hogs in all 50 states. LOL. I'm not a hunter myself and have only skinned a few snakes personally, so I have worked with several hunters & guides to design my few Hunters. Don't have any built currently..
I found that the clay in the cardboard seemed to represent dirt etc that would be encountered in skinning an animal and one thing that has always fascinated me is that the salt content of blood is 3% just like the ocean water that life sprang from.

To Get back ON TOPIC! To the OP.
Those inexpensive little French knives have been a favorite of many in France/western Europe for around 100 years for a EDC for simple tasks, Cheese, Fruit, Sausage meats, sampling at a farmers market. The funny thing is that I can get a really good idea of each posters age by their responses to the Opinel knives.

Long before McDonalds & Taco Bell etc almost everyone carried a small knife to feed themselves. Some were quite fancy and made of Sterling Silver before the advent of Stainless Steel.
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_fro...570.l1313&_nkw=Victorian+fruit+knife&_sacat=0 You needed a small knife to feed yourself on the go.

I prefer stainless steels but at the price these things are they are almost disposable. Opinel knives are certainly not tacticool Mall Ninja stuff, But their thin blades to cut rather well so I wouldn't want to get slashed at with one.
 
Rhinoknives1 said:
one thing that has always fascinated me is that the salt content of blood is 3% just like the ocean water that life sprang from.
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Off topic but the normal salt-concentration of human blood is ~0.6%, nowhere near the average oceanic salinity of 3.5%. Dude, lay off the potato chips ;)
 
My two cents. I bought a tiny Opinel, a #4, and started carrying it. It's lighter than my door key. It has ended up being my most used knife. The lack of a lock ring on Opinels under size 6 is a major flaw, IMO. The little knives cannot perform anything but very light cutting. However, the blade is extremely easy to keep shaving sharp and is the finest little knife I've ever used for trimming veggies in the kitchen and taking on small tasks. Though larger in the pocket, the #6 has a lock mechanism and is more than capable of performing nearly all duties I need done with a knife. The Opinels are the best slicers I've come across. As a garden knife, they are superior to the SAK Florist model.

Joe
 
Rhinoknives1 said:
always fascinated me is that the salt content of blood is 3% just like the ocean water that life sprang from.

To Get back ON TOPIC! To the OP.
Those inexpensive little French knives have been a favorite of many in France/western Europe for around 100 years for a EDC for simple tasks, Cheese, Fruit, Sausage meats, sampling at a farmers market. The funny thing is that I can get a really good idea of each posters age by their responses to the Opinel knives.
.
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'Course that might be the "old fart/grandpa knife vs whippersnapper/mall ninja knife" thing.

To speak from the old fart perspective I'll just say "Hey young'ns, I'm not into those kind of knives anymore but I'll certainly defend your right to carry. Just please behave around the rubes!".

And now back to our regularly scheduled programming.
 
Rhinoknives1 said:
I miss quoted myself if that's possible?
Salt water & Blood are very similar in composition. http://seashellsandsuch.com/articles/seawaterlikeblood.php

Bet you can't eat just one?
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Don't believe everything you read on the internet ;)
In the experiment, the dog was placed into hypovolemic-shock by draining much of its blood (~1/2) and then transfusing the animal with much diluted sea water (at 0.9%) as a volume and electrolyte replacement. The ensuing infection nearly killed the dog as well. Did you notice that they didn't mention the experiment wherein they did not dilute the sea water? We use sterile "Normal Saline" as well as other electrolyte solutions in medicine and cell culture all the time. Yes, our bodies are mostly water as a vehicle for the cellular processes ascribed as "life", utilizing elements of the natural resources that make up our environment. It is no more surprising to me that our bodies are mostly water on a water-rich planet than that we breath via oxygen and survive eating plants and animals ;) But whatever sparks people's interest!


Now, pics of Opinels bathed in salt-water or cutting potatoes to make chips? :)
 
chiral.grolim said:
Don't believe everything you read on the internet ;)
In the experiment, the dog was placed into hypovolemic-shock by draining much of its blood (~1/2) and then transfusing the animal with much diluted sea water (at 0.9%) as a volume and electrolyte replacement. The ensuing infection nearly killed the dog as well. Did you notice that they didn't mention the experiment wherein they did not dilute the sea water? We use sterile "Normal Saline" as well as other electrolyte solutions in medicine and cell culture all the time. Yes, our bodies are mostly water as a vehicle for the cellular processes ascribed as "life", utilizing elements of the natural resources that make up our environment. It is no more surprising to me that our bodies are mostly water on a water-rich planet than that we breath via oxygen and survive eating plants and animals ;) But whatever sparks people's interest!


Now, pics of Opinels bathed in salt-water or cutting potatoes to make chips? :)
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I felt sorry for the doggie. My point was the similarity of the different elements of the salt water and animal bloods.

I have what must be an no#1 or 2 Opinel in inventory. It has about an 7- 8" blade? I will find it and post some pics after I get back from my dentist. appointment
 
Ankerson said:
I am not doing it for a PHD research paper.... ;)

Never said it was perfect, and it's not, but it is repeatable using a proven method by hand none the less.
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The test is repeatable and proven in the same sense that the 1/4 mile is a repeatable and proven way to test car performance.

The problem is, speed in the 1/4 mile is just one of many variables for car performance. Similarly, the ability to cut rope repeatedly is just one of many variables of blade performance.

If you focus only on the 1/4 as your benchmark for car performance, you end up with a top fuel dragster. Cornering and handling are much harder qualities of car performance to repeatably and objectively measure. But the fact that cornering isn't easily quantified doesn't negate the fact that if you a dragster on a road course, a lowly stock Mazda Miata would run circles around it.

The top fuel dragster of rope cutters are the Boye Cobalt blade boat knives. The blade material is specifically chosen to win the rope cutting 1/4 mile.

The knives you've been testing to date are more like the funny cars and stock class. Putting mid-grade small grain steels like 12C27, 1095, 420HC and 440A is about as instructive as putting a Miata or Gulf GTI on a 1/4 mile track.

I'll just mention 2 types of cutting where dragster like rope cutting doesn't matter. The first is wood working. For wood working, you want the keenest edge possible. Fine grain steels give you that super fine edge and do respond to more polished edges by giving finer shavings. Mid-grade steels can be returned to this super fine edge quickly in a matter of seconds (literally) allowing a wood worker to continue to cut with high fidelity much more efficiently as she doesn't need to stop to spend minutes returning the blade to sharp. Wood working is the road course to your 1/4 mile. The handling is difficult to quantify but it shows itself in the type of knives (or cars) favored by people who work on wood (or race road courses). Mid-grade fine grain steels hardened in the 58-60Rc dominate for wood working knives. The 1/4 mile rope cutting test doesn't really shed light on this.

Second example is rough abusive cutting. Think batonning and chopping or cutting through material with embedded steel or metal work itself. The thing that kills many blades here is chipping or even breaking entirely. The rock star steels here are tougher, softer and less prone to chip or break. This is the rally racing of knife performance. I've got a buddy who spent his retirement money on a 500 hp Corvette. I joke with him that I'll race him in my Subaru Outback, so long as I pick the road and time. I'm picking a snow covered logging road in Maine. My Outback will win, despite the fact that his Corvette would smoke my car in the 1/4 mile.

I'm mildly interested in watching the results of your rope cutting in the same way that I enjoy watching reruns of Pinks. It *is* interesting. I just doesn't tell me much about things I care about in terms of blade performance, just like the 1/4 miles doesn't tell me about the things I care about in terms of car performance. The Opinel is a farming knife. In my experience, fine grained mid grade steels are a perfect match for rough work and good wood cutting performance. Their Inox feels very close to Schrade USA's old hard 1095. Their Carbone is softer for a reason. The Inox is like a good sports sedan. The Carbone is more like a Ford Ranger or Subaru Outback.


We can talk about overall KNIFE performance next if you want. Not only is the blade well suited for hard outside work, but the knife is too.

BTW, Chiral, I continue to think you should try a larger Opinel. I find that in a power hold, the power of the hand hold comes from the ring finger and pinkie, not the first and middle finger. If you pick an Opinel to fit your hand, you will see that the portion of handle that is under your ring finger and pinkie is oblong and ovalized in roughly the 2:1 ratio you discuss in your video. It's not as vertically oriented as others, obviously but the roundness also allows for other cutting holds too.
 
Ankerson said:
When I was doing a lot more testing, mostly customs and some production blades I was running both polished and coarse edge and after awhile I released that the polished edge wasn't telling me what I really wanted to know while the coarse edges were as the differences really showed up clearly. So after awhile I stopped doing the polished edge testing completely as it really only showed a more general idea of what was happening rather than a more detailed version and that's what I really wanted. The coarse edge testing also lets me test a broader range of edge geometries as in thickness behind the edge because it is more accurate so people can really see the differences that blade geometry can really make.
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Putting a course edge on a knife for rope cutting is like putting wide slicks on the back of car to run the quarter mile. The testing method (rope cutting or 1/4 mile) favors it.

It's not correct to say that a course edge gives better edge retention. That's like saying fat slicks give better grip.

It's more correct to say that a course edge gives better edge retention for rope cutting (or carta testing) just like fat slicks give better grip for running the 1/4 mile (but not a snowy rally circuit).
 
Yeah Pinnah. I am not anywhere near a steel expert and thus am happy for any assessments I see. It's all data I'll read with interest.

Still, the first thing I thought of was grain structure. I seem to like steels I can put a razor edge on and gravitate to steels like that in my price range. There are lots of variables, but having one of them tested is a good thing.
070612_martha_vmed_12p.grid-4x2.jpg

As far as price range goes I'm comfortable with all that. There's a thread near the top here in General right now about the OP's family grumbling about the cost of his knives. I pass no judgement on nobody, no-how. I just know that I spent a lot at first and now buy mostly rescue knives and play around cleaning them, etc, etc. It's all good...it's all good...it's all good.

Now Ankerson has done some testing and spent some time on all this. I may be in a situation someday where I need to carry a knife that will hold a coarser edge forever and be more along the lines of what he has reviewed so far. It does have some bearing on edge holding in general.

He really didn't trash the Opies. Hopefully we are gonna throw Paki gas station knives out the window and......what I would love to see would be USA Schrade steel reviewed.
 
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Dave,

I agree with you.

If I'm reading a review in Car & Driver on the current crop of AWD station wagons, I would expect to see a list of stats. One of them would be the 1/4 mile time. It would be one of the factors, but not *THE* factor. And in the context of evaluating different AWD station wagons, it would be relevant and informative.

If the reviews were for value EDC knives under $50, the rope cutting test would become relevant and informative. But in that price range, the steels would mostly be mid-grade steels and the comparisons would be more apples to apples.

I wouldn't bother reading a Car & Driver article that pitted the Audi Allroad and Volvo Cross-Country against the Dodge Challenger in the 1/4 mile. Well, maybe I would for grins, but it's not like there would be any surprise in the results.

To continue with the car analogy... a stock Opinel is like a stock old-school muscle car. Stock, fresh off the show room floor, it's OK but not stellar. If you want a chance to win in the local Friday night races, you are expected to roll up your sleeves, get your hands dirty and tweak, tune and modify to get great performance out of it. Modern $50 flippers are like, I dunno... like a Nissan Altima with a bigger motor in it. Goes real good off the show room floor and when you open the hood, you're faced with a wall of covers and sealed systems. You're expected to drive it more or less as is which is fine, because it goes real good.

A stock Opinel won't impress anybody who cares about the driving experience really. They're awfully crude out of the box. Their appeal is to people like you and me who actually enjoy the tuning and tweaking and modifying as a part of the experience.

I do hope Ankerson turns his attention to under $50 dollar knives as a group. The tests would be more interesting. But just like we would expect rear-wheel drive cars to dominate the 1/4 mile in any given price range, we would expect that value knives using large carbide steels like D2 or 440C (and its cheaper Chinese equivalents) will dominate. The 1/4 mile is interesting, but not a full blown car review.

Opinels also appeal to people who want reasonably rugged, lightweight, EDC single blade folders. That's a mouth full and roughly equivalent to saying "interested in a small sized 4WD pick up", or "AWD sport wagon". If you want to compare the Opinel to other knives of its kind, the review really needs to be expanded to consider all aspects of the knife, just like you need to consider all aspects of the cars, not just the 1/4 mile time. Owners of expensive Audis hate Subarus and dismiss them as "cheap". Shrug. This soon gets into the emotional landscape of purchasing.
 
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