Why are people making knives so Thick?

[jacobconroy75]

Well, what you find amusing and "completely wrong" stems from your anecdotal nonsense opinion, so feel free to do you, boo.

"We aren't pontificating", but yet, here you are, attempting to browbeat me into accepting your nonfactual opinion as fact, and that my opinion (backed by centuries of knife design) is "completely wrong". Ok, then.

Oh hey, so any ideas? Any idea on why our grandfathers did all the things that knifemaker talks about, but did it with old, thin-bladed small fixed blades, or even slipjoints? Huh, almost like people have been using knives for thousands of years before sharpened prybars became a thing thanks to marketing and idiot Youboob destruction videos. So crazy, amirite?

"Youboob" is the funniest thing I've read in a long time. I have no opinion on the thread in general...but had to give you props for that.

 

[David Mary]

could probably chop a tree down with that

If you can execute a repeated chopping motion with it for ten seconds I will be impressed. With you, not the knife.

 

[rodriguezryan14]

Ah whatever. From the sounds of it, you know more than someone who makes and heat treats knives. Lol. Typical. And I not once mentioned chipping!

Sure, but again, as I've stated. The reason why most knives are thicker than they need to be is almost entirely due to marketing, and customers who use knives as non-knife tools. The issue is that when these knives break, these idiot customers then try to blame the maker/manufacturer, not themselves for abusing a tool by using it as something it wasn't meant to be. If this wasn't the case, then that means that 90% of all knifemakers and manufacturers have slipped and hit their heads in the shower and made the collective decision to all start producing knives that make better wood-splitting implements than knives. Mass psychosis is no joke.

Secondly, I don't buy the posited theory from rodriguezryan14 whatsoever. So wait, let me see if I have this right. Modern supersteels are harder, tougher, and stronger than old steels....but we need to run 'em thicker because they're chippier? What? LOL Sounds to me like a heat-treat issue. In fact, a common refrain around here is that we wish these companies using these modern steels would take advantage of those advantages and run 'em thinner because the steels can take it.

Criminy. It's ok to want and enjoy thick knives, no one is telling anyone they aren't allowed to enjoy things. But it's a trend that is irritating for those of us who want a knife that actually cuts well. Incidentally, it should be noted that I've defended Medfords in the past, as they had a nice very slicey hollow-grind on their Praetorians, so even though it was a giant slab of D2, it still sliced very well. Any outdoors cutting tasks I do, I do with thinner knives, and have never had an issue, so the idea that we need thick blades is more or less absurd. My Dad was a deer hunter for something like 20 years, and broke down plenty of animals with his Buck 110. Odd, considering that we have a knifemaker here telling us we need thick knives in order to break down animals, when through my own direct observation, that's false.

But for YouBoob batoning and coked-out chipmunks like those two Dutch guys or JoeX, I could see how thick knives are preferred. They make better videos*.



* Also not a knife task.

 

[rodriguezryan14]

We

Uhhh....ok? I've gone along on my share of hunts and seen animals broken down with smaller, thin knives. A folding knife in a couple cases. Either your skills are poor, or you just like carrying a large thick knife. It's ok if that's the case. But this idea that a sharpened prybar is what's needed for outdoors activities is just false. You aren't the only one who's been using knives for many, many years, friend.

good for you, and them! I’m pretty sure I mentioned earlier that it’s my personal preference!!! It’s what I build for me!

 

[rodriguezryan14]

Uhhh....ok? I've gone along on my share of hunts and seen animals broken down with smaller, thin knives. A folding knife in a couple cases. Either your skills are poor, or you just like carrying a large thick knife. It's ok if that's the case. But this idea that a sharpened prybar is what's needed for outdoors activities is just false. You aren't the only one who's been using knives for many, many years, friend.

I’m also pretty sure that I mentioned my knives are ground well to cut! I wouldn’t say it’s a sharpened pry bar! And I never said I was the only one to use knives!! Lol. You seem to like to make a lot of weird assumptions! I said I spend a lot of time in the wilderness, and this is what I build for what I do. It’s my preference, and it does not hinder the performance one bit!! I’ve met plenty of people here that seem to know much more about knives than the people that make them and use them every day!!

 

[David Mary]

After making a few knives, I have come to the conclusion that stock thickness is only one of a few considerations when determining the suitability of a knife for a given task. If you asked me to make three knives for ____ purpose, and gave me three different stock thicknesses to work with, let's say, .093", .125", and .187", I could make three of the same design, and all three would be knives I would personally be happy to use for the given task. They would, however, be ground differently, and probably have different choices for handle material as well. But, like steel preferences, it will still be a balancing act between properties. To me, the choice of stock thickness comes down to a number of questions, including:

1. Where should the knife's center of gravity be, in relation to the task it is to perform?
   • Does it need to be front heavy for power chopping?
   • Very slightly handle heavy for agility without the tendency to fall out of the hand (eg Tacticals)?
   • Neutral (which is my preference for most EDC tasks)?
2. Is the knife required to slice, and if so, what are the characteristics and behaviors of said material?
   • Is it hard or soft?
   • Does it have a high or low coefficient of friction?
   • Does it need to cut into intact sheets or strips, or does it need to wedge, chip, or splinter apart?
3. Does the knife perform tasks that need lateral strength?
   • At the edge?
   • Overall cross section?

It's easy for someone to say that thin is just better, or that thick represents a lack of understanding, and while sometimes true, it's not always that simple. Some of these factors can be address not only by thickness, but also by blade height, overall length, type of grind, etc., but that's not to say that the choice of thicker stock is always or necessarily an invalid one.

 

[rodriguezryan14]

I agree with this completely. And build a lot of different knives in different thicknesses and different grinds for different purposes! I was simply stating, to that other individual, that I prefer thicker knives for my personal use! My boning knife is a high hardness, thin knife in magnucut, my small caper is z wear. And my bigger knives are usually tougher steel for their given purpose! The smaller knives stay in the pack, the heavier duty knife is always on my belt! It’s all a balancing act for the use of the knife! As knife makers, and users, we can make and design what works for our needs! Which is the cool part! And it’s always trial and error!

After making a few knives, I have come to the conclusion that stock thickness is only one of a few considerations when determining the suitability of a knife for a given task. If you asked me to make three knives for ____ purpose, and gave me three different stock thicknesses to work with, let's say, .093", .125", and .187", I could make three of the same design, and all three would be knives I would personally be happy to use for the given task. They would, however, be ground differently, and probably have different choices for handle material as well. But, like steel preferences, it will still be a balancing act between properties. To me, the choice of stock thickness comes down to a number of questions, including:

1. Where should the knife's center of gravity be, in relation to the task it is to perform?
   • Does it need to be front heavy for power chopping?
   • Very slightly handle heavy for agility without the tendency to fall out of the hand (eg Tacticals)?
2. Is the knife required to slice, and if so, what are the characteristics and behaviors of said material?
   • Is it hard or soft?
   • Does it have a high or low coefficient of friction?
   • Does it need to cut into intact sheets or strips, or does it need to edge, chip, or splinter apart?
3. Does the knife perform tasks that need lateral strength?
   • At the edge?
   • Overall cross section?

It's easy for someone to say that thin is just better, or that thick represents a lack of understanding, and while sometimes true, it's not always that simple. Some of these factors can be address not only by thickness, but also by blade height, overall length, type of grind, etc., but that's not to say that the choice of thicker stock is always or necessarily an invalid one.

 

[David Mary]

I made an carried my favorite EDC fixed blade, the Prevail, in the following thicknesses: .093", .110", .125", .138", .156", .188", and .25". And each thickness was set up a little differently to reflect the questions posed in my post above. There are variants of that knife now in the hands of users, and I received positive feedback about knives from each thickness. Some of those variants will be better at some tasks than the others, but each thickness range of Prevail is more than serviceable as a general purpose work/utility/EDC knife.

I am currently awaiting a batch of .187" back from Peter's. It includes a handful of Prevails, and once they get here, I am making one or two for my own use, and will be moving my current .125" serrated Prevail in 15N20 along to a new home at a reduced price. .187" is pretty thick for an EDC knife by many people's standards, but they have essentially a hollow handle to reduce weight (ie a large cutout in the otherwise full tang, a feature I first introduced in the model on the .25" AEB-L versions I made a couple years ago), and will be ground to under .010" behind the edge, with a very subtly convex full height grind. Most will not be able to distinguish it from a flat grind. They will be very slicey, but also have significant lateral strength for a knife their size and weight.

 

[David Mary]

As knife makers, and users, we can make and design what works for our needs!

Yes.

Which is the cool part!

Yes.

And it’s always trial and error!

No.

 

[Quiet]

Yes I do!! And those knives in those days, were simple carbon steels with an average rc of around 45 if even. So they were quite tough for what they were. Didn’t hold an edge well, but held up to wilderness tasks just fine. Now we have knives with rc numbers around 60 plus. More brittle steels that hold a much longer working edge. To offset the brittleness, they made the knives thicker! Most of my knives are around 58-60, and I prefer tougher steels! .180 is not very thick, but still thick enough to be durable with most outdoor tasks.

Today I learned that modern steels are all "more brittle" and the real reason why all knives are made thicker, is in order to offset this. Huh. There are a hundred phone calls to makers I need to go make, I'll be back later. They need to know about this, because rodriguezryan14 said so. LOL

Ah whatever. From the sounds of it, you know more than someone who makes and heat treats knives. Lol. Typical. And I not once mentioned chipping!

Just a question, try to follow along with my logic. When you start talking about "brittle".... what tends to happen to the edges of knives that are brittle?

 

[Quiet]

I’m also pretty sure that I mentioned my knives are ground well to cut! I wouldn’t say it’s a sharpened pry bar! And I never said I was the only one to use knives!! Lol. You seem to like to make a lot of weird assumptions! I said I spend a lot of time in the wilderness, and this is what I build for what I do. It’s my preference, and it does not hinder the performance one bit!! I’ve met plenty of people here that seem to know much more about knives than the people that make them and use them every day!!

All I've really learned from you in this thread is that your knives aren't very well made as cutting tools (by design), and so I plan to continue to spend my knife money budget elsewhere, as will anyone else who cares for their knives to be knives first, and thick-behind-the-edge choppers second! Additionally, you seem not to have a strong understanding of knife steels, something any knife maker I would do business with should have! Have a great day! LOL!!

 

[David Mary]

thick-behind-the-edge choppers

Personally not a fan of these. For the guys who want to routinely baton pieces of metal or chop cinder blocks, yeah okay (I have a hacksaw and a hammer for those jobs), but for chopping wood, I much prefer a tough steel that bites. Say, AEB-L or 8670 around 60 RC and .020" behind a 20° per side edge. In fact, my personal Barax machete in 15N20 is 1/8" stock, and starts just over .004” behind the edge at the heel, increasing to .016” at the tip. I use this mostly for processing wood for my stove and cutting down thistles in the pasture.

 

[rodriguezryan14]

All I've really learned from you in this thread is that your knives aren't very well made as cutting tools (by design), and so I plan to continue to spend my knife money budget elsewhere, as will anyone else who cares for their knives to be knives first, and thick-behind-the-edge choppers second! Additionally, you seem not to have a strong understanding of knife steels, something any knife maker I would do business with should have! Have a great day! LOL!!

 

[rodriguezryan14]

All I've really learned from you in this thread is that your knives aren't very well made as cutting tools (by design), and so I plan to continue to spend my knife money budget elsewhere, as will anyone else who cares for their knives to be knives first, and thick-behind-the-edge choppers second! Additionally, you seem not to have a strong understanding of knife steels, something any knife maker I would do business with should have! Have a great day! LOL!!

Well you wouldn’t know. Because you’ve never tried one. And I have plenty of happy customers out there. And like I said, I use my knives more in a month than you do in years!

 

[David Mary]

You're really not doing yourself any favors here rodriguezryan14

 

[Fir Na Tine]

 

[rodriguezryan14]

I don’t care. He started it!!

You're really not doing yourself any favors here rodriguezryan14

 

[Fir Na Tine]

I designed a knife that is 3/8” thick but it’s for a purpose.

 

[David Mary]

Well, good for you. Most people aren't hunters who are going out and processing big game every weekend.

According to the sense given in the actual words, this appears to be an acknowledgement of your experience as a hunter rodriguezryan14 , distinguishing you from his generalized comments, but you chose to see it in a sarcastic light, and type up storm at him. So no he really didn't.

 

[Quiet]

Like I said whatever. Just one example then I’m done. Most older knives were 1050 type steels, low rc. Now we have knives in 4v and others at 62 plus. Which is tougher? The 1050. But like I said bro. Whatever. Argue with yourself. I make, heat treat and test to destruction all my blades. I know what’s tough and what’s not! I do cut test, rope, animals, chop tests etc. but ya. You know more. Have at it! I’d like to see what you have made, what your heat treat experience is! Show us all. We’re curious!! A list of steel I use and heat treat. Zwear, ztuff, A8 mod, 15n20, 8670, L6, 3v, 4v, magnucut, aeb-l, s35vn, m4. I’m sure I’m missing a few. I have all my heat treats dialed in, I’ve memorized absolutely every austenitizing and tempering temperature, and I know what rc each will hit when I’m done. I’ve tested to destruction all these steels and dialed in the heat treat and edge geometry accordingly!! Now bro, you tell me what you have done! Tell me your heat treat experience, your grinding experience. I’ve used high and low tempers on these steels, I know what steels will cut through antler, 1/4 inch plate, which are brittle and what tempering protocol works best for each alloy! Which edge geometry will handle cutting stone, which edge geometry chips out on antler with different alloys!! Like I said tell me what tests you have performed! I’m all ears! I’d like to hear from the vast knowledge you seem to have! If you’ve done more testing and research into alloys and heat treat than I have, I’d be extremely impressed!! Till then, keep running your mouth. I don’t care! I’m done responding to you. I’ve shared what I use for what I do. And that’s all. Just my experience as an actual knife maker that heat treats his own blades. I started with a simple half ass forge, heat treating simple steel’s, and moved up to an actual oven and nice equipment to heat treat high alloy steel!!

You definitely seem like a perfectly sane and calm individual who definitely wouldn’t blow up at any customers if they had an issue with one of your knives, whom folks should feel comfortable giving money to.

Also, if your work is on display in that other thread, I don’t expect you’ll see many sales here. Anyway, have a great afternoon!