Why buy a handmade that is not really a made by hand?

Hi Bad Guy,

Using CRK was a poor choice for an example. CRK is not a custom knife. I realize for some it is confusing. Which is why I listed the example of the award the Sebenza.

Who are the other makers you are referring to?

It's good you bring this up. There are people who think that Randall, Busse and William Henry are also custom knives.

Unfortunately, I think most of the "dis-information" presented regarding the use of particular machines. Is done so by those who either do not understand what is involved. The others are generally those selling Factory and Semi-Production knives who are falsely promoting them as "Custom" knives.

There is no such thing as a hand made knife. As all knife makers use machines. The only difference is the quality, types and sophistications of those machines.

Many of those who oppose the use of a CNC or a laser cut part. Do so because it is interferring with their "bottom line".

How about those makers who send their knives out for heat treating?

I consistently recommend to makers that if they feel strongly about how they make their knives. Then they should list it in their advertising.

Ultimately, it is the consumers perogative to purchase whatever they like.
 
I use CRK as an example here because I have read in this thread that there are several makers that have there blades lazer cut and use CNC machines to cut out the "Labor Intensive" work. Yet they are still considered customs. I do not see the diffrence between someone like say "Bob Terzuola" who was mentioned in this thread earlier as a maker who has there blades lazercut and Chris Reeves. Can someone help explain this to me please? Thanks in advance
 
Here is a quote from CRK site. I honestly don't see what the difference is if other "custom makers" are using technology in the same way.


There has been much discussion over the differences in these three categories and we want to make it clear where our knives belong. Although all the knives that we offer now were, in the very early days of Chris Reeve Knives, considered custom knives, this is no longer true. The demand for our products has enabled us to change the way we make our knives and to make use of modern computer controlled equipment. We have been able to increase the number of knives we make, keep the quality high and the prices at a realistic level. What sets our knives in their own category of excellence is that every blade is free-hand ground, every folding knife is individually fitted, and every knife sharpened by hand. Our knives are not true production pieces, they are hand made individual pieces with limited room for custom work.
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I would also like to point out, I am in no way criticizing any makers for using whatever methods they choose. Being a knife maker take allot of talent regardless of the makers methods. I just feel that to use the phrase custom or handmade obvious doesn't mean what I thought it did before I read this thread. And I am striving to understand the distinction. So thanks to all of the education I am currently receiving
:)
 
That does help explain the classification. Thank you Les. I guess I just feel if the Blade is Lazer cut, the knife could be classified as a semi-custom. Thats my own personal opinion. It doesn't make a knife more or less desirable. But it would reflect the that there were steps in tradition knifemaking there were not preformed or preformed using high tech equipment.
 
Les, I'm sorry, I'm following along but you lost me,

Chris Reeve does not make his knives....Bob Terzuola does.
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I don't know what you mean by this.

Thanks
 
Originally posted by DaveH
Les, I'm sorry, I'm following along but you lost me,



I don't know what you mean by this.

Thanks
Click to expand...

By just reading that I can see how your left wondering DaveH and I think I know what you mean.

Previously in this thread, I asked whats the diffrence between CRK and a custom maker who has there blades lazer cut such as Bob Terzuola and Mr. Robertson was explaining that CRK aren't all made by Chris Reeves himself, but Bobs knives are only worked on by him for the most part. Does that help Dave?:)
 
Steve, if you are saying that once a maker has made a Bowie, that to classify as never making a pattern twice he/she can now never make another one no matter how much different it is than the last, then I guess that you are right, I am not going to be able to name makers that have not made two or more of the same pattern of knife.

Besides that, that was not even remotely what I was referring to in my original statement. When I stated that there are makers that don't like to make the same knife twice, I did not mean that they won't make more than one Bowie for example, but that they won't make the next Bowie the same as the last one or any other one they have ever made, so you will never get the same knife twice. There are many makers that have set models that have made dozens, if not hundreds of exactly the same knife. These knives will look just as much alike as any two Spydercos or Benchmades of the same model. There is nothing wrong with this. It is just that there are some makers that believe that every knife should be different and there are those that believe that working with a few set models works best. Two different methods of hopefully coming to the same end, a successful career making knives.

In the above paragraph I made the statement that there are makers that make set models that any two would look just as much alike as any two Spydercos or Benchmades. They are able to do this because because of the use of CAD and CNC to profile the parts. That way you don't even get the small variations in blade and handle shape that you will get when these computer assisted methods are not used. There are also makers that have set models that do not use CAD or CNC. These knives will exhibit the small differences that happen because it is impossible to make two knives exactly the same using the more widely incorporated knife making methods.

I would also like to point out that most of the makers that sell mainly a fixed group of models will make you a one-of custom as well. Just because they are known for certain models, do not be afraid to ask these makers for something special; they will usually be glad to oblige.
 
Hi Bad Guy,

For further clarification. When you have a blade laser cut, you end up with the same blank as if the knife was cut by a band saw.

The only difference is that the laser cut blank may be a little more exact.

The blades still have to be profiled, ground, heat treated and finished out.

The only difference between a laser cut blade and a band sawed blade. Is that the maker can get a little better blank and save you some money.

This is what I mean by some confusion. Some people are under the impression that these blades come profiled and are ready to heat treat. This is not the case.
 
Les, that just made it worse again for me. Let me see if I understand you.

Cutting by laser is more or less the same as cutting by bandsaw. To this I agree.

But if Bob in this case sends his blades out to be laser cut by someone else, then to me that is no different then having a helper do it, and hence it's only different in matter of degree to what CRK does.

I imagine we are on the same page, only differeing where to draw this imaginary line or definition.
 
Laser or water cut blades will only need the final touches applied to the profile. These ways of cutting the blade will add to the consistency the maker will get in the shape of his/her blades. A CNC machine being contolled by a CAD program can actually cut the bevels into a blade. The fitting, finishing and edge still will need to be done by hand.

Things done with the assistance of computers will have much better repeatable consistency. The variability of the specifications of the parts made in this manner will be held within very close tolerances. These are the distinct advantages offered by CAD and CNC. Once these opperations have been completed there is still much hand work that is needed to finish the knife.
 
Originally posted by DaveH

But if Bob in this case sends his blades out to be laser cut by someone else, then to me that is no different then having a helper do it, and hence it's only different in matter of degree to what CRK does.
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I agree with this completely. The only difference is that in Bob's case he does the final work on the knife himself and in the case of CRK someone in the shop does this, not Chris.

More and more makers that can afford to get the expensive machinery necessary are adopting many of the production methods being used by manufacturers. This is something that will become more prevalent in the future. Once again, this is not a bad thing, just progress.

In many ways I agree with those that say that progress is not necessarily a good thing.
 
I don't know this for a fact, but Im going to assume that most of you weren't into custom knives in the early 90's.

If you were you would realize that the custom knife market was in a very bad position. The excess spending of the 80's led to the the "dumping" of multi-thousand dollar knives.

A typical folder from a well known maker started at around $500. This was a 440C or ATS-34 blade, nickel silver bolster and a lock back.

Then this group of makers,you'll probably recognize the name(s):

Kit Carson
Pat Crawford
Allen Elishewitz
Ernie Emerson
Chris Reeve
Bob Terzuola

Who had been around for awhile started making affordable folders. They did this by incorporating new technologies that would allow custom knives to be made in batches. Instead of one at a time.

This inspired the "tactical knife" craze that started around 1994. These makers understood that the way to get new collectors into custom knives was to offer custom knives at an affordable price. Also, they were the ones who started to use Titanium on a regular basis.

The factories then picked up on this craze and took it one step further. They mass produced a lesser version of the "great knives". Introducing millions of potential knife buyers to custom knives...world wide.

Guys if it wasn't for the technology that many are bashing today. Blade forums wouldn't be here. As there would not be the custom knife market as we know it today.

Do you really think Kershaw would be here if it wasn't for Ken Onion.

What about Benchmade? If it wasn't for Crawford, Elishewitz, Emerson and Mel Pardue. It wouldn't be here as it is today.

How about CRKT with Carson, Lightfoot, Tighe, Ed Halligan (The KISS).

Most of today's knife factories exist because of their collaborations with the top tactical folder makers in the world.

The majority of the makers listed here, still produce custom tactical folders, most well under $600. Why can they do this. Because they are businessmen as well as knife makers. Because they are full time knife makers who's work has to support their families.

They aren't part-timers, working with a pension or some retirement program....except for the old fart Carson :D

You look at the next generation of world class tacitcal knife makers, like:

John W. Smith
RJ Martin
Darrel Ralph
Larry Chew
Mike Obenauf
Charles Marlow
Larry Davidson
Mike Snody
Trace Rinaldi

and others I can't think of right now. You don't think that they have learned the lessons.

For you purists out there who detest laser and water jet cutting. How do you feel about makers buying steel, scews, pins, pivot, washers and handle materials from other sources?

No one still has answered the question about makers who don't do their own heat treating.

Keith, yes you can set up a program to use a CNC to put some primary bevels into a blade. You can use a double disc grinder like the factories do and pump out a blade every 10 seconds.

Most makers will tell you that by the time the get the CNC programed they could have done the work themselves quicker.

Warrne Osborne made the Police Model. A tactical folder with the liner lock on top. He made two versions. One was done with laser cut parts, price $475. The second was one in which Warren did all the work, price $600. He marked the all hand made one differently. Other than that they looked identical.

Guess which one he sold the most of?

I bring this example up because this is the knife that really showed me that it is not the technology. It is the skill of the maker to produce the knife. All makers use tools. Some, like their tools, are just more sophisticed than others. Then again, some are just better businessmen.

As the market becomes increasingly competitive, as with all markets. It will be those who can adapt. Those who have the flexability to produce the knives that the collectors and users want. While at the same time providing themselves with a liveable salary that will be around for the long haul.

After all how many of you would have gotten into custom knives if your first knife whould have cost you $800 or more?

As opposed to the under $300 that Carson, Crawford, Elishewitz and Reeve offered in 1984.

Guys buy what you like....but try and think "Big Picture".

Oh for those of you who think those makers who use a laser cut parts and just put the parts together. I would challenge you to get those same parts and have it come out looking like a Terzuola for example. You will find, oddly enough, for some reason they don't look the same, they don't operate the same and they don't sell for the same money.

One last thing, as for having someone helping in the shop. In years gone by when artisians and craftsmen were all over the world, doing it the "good old fashioned way". They had these people in their shops called apprentice's. Most knife makers are very giving of their time and information to other fellow knifemakers. As such many a knife maker has gone to anothers and helped them with a knife or two...sometimes just to get the feel of a new machine.

Surely your not under the false belief that your favorite makers out there just woke up one morning and could make knives? If your going to discount makers who had help in the shop (while teaching other future knife makers). You would have a long list of very very famous makers who you would consider only one step away from a factory.

We would start with a couple of makers you have probably heard of:

Bob Loveless and Bill Moran.
 
edited to add Les you beat me to the post well said guy..


just to throw a hammer in I like a good debate:)
because I can get on ether end.
If you make a knife from a piece of O1 and most
of the suppliers carry
it precision ground, has this not been handled and worked
by a 2nd Hand, out of the shop? I grind my own 154CM
it's very time consuming an the end result ends up
exactly the same the laser cut SS leaves a air
hardened surface that
causes you to re profile it in many cases anyway..
how many makers cut their own screws or gold plate them ?
when one has something laser cut you send in the profile
to cut it from but this is your handy work.
but the o1 steel is for who ever wants to buy it.but
still handled by someone else :confused:
I heat treat my own blades both ss and the High carbons.
does this make a difference if you don't?
is it hand made if you buy your Damascus?
anybody's thoughts here please..
 
Les: You know, you got me thinking there about the apprentice stuff. I have never apprenticed in anyone's shop, and, I can only recall actually stepping into the shops of just 3 other makers:
Frank Centofante-When he lived in Florida-I spent 1 hour in his shop and he encouraged me to join the Guild
Jim Turcek (visited his shop 2 or 3 times back in the 80's,
and Tim Wright in his Sedona shop.

I never ran a machine in any of these maker's shops, just visited and got "the tour".

So, I may be one of the few makers out there who never apprenticed, anywhere.

And, as far as learning to heat treat-I spent 4 years at Rensselaer earning a Materials Engineering Degree.

CNC use? Yeah, bought the machine, taught myself how to program it over the course of a year, and called Darrel Ralph when I got stuck.

Designing? The greatest teacher I ever had, my Dad, who taught me more than I will ever know, without me knowing he was teaching me something.

So, you see, while I can, and do, use about all the technology available to me, my knives are still my own. The whole debate started not over the use of technology, but, because individuals didn't disclose their methods and shop practices completely and fully.
As this thread points out, customers don't oppose technology. But, everyone expects to be dealt with truthfully when they are investing in the maker's word as well as his work.Stay Sharp,

RJ Martin
 
RJ,
Sounds like our knifemaking careers are close to the same.
I've never apprenticed with another maker, not visited but a few other makers shops, taught myself heat treat, my son bought the CNC with no prior experience except on a 1951 Sharp kneemill.
We've did the high tech stuff, but for the last 6 years or so, it's been pretty low tech. That was my choice.
Getting ready to do the high tech stuff real soon :D
 
Oh for those of you who think those makers who use a laser cut parts and just put the parts together. I would challenge you to get those same parts and have it come out looking like a Terzuola for example.
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Les, As mentioned, I understand it takes great talent to turn out a quality knife regardless of the method the maker utilizes. I just feel that if the parts are machined and blades are laser cut. Then they should be considered Semi-Custom. Do I think this should effect the price tag?? Nahh, The consumers pretty much set the price. Think about it. If a maker turns out quality folders and charges $1500 for one. Either he sells them or lowers the price. Most makers will charge what they feel is fair for the quality of product they turn out regardless of the there methods and this is fair to me.

Personally I found myself surprised when reading this thread b/c I had no clue that some of the names mentioned above used techniques such as having there blades cut out. It doesn't really make me think more or less of them, it just makes me feel different about the ways the produce their knives.
 
This has been a thought provoking thread.

I believe the issue we are touching on is the age old, man vs. machine, in one word: "technology", and is it always a good thing?

To go a little further, what is preferable, a knife that is inferior in quality that has been made predominantly by the skill and effort of a human, and thus has the "human touch" if you will, or a knife of superior quality that was made entirely by machine and thus has no "humanity" and required no human skill and effort to produce?

Technology is great, we all know that, it helps us every day in all we do, but, let's take this to the extreme, what if, in the future, a custom knife maker can own a robot that he can easily program to build a complete "custom" knife of his design better than he can himself? Also, the robot can make 100 knives in the time it would take the maker to make one, and, of course, the knives are much less expensive than those made by the maker himself. So, yes, isnt technology wonderful, knives that are perfect every time, lots of them, and cheaper than ever. In fact, the robot could even be programmed to have slight variations in fit and finish to mimmic a human and thus, we even have the "human touch". Would you want those knives? Why not, they're the maker's design, theyre identical to his knives in materials and design, the only difference is that theyre superior in quality, function, and completely consistant knife to knife.

Well, i know what i would prefer, so, to those who have said: "i dont care if aliens made Kit's knives, id still want them", would you honestly prefer a Carson folder that was made entirely by a robot, or one made by Kit that might not be quite as perfect as the robot's knife, but was made by a human? (Assuming Kit is human) :)

The concept of a custom knife being made entirely by a very sophisticated robot or some type of machine may seem farfetched, but im just about certain that we will reach that point someday and this question will arise.
 
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