Why carry a large knife and an axe?

[IntheWoods]

I agree.

There are as many ways to survive as there is equipment marketed to survive.

I think we can all agree that some sort of blade is a basic necessity in a survival situation where one is likely to need a fire for signaling or warmth, build anything other than the most crude shelter, etc.

And we're probably in agreement that most knives, regardless of their construction can handle basic duties of this type, in a purely survival sense.

Some knives just do it easier, and with less effort than others. As well as perform other tasks that a 4" folder is lets just say, less than ideal.

I don't share the authors opinion that axes or hatchets are dangerous. People are dangerous, axes or hatchets are inanimate.

I've spent the past 30 years backpacking all over the country. And I rarely carried a large knife. It was doubtful I would need it. But then i carried my food, shelter and other basics on my back. My choice for that situation was a swiss army knife.

If the situation was different and I didn't have the luxury of a large backpack, with sleeping bag, food, tent, etc. I would have gladly traded the swiss knife for one more capable of the challenges I would have been facing.

At home, I possess all of the above.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

American "mountain men" got along pretty good in the Rockies and Basin with fairly thin (< 1/8") long knives plus one or more axe-type tools (axe, hand axe, hawk).

This is wilderness living though not wilderness survival which as pict noted recently is different. Where I live was settled a few generations ago, there are houses still being living in which were origionally built on crown land, cleared and farmed by settlers from overseas. These guys built houses and cleared land for farming, not something generally you plan for in a survival situation.

A lot of times people also don't pick optimal equipment, Cook for example goes into great detail about why double bitted axes are far superior to single bits in terms of performance, but notes irregardless they never replaced them, tradition is a hard thing to overcome. Locally people still use cotton gloves and many other things that would cause most survival experts great concern.

It also needs to be consider the skill and level of adaptation of those guys how many people are going to be willing to put in the time and effort to reach the level of navigation, hunting and general utility of those guys, or just be as physically capable. I see people complaining all the time about having to carry a large blade as if the 450-550 grams is massive, have you ever wore traditional heavy skin cold weather clothing.

Also consider things like for example local fisherman will not wear lifejackets on open water, it is considered a *very* unmanly thing to do. They are in the boats of course (only recently for legal reasons) but rarely are they used. There are a lot of reasons why people choose the gear they do, not all of them are sound, plus if you go back just a little bit they never had them anyway, but are they essential for open water survival or not?

In a book endorsed by a who's-who of survial training and SAR, "98.6," the author illustrates moras as the ideal survival knife. He's most familiar with the U.S. southwest.

Lundin however doesn't take the extreme approach that long blades have no value :

http://www.caliberdt.com/~bill/Cody2004/Cody2004_32.jpg

This is Cody in the first stage of making a primitive wooden weapon. Mears who also advocates a single bevel small blade and GB axe for bushcraft use a long jungle knife when he takes McGregor into honduras, what he does there would be very hard to do with a small blade or a felling axe.

I don't share the authors opinion that axes or hatchets are dangerous.

This is based on the arguement that a hatchet's short handle places the edge too close to the body so it is difficult to protect yourself from a glance and that it is much safer to work with a longer handle, plus you get extra power that way as well.

-Cliff

 

[Cobalt]

Pict, Jim, alco and a few others. Please remember trying to have a discussion with a brickheaded wall is impossile, they never listen or learn. Their way is the only way, NOT.

Bob

Right you are, Ken. Er, Bob. (Oops,too much MXC)

I only hope that the ones who are looking for legitimate, intelligent responses are capable of wading through the crap, and take something of value from this.

Jim

Sounds like your way is the only way. Seems like you guys are doing what you are whining about others on this forum doing to you. Someone recommends a big knife and YOU jump all over them acting like you are the authority.

In Argentina, the most popular tool in the country is a large camp knife. They have lots of forest where wood splitting and chopping is primary.

In Brazil the machete is first and foremost for obvious reasons.

Go almost anywhere in the world and look and see what most will carry on their belts in the woods. Large Blade !

Les Robertson (yes Banned for trollish behavior, yet knowledgeable none the less), always touted the Brend #2 with 8 inch blade length as being his ideal knife.

Jeff Randall (banning issues notwithstanding he is one very knowledgeable blade user) indicates that his favored knives are in the 7 inch to 10 inch category. He also indicates that you can make due with anything in a pinch. That's a true survivalist. In any case from what I have read of his in the past, 7 to 10 inch blades are his prefered range. He really seems to like his new Rat7 so that would make sense.

Ron Hood is another very knowledgeable blade user and survivalist. He also touts blades of the 7 to 9 inch variety. The Tops knives are just some of what he likes.

Chriss Janowski another noted high country survivalist has touted the Busse SH as doing everything that needs to be done out in the wilderness. That is a 7.5-8 inch blade.

Earl of Southesk, who travelled across Canada in 1859-60, the Quarterly quotes, "The Edmonton hunters always carry very strong and large knives for the purpose of cutting through branches when traversing the dense fir woods that cover a great part of the country; sme of them use extremely heavy ones, half knife, half axe- like a narrow sort of butchers cleaver with a point instead of a squared off end." Sounds like a large heavy 7 to 10 inch blade. This paragraph is from the Nov 2005 Tactical knives Frontier Favorite article. The article goes on to state that most of these types of knives were in the 8-10 inch size.

I could go on and on...

I am not saying that a knife is the only right tool to take with you, but could so many people be wrong and you guys be so right? If what you got works for you then so be it, but don't go acting all brickheaded when others tout the use of what they believe will work for them.

 

[Ghost93]

Hees a tid bit of infomation, Shennedoa National Park doesnt allow axes or saws in the backcounrty sice the only places for fires are in the places at the AT shelters on the trail. This is why when I thru hike in 07 Im carrying my SAK fieldmaster, BM RSK MK1, SRK, and maybe my BRKT NorhtStar. My bladeware will serve me fine (if i can find a stain jack along soon it will replace my SRK).

 

[skammer]

"There is no best design. There are only best designs for: for certain people, for certain jobs, for certain demands."

Agreed.

and there is better quality within those criteria.

Skam

 

[Cliff Stamp]

"The Edmonton hunters always carry very strong and large knives for the purpose of cutting through branches when traversing the dense fir woods that cover a great part of the country; sme of them use extremely heavy ones, half knife, half axe- like a narrow sort of butchers cleaver with a point instead of a squared off end."

They use billhooks and brush axes for that in some places, but more for land clearing, too awkward to actually travel with and the never caught on here.

These are essentially axes with knives attached to the end instead of an axe bit. A lot lighter than an axe but a lot heavier than a machete.

As an interesting note on durability and to the comments made about primary purpose, what does this sound like :

"It is used in place of bolt cutters, a cold chisel, or even a small froe."

This is how Leonard Lee describes a hacking knife in his book on sharpening, here it is just called a shop knife.

This has a fairly thick blade and edge and the primary purpose is not to be a fine cutting tool but a replacement for a bunch of other tools.

The idea of a robust blade which can do more than fine cutting isn't a new one and certainly wasn't evented by modern tactical knifemakers.

-Cliff

 

[Cobalt]

They use billhooks and brush axes for that in some places, but more for land clearing, too awkward to actually travel with and the never caught on here.

These are essentially axes with knives attached to the end instead of an axe bit. A lot lighter than an axe but a lot heavier than a machete.

As an interesting note on durability and to the comments made about primary purpose, what does this sound like :

"It is used in place of bolt cutters, a cold chisel, or even a small froe."

This is how Leonard Lee describes a hacking knife in his book on sharpening, here it is just called a shop knife.

This has a fairly thick blade and edge and the primary purpose is not to be a fine cutting tool but a replacement for a bunch of other tools.

The idea of a robust blade which can do more than fine cutting isn't a new one and certainly wasn't evented by modern tactical knifemakers.

-Cliff

I'd like to see a pic of a knife/Hatchet.

I guess the point it as some have stated...USE WHAT WORKS FOR YOU.

I have been on many forays where all I had was a couple of large kitchen knives. They acted the part of Machete, clever, axe, and eating utensil. I have used hatchets and they have done much for me as well. You can adapt to whatever is available, so IMO there is no perfect tool, but I have come to appreciate a tool that has a lot of cutting edge though

 

[Gossman Knives]

Jeff Randall (banning issues notwithstanding he is one very knowledgeable blade user) indicates that his favored knives are in the 7 inch to 10 inch category. He also indicates that you can make due with anything in a pinch. That's a true survivalist. In any case from what I have read of his in the past, 7 to 10 inch blades are his prefered range. He really seems to like his new Rat7 so that would make sense.

Ron Hood is another very knowledgeable blade user and survivalist. He also touts blades of the 7 to 9 inch variety. The Tops knives are just some of what he likes.

These two individuals are who I would listen to over anybody. They do this for a living. They have the hands on experience to back up what they say. They have been there and done that. There are alot of keyboard commandos out there who create an image of themselves on the internet that is pure bullshit.:jerkit: Seek out the real deal people if you need advice.
Scott

 

[Jim Craig]

Cobalt, go back and re-read my posts. I readily admit to carrying a large knife. I just disagree with Skammer, et al, saying a big blade is better & if you think otherwise, you don't know what you are talking about.
I don't give a rat's ass if people carry six bowies and thirty five axes into the bush. I know what works for me, and I understand the value of large and small knives.
My other beef is when headstrong arrogant people are able to influence newbies to buy into the myth that the only way to safely get by in the bush is with a big knife.
Please take the time to read the posts you are going to bash, before bashing same.

 

[Cobalt]

Cobalt, go back and re-read my posts. I readily admit to carrying a large knife. I just disagree with Skammer, et al, saying a big blade is better & if you think otherwise, you don't know what you are talking about.
I don't give a rat's ass if people carry six bowies and thirty five axes into the bush. I know what works for me, and I understand the value of large and small knives.
My other beef is when headstrong arrogant people are able to influence newbies to buy into the myth that the only way to safely get by in the bush is with a big knife.
Please take the time to read the posts you are going to bash, before bashing same.

Sorry, if I misunderstood your posting. I was under the impression that blades were a nono. I will reread your posts better. :thumbup:

Big blades aren't better by any means, but they are a worthy tool. we agree then I think. besides when you really ned it, chances are you will only have something small on you.

 

[OmegaA]

Cannot say for other people. I try to take as little number of things as possible. In fact, because I usually use meth stove for cooking, knives do not play almost any role while I am camping.

 

[alco141]

omega,
i understadn and have done both the minimal impact type of camping that you are practicing, and the make your own cqmp from what is available. in alaska iwe used stoves and tents, in wyoming we had wood burning sheepherders stoves and cut wood for them. so depending on what you are doing what tools you would need. then again if you are 4 days in and get hit with a blizzard on a late season elk hunt you might want to have more than your gas stove with you. been there, done that , a axe and saw are pretty handy to get through the ice to water for the stock, and to make firewood for the stove.

alex

 

[crossada]

there is always more than one way to do things fellas, for instance have you ever run into the guy who says all he needs to butcher his deer is a 3 blade stockman and laughs at the guy who bought a butchering kit with various blades and saws. both will work just in a different way. same goes for blades used in camping and survival.

i think most of us go into the woods for enjoyment and like to carry tools that we enjoy to use such as a big stout survival knife with micarta slabs and kydex sheath or a small thin puukko with polished blade and wood handle backed up with a traditional hatchet

we can argue these points til judgment day and no one will ever win!

 

[LSkylizard]

...we can argue these points til judgment day and no one will ever win!

The question then is...does there really need to be an argument or debate? Can no-one simply say, "use item X because in my experience it works well and I found it does YYY very well"?

Some seem to believe they are just right and through argument and harassment they can convert you. I guess I just must not want to learn. Because I personally have rarely found benefit on this forum to all the bashing. It has just increased my personal crack usage...I'm hitting the pipe hard cause maybe I can understand some of this great wisdom if I can experience the imaginary hardships others have prepared for with their "airlift quivers"! I think I should have learned how to use ignore a long time ago or at least as soon as I read the following excerpt:

...Lots of information comes out of web based discussions...you can have exchanges ...where you tell them directly they are wrong or disagree with them ...you just hash out both sides of the arguement and figure out what is causing the difference in perspective, some times it goes to email, some times it runs on the web. I have done it ...It is productive if the participants want to learn, it isn't otherwise. It is fairly easy to spot the difference and that is what ignore lists and filters are for...

I try to get an opinion of peoples experience on a topic and what works for them. I ask a question. Can no-one simply say, "use item X because in my experience it works well and I found it does YYY very well"? I am always surprised individuals even take the time to answer. Why? Because, in no time, a certain handful of individuals jump out and say:

...You must have 28 knives, 4 axes, a crowbar, and alot of vasoline for the "deliverance" experience. I know that... I have proven in my lab that everyone else answering your question is wrong. There is only one way to do this. You must do it this way and with these knives. Your knife must be guaranteed. Your vaseline must be name brand...otherwise you will die with chapped but cheeks so don't leave your living room

Then the thread spirals out to jupiter with people trying to answer the question and duck from the mud slinging. In the end, the slingers then talk about how their adversarial approach and all the arguing was so importent in teaching/educating and enriching the wilderness survival experience.

I like these quotes:

...I doubt many would take all that stuff. Especially if they have any experience travelling with heavy loaded packs. Who really wants the extra weight? ...most proficient outdoorsmen take what is useful, but not extraneous knowing how to use what they have if the need presents itself.

Better to carry the extra weight in water purification, shelter, food & food prep, fire ignition, or comfort...

...Stop trying to fight with everyone, and listen. You do not know everything, though you certainly seem to have an opinion on everything...I cannot even imagine the benefit to digging snow with a knife. It's like bailing a boat out with the paddle rather than a bucket.
...Everytime someone has an opinion that is not geared toward a big honking chopper, two or three certain people feel the need to shed their dim light and contradict the contributor's opinion.
Discussion is not debate. Arguing is not learning.

...do not let Cliff suck you in, because he does not know a damn thing about survival. His pontificating posts are so way off it's ridiculous, and creates a very low signal-to-noise ratio. Those who keep hammering ...lack the knowledge and skill to adjust technique as said, and their one-track thinking and limitations are the only things they reveal to us...

Now where did that pipe go...damn it women, don't take that, it's my last rock!!!

 

[Thomas Linton]

. . .
I never said you need a long blade, I just said it has its uses, such blades are common the world over, parangs, goloks, machetes, bolos, bill hooks, khukuris, leuko, almost every culture has time in various forms, they are common brush tools and not directly replaced by small blade + axe.

-Cliff

As a person who rarely backpacks with any knife longer than 4-5", I ask if anyone really has a problem with that statement.

At the risk of being told I know "nothing," as several members of this forum have been told, suspect that the "always" crowd is as wrong as the "never" crowd.

 

[perksy]

Use what works for you I recon!!! I like medium to large blades, but that is me. I also use axes when I need to, but when out and about I am not going to carry one around, at least with my 7.5" blade camp tramp I can handle most things that come my way.

People need to calm down a little, just use what you are comfortable with!!

 

[Ebbtide]

As I see it...
IMNSHO...
The problem with each and every "survival" scenerio is just that...
it is a scenerio.
If the scenerio doesn't fit someone's 'doctrine' then the scenerio is modified or molded to fit said doctrine.
"I'd use tool A if I needed to build a shelter"
"Tool A? What if there wasn't any blahblah to use it on? Tool B could use the yaddayadda"
"Well if there isn't any yaddayadda then you ....."
Or to appear right, one could quote a sentence out of a paragraph, and use that quote out of context. Answer the quote instead of the thought.

On and on, round and round.
No learning takes place.
It is debate for the sake of debate.
(Some would say argueing a point.)

There was a quote from Witchhunter that said

...we can argue these points til judgment day and no one will ever win!

We aren't here to win.
Win the debate, win the arguement or win over anyone to our doctrine.
There is no winning.
Learning isn't about winning.
Educating isn't about winning.

There is plenty of losing going on though.
The forum loses integrity.
The folks that come here to learn (like me) lose.
And the forum loses the real teachers.
There were a bunch of big names mentioned in this or the other thread, Randal, Davenport etc.
Do they post here?
Did they?

 

[Cliff Stamp]

I just disagree with Skammer, et al, saying a big blade is better ...

There is disagreement and then there are personal ad hominem rants. Yes Skammar has made fairly strong statements about what knife has to be able to do for it to be a "survival" knife.

Chris Janowsky has made the exact same type of statements, and specifically notes that a fixed blade wilderness survival knife should be large and heavy enough to replace a hatchet, dig, and hold a sharp edge while cutting metals.

Now all of the above rants about people not knowing anything obviously should apply to Janosky. Otherwise you are not actually discussing the facts but simply trying to pick a fight with an individual.

This thread was about the value of carrying a long knife in addition to a small blade or axe, no one proposed a long knife is the complete kit of a "survivalist" except by individuals wanting a straw man to attack.

You can agree with those individuals or not, I don't agree with Janosky's defination, I would go so far as to not even think the defination is meaningful because he doesn't define the enviroment.

However I would not think it be overly useful to say he doesn't know anything about survivial, I would just explain my point of view to him and see if I could not engage in a dialogue.

I have done so with people who make such statements and often it comes down to them picking a worst case senario blade, or a blade made for an introduction piece, or any other of a dozen reasons why such a viewpoint can be valid.

It isn't where I would start off, but I can appreciate why someone else like Davenport will say something like the Busse Steel Heart is the fixed blade by which all others should be judged for wilderness survival (direct quote from one of his books).

Cobalt :

http://www.geocities.com/siegleknives/knax_2.JPG

Many Japanese tools have very much like some kind of knife/axe hybrid, some are more knife like and some more axe like. There is a nice shot of one in the recent Mears thread.

-Cliff

 

[skammer]

As a person who rarely backpacks with any knife longer than 4-5", I ask if anyone really has a problem with that statement.

I too rarely "backpack" with a blade longer than 3 inches.

If people understood basic reading comprehension they would know why and understand my personal large blade philosophy.

Skam

 

[Thomas Linton]

I too rarely "backpack" with a blade longer than 3 inches.

If people understood basic reading comprehension they would know why and understand my personal large blade philosophy.

Skam

Apparently I need to clarify that the word "statement" in my post to which Skammer reacts refers to the quoted statement by Cliff Stamp.

I refer to backpacking because I am, unlike Skammer, not a current SAR member and am most likely to meet a wilderness survival situation while backpacking.