Why do people knock 440C so readily???

[MSgt]

I actually like AUS 8 as well.

 

[bubblewhip]

Crucible says 440C is basically the same as D2 in characteristics.

 

[Gator97]

knarfeng voices a strong point in that geometry actually is more important than alloy when the actual cutting takes place

I am not quite sure I understand that argument in the context of the steel vs. steel.
For one, I do not understand why that argument(correct geometry) has to/can/must be applied only to 440C knives

I don't think Knarfeng will argue that with the same blade geometry and edge thickness CPM 10V or ZDp-189 would've performed better than Victorinox he referred to.

That's what is boils down to. The statement "geometry is more important than the steel" is true in itself, but it can't be used when comparing steel to another steel. Basically, for whatever reason some posters imply that for some inexplicable reason modern or high end alloys have to come with incorrect geometry for the job... For for the same inexplicable reason 440C or some other good old steel will always be perfect edge and geometry...
If that is a case, someone screwed up with the knife, that's all. It doesn't mean the steel is bad.

In fact, given that Vic. example Knarfeng brought up, assuming it had 440C class steel, I could have a knife made of a better steel, at much higher hardness, with either a lot thinner blade and edge, lasting at least as long as Vic. but cutting few times better, or with the same blade and edge thickness and then it'd last much longer, or something in between.

At least to me, that's what old vs. new steels are about.

 

[hardheart]

A fella named Roman Landes said it best, "Geometry cuts." Having the right geometry is more important than having the best steel

knarfeng voices a strong point in that geometry actually is more important than alloy when the actual cutting takes place. dennis

Landes is actually pretty big on alloys because their choice, and the method of heat treat, determine whether of not you can use the geometry that cuts best. He's not very big on 440C, D2, or ledeburitic steels in general because their carbides are far too large. http://hypefreeblades.com/files/schneiden.pdf

 

[theonew]

Wrong geometry for cutting cardboard.
story:
My daughter's senior class raised money for their senior trip by working in a food stand at the local stadium for a half dozen or so games. Parents helped because the stand sold beer. No knives allowed at the stadium, but we found we needed a knife to open all the cartons. After the first outing, I made it a habit to slip a Vic Classic into my pocket. Security never caught it and we used the begunkus out of that Vic each game. Opened dozens of boxes, opened heavy plastic. At the end of each 12-hour outing, it was still cutting. That thin little blade was all we needed. And a few strokes on a stone the next day were all I needed to be ready to go again. (And Dad was a hero.)

A fella named Roman Landes said it best, "Geometry cuts." Having the right geometry is more important than having the best steel

You probably didn't even need to resharpen the Vic Classic to continue opening cartons and if opening cartons was all I used my EDC knife for that would probably be just fine. But I can't imagine using that same blade to cut a bunch of CAT 5 cable, cut a hole through sheet rock to run some cable, trim some thick plastic around a computer case drive bay, efficiently peel a mango for lunch and whittle an Osage Orange branch in the park at night for my dog. Sure geometry cuts, which is why I spend a good deal of time experimenting with the edge geometry of my knives to achieve a desirable balance between cutting efficiency and durability. But geometry, as you yourself so often like to point out about steel choice, is nevertheless a compromise.

The right geometry is not more important than having the best steel, but rather being able to effectively use geometry for a greater variety of tasks is contingent upon the steel that is used.

 

[Yorkshire Boy]

So can anybody define what the "right geometry" is for 440C?

 

[DennisStrickland]

perhaps i let my sematics & declarations cbscure the principle i was trying to convey. of course a zdp at 15 degrees will outcut a 440a at the same bevel. buck did extensive tests sometime back & demostrated that very marginal alloys at a fine bevel would greatly out perform super alloys when slicing if the super steels had obtruse angles. years back ka-bar issued 2 kraton handled skinners in 440a with a very thin high bevel. my tests on cardboard showed these edges to outcut by a huge margin my knives in d2, 06 [at 60 r.r.] s30 & vg10. the nexas is a thin well executed bevel of marginal alloy will outperform super steels on slicing " if the superior steels have ineffiecent bevels".dennis. no one is stating that if bevels are similiar that the marginal alloy will outperform a superior metal.

 

[Planterz]

A fella named Roman Landes said it best, "Geometry cuts." Having the right geometry is more important than having the best steel

Well, yes, to a point. But a blade that cuts well with 420J will cut just as well with CPM S125V, one just lasts longer. I'll readily agree that a blade made with unobtanium supersteel isn't worth jack if the geometry sucks. However geometry is just half of the equation. The basic SAK profile (regardless of size) has been and always will be a great profile for general use, but I would happily pay out the nose if they offered premium steel versions (VG-10 please).

 

[Gator97]

So can anybody define what the "right geometry" is for 440C?

As of today, right geometry is meaningless without specifying the intended work.
But, in general, based on physics, thinner blades and shallower edge angles make better cutters.
The only limit is the steel properties. Strength, toughness, etc. So, because of that you have to grind thicker edges for hard work, make thicker blades to withstand batonning, prying and such.

If you had an alloy with infinite, or very high levels of strength and toughness, you could have the same full flat ground blade with very low edge angle, 1 or even lower per side.
Obviously, it'd be very boring if every knife looked the same, so all sorts of designs would still be around

 

[jfive]

if they offered premium steel versions (VG-10 please).

that would be awesome :thumbup:

 

[knarfeng]

I don't want to generate a wall of text, so excuse random comments.

Sorry I brought up the geometry thing. It was off topic. As theonew pointed out, I have a soap box that I bring along with me in case I get a chance to preach about it, and I'll preach at the drop of a hat. Any hat. "Right Geometry" is actually specific to both task and alloy. You can use a less tough steel for chopping if you make the edge thick. But in general Gator is right and thinner is better for most slicing and push-cutting tasks. I tend to use more obtuse angles (20° per side) for my EDCs, because, like theonew, my everyday tasks for a knife are likely to involve cutting or trimming hard plastic or other materials that are likely to deform a thin edge.

All that being said, and to get back on track with the thread:
If a knife I am considering for EDC is offered in actual US 440C, that's fine with me. I find that 440C holds up to what I need a knife to do when I work in the back yard or on a construction work day at church. When I used to hunt, 440C worked good for that too.

 

[A.P.F.]

FWIW, I found 20 degrees per side works great on 440C.