Why do people knock 440C so readily???

[knarfeng]

I use the aluminum oxide stones of a Sharpmaker.


Edited to add: that's what I currently use most often.
I have used a Norton India stone in the past. I sometimes still do.

 

[chippedblade]

well we are waiting for that some one to chime in on that sub-zero quenching.hehe

 

[hardheart]

cold & cryo treatments convert retained austenite to untempered martensite, and also eta carbides precipitate

 

[chippedblade]

internet lag got me .dang

 

[Facebacon]

what i dont like is knives with 440c and vg10 prices

 

[EDDAKA]

So how about taking famous or not...knife makers who use 440C in their blades and talking about them, the plus points and failings....

I'll start with one that I'm interested in, Entrek...good?..

How about Randall, or Boker?

Are these good working outdoor blades?

Wood, meat, rain and high humidity tests...not cardboard cutting tests.

Hey Yorkshire,

Seen ya mention the forester a couple times. I actually own one and i plan on doing a review on it very soon, but I'll give you a few thoughts.

I love my forester. I really do. Entrek knives have an incredible heat treat. Mr. Ennis sharpens them to "laser beam" level, and it was and is one of my sharpest knives, still is.

His scandi grounds are zero bevel, and they are incredibly easy to touch up. It holds an edge very nicely, and was quite surprised at how long it held an edge. (comparative to several carbon moras, it stood near their level)

I have carved tons of wood, gutted alot of fish, food prep, and generally just used the knife. I even swam with it in a lake. (even battoned with it too. No chips or anything)

Because it's stainless I don't have to worry about rust, and it holds a fantastic edge that's super easy to touch up. Definitely one of my favorite knives.

I think people who said 440c "is useless compared to nowday steels" should have a look at entrek knives. They might exceed your expectations.

 

[balisong kid]

I dont know why other people dont like it but the reason it seems cheap in the back of my mind is because when im at the flea market all the cheap knives are marked 440C. So when I see a knife with it I think cheap knives. I know its a good steel as long is its treated well.

 

[Gator97]

Your application is pretty specific....you need a thin sharp blade for light/medium duty cutting, something where the newer super steels can really shine.

Nope. I need a thin, sharp blade to cut better. Period. it is a different issue that today we do not have an alloy that can be at 3deg. per side and handle throwing, batonning, etc. However, if there was such a super steel, do you doubt the knives made out of that steel would be far more popular? Simply because they cut better.

Would you want the same steel and blade shape in a throwing knife, or a hunting knife used to quarter a moose, or to baton a log for a campfire?

No, but geometry and alloy composition/properties are different things, and former is partly dictated y later.

...cost being the first, as most ordinary folks would be a little gunshy to try and snap bones or seperate ribs with a $500+ knife, or use the same to chop/baton a large piece of wood in half.

As usual, once the technology is there and takes off prices go down. 440C knives were more expensive back then, in 70s.

Second being the high hardness of some of these new alloys. Can they take prying, hammering, droping, etc without chipping, cracking or breaking?

This one is rather broad statement, but harder steel can take much more abuse than soft one, to a certain point, at which it breaks. However, that doesn't mean softer blade will survive undamaged. In fact, when I was cutting aluminum discs with 64HRC and ~54-56HRC knives harder steels(ZDP-189, CPM S110V, M2 all 64HRC and above) finished tests without a single chip, while the softer steel was simply maimed, here edge damage on soft steel.
Same will happen with prying, chances are, you won't be able to break or even bend hard steel knife, while being able to bend softer steel knife of the same geometry and thickness.
Yes, hard steel can chip and break, but it's not as straightforward as hard steel chips, soft doesn't. Ripped out chunks of the soft steel on the photos in the link above do speak for themselves

We are definately seeing a major revolution in knife steel going on right now, and it's cool to be a part of it.

Agree 100%. Which is why I objected to dismissal of modern alloys and all the science and hard work that goes into creating those as BS, marketing gimmick, etc.

Simply put, modern metallurgy and knife industry gives us better alloys and if a knife user can't utilize them, that's no reason to call it all BS, or blame knife industry.

 

[The Mastiff]

I've never been a 440C fan and still aren't. The first stainless steel I ever felt comfortable with knife wise was Gin 1 in the early spydercos. I stayed strictly with carbon and alloyed steels before that. I still prefer them actually.

That being said I am looking forward to the Carpenter powder steel version of 440C called CTS 40CP. If I'm not mistaken Spyderco is going to make a run of either Mules or folders with this stuff to try it out.

This would help with the one complaint I've always had with 440C, which is the grain structure.

I've never really liked the way regular, ingot 440C sharpened out.

I was no great D2 fan until CPM D2 came along so I figure the CTS powder steel should be worth a look.

Yes, I've still got lots of 440C and D2 knives and use them ( Queen folders are kind of favorites in fact) but I'm still hoping for a little improvement in the 440C steel like there was in CPM D2.

Joe/raleigh

 

[j man]

Some times i think subjects about Steel Vs Steel is just Mental Masturbation!!

 

[A.P.F.]

Some times i think subjects about Steel Vs Steel is just Mental Masturbation!!

Sometimes I think you are quite right!

Somewhere along the line, the thread drifted from the OP's original query about 440C, to a comparison of modern steel. Which is better in a painting, green or blue? Gosh, I guess it depends on what you are painting and which color you prefer.

Earlier today, I swapped out my 440C Buck 110 for a CTS-XHP Manix2. I thoroughly enjoy both knives, but you will have to pry that Buck out of my cold, dead hands.

 

[Yorkshire Boy]

I read in the ESEE forum that if stainless versions of their knives were to come out then they would use 440C.

 

[CUTS LIKE A KRIS]

I'm kind of a hypocrite. I have a distain for 440C due to the fact it has been the most inconsistent steel that i have used from several regarded companies. I have had some that would not take and hold an edge worth a darn, yet I use it for knives that I make. Some have spoken about the hardness of 440C, yet in my last knife it was RC62 after cryo, and was tempered down to 61, so it can attain high hardness comparable to other steels. In the end it comes down to what you can afford, what uses you need out of the knife, and personal preference, which is why I have 6x 32" still left to use.

 

[Morrow]

Because 440 c is junky stainless steel in fact all stainless steel sucks

You've solved it! No more debate is necessary!

 

[hkpokes_you]

People who have not used an exceptional 440-C knife probably under-estimate the importance of proper geometry and heat treatment.

...Incidentally, I just sent a customized 440-c Benchmade Rant to my best friend from high school. He's hiking in the Rockies for the next three weeks. I reground the blade in question to a convex, zero-ground, mirror polished scandi-grind. I used a water wheel, 4 grades of DMT diamond plates, 4 grades of water stones (finishing in 12,000 grit) -- and then moved on to loaded leather and .25 micron micro-finishing film.

Despite all that work I still did not reach the performance potential of that blade; and it was a pleasure to work on compared to s30v.

Also -- my friend is capable of maintaining and sharpening this knife in the field. He's not a knife nut, so I guess he does not feel like he is missing out.

 

[GRIM 62]

Someone earlier mentioned that Randall knives used 440C.I believe they use 440B,and also 01.As far as 440C goes,I don't mind knives made in that steel.I always touch up my knives at the end of the day on a ceramic stone.I don't let my knives get dull,so I guess that I'll never really appreciate what a high performance steel really is.

 

[Gator97]

People who have not used an exceptional 440-C knife probably under-estimate the importance of proper geometry and heat treatment.

I'm not sure I understand this statement, to be exact, why proper geometry and proper HT have to be specific to 440C.
For any knife you'r want optimal geometry and HT. In other words when it comes down steel vs steel, optimal geometry and HT is implied, otherwise it simply doesn't make sense.

 

[shaving sharp]

I can sum it up by saying there are some very famous and in demand makers who have been using 440C as part of their line-up for decades.

That says far more to me than forum fanboyism ever will.


Tostig

As stated above by Grim 62 I believe that Randall does use 440B which is usually regarded as a lesser steel that 440C. Can't get much more famous or in demand than that.

 

[KeithAM]

I see very few "knocks" on 440C on these forums. Rather, I think its just not discussed much because few new knives are made with it.

When I've seen 440C questioned, I've wondered whether the posters had actually ever used it. I suspect a lot of discussion about steel v. steel is based on steel charts rather personal experience or side-by-side comparisons. I think its always better to speak from personal experience rather than steel charts that in reality relatively few knife enthusiasts, including myself, fully understand. YMMV. In any event, the only way to get a truly accurate comparison is to take a bunch of knives like Spyderco Mules with the same geomerty but different steels and carefully measure their performance in side by side tests.

I've had several 440C knives over the years, and still own a few old 440C Bucks. I think the Buck's 440C was great. Good heat treat I guess. And as many have already pointed out, geometry matter a lot (that's why I've used my Edge Pro on a few old 440C 110s.

I'd also add that having had to evaluate the testimony of many so-called "experts," including so-called "scientific" experts, I take it all with a grain of salt. Even experts have biases and axes to grind. Years ago a self-proclaimed expert and scientist spewed a lot of misinformation and biased views on these forums, but thankfully he's no longer here.

Lastly, none of the comparisons mean much to 95% of end users, who may use their knives a few only times a day, and who have the ability to touch up an edge when it starts to dull. 440C works well enough to satisfy the cutting needs of must knife users.

 

[knarfeng]

what i dont like is knives with 440c and vg10 prices

The cost of the alloy in the blade is a such tiny fraction of the cost of the knife, that changing from 440C to VG10 is only a few bucks in the end price. What you pay for is the designing, high tolerance manufacturing, distribution etc, costs.

I dont know why other people dont like it but the reason it seems cheap in the back of my mind is because when im at the flea market all the cheap knives are marked 440C. So when I see a knife with it I think cheap knives. I know its a good steel as long is its treated well.

The flea market knives marked "440C" likely aren't 440C.
Did it ever occur to you that the reason all those cheapies claim to have 440C blades is because 440C is recognized as a "go to steel"?