Why do people knock 440C so readily???

KeithAM said:
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When I've seen 440C questioned, I've wondered whether the posters had actually ever used it. I suspect a lot of discussion about steel v. steel is based on steel charts rather personal experience or side-by-side comparisons. I think its always better to speak from personal experience rather than steel charts that in reality relatively few knife enthusiasts, including myself, fully understand. YMMV.
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Likewise.
With the additional thought that a lot of folks who think they have tried 440C actually used a knock-off, mis-marked alloy and never knew it.
 
KeithAM said:
When I've seen 440C questioned, I've wondered whether the posters had actually ever used it.
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By the same virtue, I wonder how many of the posters who claim 440C is more than adequate vs. modern alloys have actually used CPM 10V, CPM S110V, ZDP-189, CPM S125, Vanadis 4E and few others that they easily dismiss as marketing gimmicks. With proper geometry and HT of course ;) As in, putting 20 per side edge on a skinner or a slicer doesn't constitute proper geometry, at least not for those alloys.

And to answer your question, I have used 440C and still have a few laying around. Just, based on my views, I see no point in spending hundreds on custom 440C to achieve performance that will still be below of what's listed above.


KeithAM said:
I'd also add that having had to evaluate the testimony of many so-called "experts," including so-called "scientific" experts, I take it all with a grain of salt. Even experts have biases and axes to grind.
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Are you assuming knife makers or those experts who claim 440C is on par with newer alloys have no bias and no ax to grind?
 
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Zviad, I trust you to know what works for you. However, there are many who dis 440C without the knowledge of how actual 440C performs in a well designed blade.

I've tested some of the steels you mention. And it is true that their performance in edge retention superior to that of 440C. But I've also used them for daily usage and find that in daily usage they don't perform day-and-night-difference better than 440C for me. There are some folks whose daily tasks may actually require the added performance. But for most users, I highly doubt it.
 
knarfeng said:
I've tested some of the steels you mention. And it is true that their performance in edge retention superior to that of 440C. But I've also used them for daily usage and find that in daily usage they don't perform day-and-night-difference better than 440C for me. There are some folks whose daily tasks may actually require the added performance. But for most users, I highly doubt it.
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Well said. Many of us seek higher performance steels, including myself, because that interests us as knife enthusiasts, not because we actually need or use that higher performance.

There's a member who hangs out on the Spyderco forum, whose name I can't recall, who cuts drywall all day long. He favors an S90V Military. Very appropriate. He's the exception and not the rule. For most of us schlunks the steel used in SAKs gets us through a day of cutting.
 
KeithAM said:
Well said. Many of us seek higher performance steels, including myself, because that interests us as knife enthusiasts, not because we actually need or use that higher performance.

There's a member who hangs out on the Spyderco forum, whose name I can't recall, who cuts drywall all day long. He favors an S90V Military. Very appropriate. He's the exception and not the rule. For most of us schlunks the steel used in SAKs gets us through a day of cutting.
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That would be yablanowitz.
 
knarfeng said:
Zviad, I trust you to know what works for you. However, there are many who dis 440C without the knowledge of how actual 440C performs in a well designed blade.
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Probably there are, and I don't say they're doing the right thing dissing 440C w/o knowledge. My argument was and still is against lumping new alloys and scientific research behind developing those into big basket of "it's all bs".
I am not a scientist, nor a metallurgist. I don't claim to be. But I do know there is a lot of work going into developing those alloys and they do have better properties and characteristics for what they're designed for. The attitude against scientists (metallurgy or whatever else) some people have is ridiculous.


knarfeng said:
But I've also used them for daily usage and find that in daily usage they don't perform day-and-night-difference better than 440C for me. There are some folks whose daily tasks may actually require the added performance. But for most users, I highly doubt it.
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I don't argue that part. I have two points there.
1) If an average person can't drive high performance car to its limits or fully utilize its capabilities, it is not the car's fault, it's the driver. Same for the modern alloys knives and their users.
2) To achieve that day and night difference, again scientific research is needed. With all due respect to "real life users" with or without calluses, they're not the ones doing the research.
BTW, once it's there, that difference, I doubt anyone will refuse a knife that can hold the edge about same or better as todays stuff with the edge 3-4 times thinner. Just those things don't happen overnight, but let's stick to 50 years old steels doesn't' help anything either.
I said before, but 90% or more of the alloys used in modern cars were developed after year 2000. And compare that to knife steels where we still have 50 years old alloys in top performers list...
 
KeithAM said:
Well said. Many of us seek higher performance steels, including myself, because that interests us as knife enthusiasts, not because we actually need or use that higher performance.
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I don't see how you can not use the higher performance, it's automatic. There's no way to not have H1 be more corrosion resistant, there's no way to not have S90V be more wear resistant, and there's no way to not have S7 be more tough, once all these steels are in your hands as a knife.

Do you need it? Maybe not, but there's no way to not use it, unless you don't use the knife. You can miss out on a couple things, like if you don't lower the sharpening angle on some alloys that can handle it, but all the properties are still in the steel, and you can't not have them affect your usage. You cut the same things, in the same places, resharpen the same way, and there's going to be a difference in how long you can cut & how much damage the edge suffers.
 
two of my most used knives are the kershaw responder and sog field pup, both are aus-8...i really use them aggressively; they work great and are easy to sharpen...nobody gives a darn what steel they are made of; showing off expensive knives is juvenile...

and i own big name steel blades too, so don't brand me as someone who can't afford the best...i still haven't taken my zt100 out of its sheath...
 
hardheart said:
I don't see how you can not use the higher performance, it's automatic. There's no way to not have H1 be more corrosion resistant, there's no way to not have S90V be more wear resistant, and there's no way to not have S7 be more tough, once all these steels are in your hands as a knife.

Do you need it? Maybe not, but there's no way to not use it, unless you don't use the knife. You can miss out on a couple things, like if you don't lower the sharpening angle on some alloys that can handle it, but all the properties are still in the steel, and you can't not have them affect your usage. You cut the same things, in the same places, resharpen the same way, and there's going to be a difference in how long you can cut & how much damage the edge suffers.
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Today I'm carrying a SAK. I've used it a few times and it's still sharp. It's also thin and when I used it, the edge didn't roll or chip. Tonight I'll go home and put a Paramilitary 2 in my pocket, I may use it a few times, and it will probably still be sharp. It's not as thin as the SAK, so it doesn't cut quite as well. I will be able to go longer between touch ups with the Para. So I suppose you're right, I'll automatically be using the advantage of the S30V steel, though I won't really notice it. In real life terms, the difference in performance is pretty negligible for everyday cutting. Now Yablonowitz really uses the advantages, but again he's the exception, not the rule.

I notice from you're sig line you're a dealer in S125V knives. One day I may buy an S125V knife because I'm a knife enthusiast, not because I need it. Yablonowitz may need one if he works overtime.
 
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I haven't read all the posts here. Personally I have never cared for it. The only reason is I could never get it sharp. (it would shave, but not sharp enough for me) I would like to give it another shot, (as it's been 15 years since I've had any) I think they were Klotzi knives? I'll have to look them up. I bought a few because they had cool Carbon Fiber weaved handles. But many of the knives I want now don't use it.
 
I'm not much of a dealer. After having tried to get a knife out of this steel from three different custom makers, I found out that Fantoni had made 20 folders in S125V. I emailed them, asked if they were going to make more, and they did. He didn't have a distribution channel for them in the US, so I bought a third of the lot (which is a whopping 10) and added them to my sig line with little extra effort.

I have been EDCing a CS mini-AK in AUS8 and picked up a Sheffield folding utility knife for $7 the last time I was at Academy. The three most significant knives to me are a Tru-sharp baby butterbean I was gifted from my gf, a Ray Kirk Scagel folder in 52100, hardened to I believe around 57 HRc, and my first knife, a small Tinker from Victorinox.

Mention the knife in my sig as many times as you like. :D

ETA: The real life difference really is not that noticeable for most people. It takes effort in playing around with edge angles, finishes, and really paying attention to what's happening when you're cutting stuff. We knock on a lot of steels, hype a lot of others, but we are a decided minority.
 
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KeithAM said:
...So I suppose you're right, I'll automatically be using the advantage of the S30V steel. But in real life terms, the difference in performance is pretty negligible for everyday cutting.
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This is a point worth expanding upon. Notwithstanding the higher capabilities of modern steels, for your average user, there comes a point of diminishing returns where high performance comes in. For me, that point is reached at S30V. It does everything I ask of it and does it well. I can sharpen it fairly easy on ceramics, it takes a nice polished edge and wears well enough for my applications. I exceeded my need when I purchased an S90V Military. It took a long time to sharpen on ceramics and I never could get it quite as sharp as S30V or VG-1. Is S90V a 'bad' steel? Far from it. Simply put, S90V exceeded my needs and characteristics for my definition of a 'good' knife steel. For others, S90V is the 'cat's meow', for me it is 'catchit'.
 
I work in an office doing mostly software related computer work, with an occasional hardware fix when necessary, so yeah I could probably get away with using a SAK for just about everything (though when cutting CAT 5 cable I've rolled the edge on a few different knives). I usually have a Bark River Little Creek, A2 at 58 HRC with me, and it holds an edge surprisingly well for what it is.

The other day someone asked me to cut the flaps off of a cardboard box. I don't know what was in this cardboard but after finishing the task, cutting a few feet of cardboard, my Little Creek was completely and utterly dull. With pressure I could slice the edge against my skin with zero effect. I usually keep a DMT mini-sharp in my desk but had recently leant it to someone who hasn't returned it. So there I was with a useless blade.

Did my world come to a crashing halt? No, of course not, but it did bother the crap out of me for the rest of the day. Now had I used my Mule in CPM M4 I'm quite sure there would have been plently of life left in that edge. So do I need a high performance steel for my work? Not really. But do I want one? You bet! I'm currently working on an EDC design that I'll have custom made out of most likely CPM M4 at 63-65 HRC.
 
balisong kid said:
I dont know why other people dont like it but the reason it seems cheap in the back of my mind is because when im at the flea market all the cheap knives are marked 440C. So when I see a knife with it I think cheap knives. I know its a good steel as long is its treated well.
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Are they marked 440C or just 440 Stainless? Most knives marked 440 Stainless are most likely 440A possible 440B. These versions do not have as much carbon as 440C.

Bill
 
Hitthespot said:
Are they marked 440C or just 440 Stainless? Most knives marked 440 Stainless are most likely 440A possible 440B. These versions do not have as much carbon as 440C.

Bill
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Probably marked as 440 probably 420j2, only a guess?
 
theonew said:
I work in an office doing mostly software related computer work, with an occasional hardware fix when necessary, so yeah I could probably get away with using a SAK for just about everything (though when cutting CAT 5 cable I've rolled the edge on a few different knives). I usually have a Bark River Little Creek, A2 at 58 HRC with me, and it holds an edge surprisingly well for what it is.

The other day someone asked me to cut the flaps off of a cardboard box. I don't know what was in this cardboard but after finishing the task, cutting a few feet of cardboard, my Little Creek was completely and utterly dull. With pressure I could slice the edge against my skin with zero effect. I usually keep a DMT mini-sharp in my desk but had recently leant it to someone who hasn't returned it. So there I was with a useless blade.

Did my world come to a crashing halt? No, of course not, but it did bother the crap out of me for the rest of the day. Now had I used my Mule in CPM M4 I'm quite sure there would have been plently of life left in that edge. So do I need a high performance steel for my work? Not really. But do I want one? You bet! I'm currently working on an EDC design that I'll have custom made out of most likely CPM M4 at 63-65 HRC.
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Wrong geometry for cutting cardboard.
story:
My daughter's senior class raised money for their senior trip by working in a food stand at the local stadium for a half dozen or so games. Parents helped because the stand sold beer. No knives allowed at the stadium, but we found we needed a knife to open all the cartons. After the first outing, I made it a habit to slip a Vic Classic into my pocket. Security never caught it and we used the begunkus out of that Vic each game. Opened dozens of boxes, opened heavy plastic. At the end of each 12-hour outing, it was still cutting. That thin little blade was all we needed. And a few strokes on a stone the next day were all I needed to be ready to go again. (And Dad was a hero.)

A fella named Roman Landes said it best, "Geometry cuts." Having the right geometry is more important than having the best steel
 
knarfeng voices a strong point in that geometry actually is more important than alloy when the actual cutting takes place. dennis
 
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