Why do people like 1095 for pricier knives?

[BluntCut MetalWorks]

O1 1%Mn is mainly an aust stabilizer, allows slow quench => slow thermal contraction. But Mn narrowing the temperature range of Ms Msafe Mf. That's why recommended quench to Msafe (~140F) then immediately temper, due to more intense dimensional changes from aust -> mart transformation. This part is where not know or not follow direction could result in quench crack. 1st temper is mostly for remove high dislocation/stresses via precipitation, in turn it gives more room for more mart when cool to ambient, thus 2nd temper is required.

I had thought dimensional stability during quenching was part of the appeal of medium quench steels like O1. If the steel is changing shape rapidly due to the thermal shock of brine or fast quench oil, does that not increase the likelihood of internal stresses?

I realize a lot of that comes out during tempering, but I did think that slower quench steels survived quenching more often.

 

[shqxk]

Again, 1095 is not know for its toughness. Lower carbon steels are known for toughness and alloyed steels are known for toughness. At a given hardness, 1095 will be less tough than 1070, 52100, A2, S7 or 3V. At that hardness, 52100, A2 and 3V will hold an edge better.


I think you've heard something so often that you've believed it without any reason involved. Hypereutectoid steels sacrifice toughness for edge holding because the edge is full of carbide. 1095 makes a crude carbide. 52100 makes a finer carbide and finer resulting grain. Grain is where toughness comes from in the low alloy and basic steels. 1070 is tough because it doesn't have enough carbon to make any carbides. 1050 is even tougher because there is so little carbon that some spongy free iron is floating in the matrix.


Do you understand what carbides are?

Hypereutectoid steel aren't always sacrifice toughness for edge holding. Its all depend on the HT procedure and aim hardness... 1050 will be much tougher than 1095 at mid's 50HRC but with proper HT cycle 1095 will be tougher than 1050 at 60HRC+ because it not suffer from carbon lean martensite.

1070 also does have some carbide... I'm not sure if you ever heard of iron carbide? its all depending on HT procedure.

Every plain/low alloy carbon from 1050 to 1095 to W2 to 52100 are all known for its toughness because its capability to be differential heat treat or tempering. The pearlite, bainite or spring tempered martensite are much tougher than any powdered steel ever be...

 

[jdm61]

1095CV is a version of the Sharon 170-06/50-100B. My question about some of the commercial "proprietary" heat treatments for 1095 is why they leave he so soft. 1095 is a very shallow harding steel so you don't need to leave ti soft overall because in a thick outdoors blade, the thick areas like the line are likely going to be a tad soft anyway. That is why you get the 'accidental hamon." To me, 1095 at 55-57 at the edge is a waste of material. Personally, i wouldn't leave the stuff under 60 for any reason.

1095cv is 1095 with a tiny amount of a couple extra ingredients added, so say it is not 1095 is similar to saying that ESEE's 1095 has too nice of a proprietary heat treat and is therefore disqualified from being considered base 1095.

 

[shqxk]

duble post

 

[Mecha]

O1 1%Mn is mainly an aust stabilizer, allows slow quench => slow thermal contraction. But Mn narrowing the temperature range of Ms Msafe Mf. That's why recommended quench to Msafe (~140F) then immediately temper, due to more intense dimensional changes from aust -> mart transformation. This part is where not know or not follow direction could result in quench crack. 1st temper is mostly for remove high dislocation/stresses via precipitation, in turn it gives more room for more mart when cool to ambient, thus 2nd temper is required.

Great stuff Bluntcut, I admire your knowledge of steel and its metallurgy!

 

[knarfeng]

1095CV is a version of the Sharon 170-06/50-100B. My question about some of the commercial "proprietary" heat treatments for 1095 is why they leave he so soft. 1095 is a very shallow harding steel so you don't need to leave ti soft overall because in a thick outdoors blade, the thick areas like the line are likely going to be a tad soft anyway. That is why you get the 'accidental hamon." To me, 1095 at 55-57 at the edge is a waste of material. Personally, i wouldn't leave the stuff under 60 for any reason.

Yes. KaBar 1095 Cro Van is an exact composition match for Sharon 0170-06. So says Paul Tsujimoto, KA-BAR metallurgist, AKA "toooj" here on BF.

The amounts of alloying elements in 1095 Cro Van are so small that the amount of carbides are insufficient to make it brittle. The small amounts of Vanadium drive smaller grain structure, which actually makes it tougher. Whether the amount of toughening is enough to be noticeable in the field I can't say. But, certainly 1095 Cro Van is no more brittle than 1095.

Small amounts of chromium help even out the response to heat treat. So 1095 Cro Van will be more uniform in temper than 1095. Again, whether this is noticeable in the field is not known to me.

 

[Aleous]

Again, 1095 is not know for its toughness. Lower carbon steels are known for toughness and alloyed steels are known for toughness. At a given hardness, 1095 will be less tough than 1070, 52100, A2, S7 or 3V.

Well I can confidently say you are right at least when it comes to blades 20" and longer, sword territory if you will. 1095 in swords is considered almost too brittle to be used in a functional sword blade and will be less tough then other popular sword steels. A proper heat treats can still make them shine though.

Although I believe when you get down to smaller fixed blades it tends to be tough enough to handle most if not all possible applications someone would need it for.

 

[bodog]

As far as prices go, it takes time to make a knife. You have to account for that factor. If a guy wants to make even 10 bucks an hour, he has to charge around 80 to 100 bucks just for his time involved in making it a low end, plain Jane knife. That doesn't include the cost of the handle materials, the sheath, the sanding belts, the spacers and guards, the tubes and pins, the money spent heat treating the steel, or membership/advertising costs. Forget about making a knife and screwing up a small thing that basically trashes the entire project and having to start over with all new materials. Or testing a knife and finding a fault that cannot be corrected and not allowing yourself to send out a bad knife.

By the time all is said and done, if everything is done in house from sourcing the handle materials to cutting and grinding the blades, $200 bucks for a 1095 knife isn't bad. A knifemaker sure can't get rich off of that profit margin, anyway. The only reason big companies can do it for less is because they get bulk discounts, have an assembly line process, and outsource a lot of the manufacturing processes to third world countries.

If you want to support small craftsmen, you have to accept that they cannot tap into the processes that cut costs. The guys you see selling on the knifemaker's for sale forum for low costs are taking losses or are just supporting a hobby. The guys who are trying to pay bills are selling for $500 and up for knives with what are considered value steels.

People get used to Walmart prices and can't see that these companies are wrecking quality work done by small people. Sure, you can buy a rocking chair in Walmart for $30. And if you buy one from an Amish craftsman it'd cost you $300. Both will withstand your weight and both will rock. It's a personal choice as to what you buy and from whom. Certain things I'd rather buy from small craftsmen and starving artists, some things I'd rather buy at the cheapest price possible. Hell, even within something like the knife world, I'd rather buy a spyderco folding knife over a hand ground and fit folding knife, but I probably won't buy another mass produced fixed blade.

 

[gadgetgeek]

Not sure why the discussion kept going after the battery analogy. If that's how you view the world, no wonder you don't understand why people like 1095. Or are you suggesting that the guys who build cars don't know what they are doing by using lead-acid batteries. Makes me really wonder what better is defined by in your world.

 

[shqxk]

When it come to higher end knife. Aesthetic is one of the most importance aspect for quality steel...

And there are very few steel option when it come to beautiful complex hamon or custom ss/carbon lamination and 1095 is one of the better choice.

 

[Kitten Party]

I don't understand the high end steel thing honestly, I'm sure they are great steels but the price disparity is often unreasonable. I saw a video where mike Stewart was rattling off what he paid for steels and it was like s 30v was $15/lb elmax was 17, CPM 3v was 19 I mean tiny difference. I understand there is increased tooling cost also but damn. Some knives charge $70-100 increase for a steel upgrade.

 

[knarfeng]

I don't understand the high end steel thing honestly, I'm sure they are great steels but the price disparity is often unreasonable. I saw a video where mike Stewart was rattling off what he paid for steels and it was like s 30v was $15/lb elmax was 17, CPM 3v was 19 I mean tiny difference. I understand there is increased tooling cost also but damn. Some knives charge $70-100 increase for a steel upgrade.

Upgrade from what?

If you are changing from 1095 to S30V, the S30V
Costs more for the material
Costs a LOT more to machine
Costs more to heat treat.

So if all you are looking at is the cost of the raw alloy, you aren't looking at the entire picture.

 

[Insipid Moniker]

Upgrade from what?

If you are changing from 1095 to S30V, the S30V
Costs more for the material
Costs a LOT more to machine
Costs more to heat treat.

So if all you are looking at is the cost of the raw alloy, you aren't looking at the entire picture.

One other thing is all of those steps take longer and payroll is almost invariably the biggest single expense in any operation. A steel that takes 10 minutes of grinding instead of 5 could easily almost double the cost. Man-hours, PARTICULARLY
man-hours in the US or other countries with high wages, are almost always the single most valuable variable you're dealing with.

 

[Kitten Party]

These are all excellent points and I am aware that there are increased cost outside of the material I am only speculating whether the product pricing is linearly connected to the production and material cost. I could see it going either way but if I had to guess based on my zero professional experience in the knife making industry I would guess that cost go up exponentially when these "feature" steels are used as add-ons. I'm sure this also is highly dependent on which manufacturer we are talking about.

 

[RX-79G]

Not sure why the discussion kept going after the battery analogy. If that's how you view the world, no wonder you don't understand why people like 1095. Or are you suggesting that the guys who build cars don't know what they are doing by using lead-acid batteries. Makes me really wonder what better is defined by in your world.

I wasn't talking about cars, I was talking about batteries. Do you remember before Duracells and Energizers? Do you remember what happened when you replaced your Eveready batteries in your Walkman or flashlight with alkalines in the '80s? Everything worked better. The only trade off was cost.

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

One other thing is all of those steps take longer and payroll is almost invariably the biggest single expense in any operation. A steel that takes 10 minutes of grinding instead of 5 could easily almost double the cost. Man-hours, PARTICULARLY
man-hours in the US or other countries with high wages, are almost always the single most valuable variable you're dealing with.

A million times this.

Mora is a perfect example of minimizing costs in this regard.Almost their whole process is automated, they use interchangeable parts (multiple blade shapes are used on multiple models, multiple handle and sheath molds are used for multiple models, etc.) the grind is easily automated, and in their design process they even make it so the knives nest tightly together when packed for shipping.

 

[RX-79G]

When it come to higher end knife. Aesthetic is one of the most importance aspect for quality steel...

And there are very few steel option when it come to beautiful complex hamon or custom ss/carbon lamination and 1095 is one of the better choice.

W1 and W2 is a better choice, since you get a beautiful hamon and other benefits. But I don't think the steel used for a beautiful one-of-a-kind custom knife is really that important compared to a factory commodity.

Maximizing the performance of knives through alloy selection is primarily important if you plan on pushing that tool as hard as possible. You can certainly use a knife with stabilized wood scales and a polished hamon blade for a survival knife, but that is not the most likely scenario.

 

[shqxk]

W1 and W2 is a better choice, since you get a beautiful hamon and other benefits. But I don't think the steel used for a beautiful one-of-a-kind custom knife is really that important compared to a factory commodity.

Maximizing the performance of knives through alloy selection is primarily important if you plan on pushing that tool as hard as possible. You can certainly use a knife with stabilized wood scales and a polished hamon blade for a survival knife, but that is not the most likely scenario.

The difference in performance between W1, W2 and 1095 from the same maker with proper equipment and procedure are very little to the point that most people wouldn't ever notice...

I have worked with all of these steel... clay hardening hamon line are pretty much the same but W1 or W2 won't take as good lamination as 1095 because of the vanadium.

"Maximizing the performance of knives through alloy selection" is just laughable... better to say maximizing the performance through heat treatment and education are primary important

 

[DeadboxHero]

High up in the ivory tower.

People bicker alloy power!

Pretentious display, disdain for simple,

Thunder clashes in the temple.

A man walks in, his knowledge little,

"A knife I'll buy!"

Yet, his tastes are fickle.

Words fly at him from left to right.

Chromium! Carbon! Shouting at full height.

He grabs the knife that he chooses,

without knowing how carbon diffuses.

To him, the aethitics and handle fit,

regardless of what's inside if it.

Will it work? Time will tell.

He hasn't noticed why people raise hell.

As he sits by the campfire dreaming,

the Ivory tower continues its mindless reaming

 

[RX-79G]

The difference in performance between W1, W2 and 1095 from the same maker with proper equipment and procedure are very little to the point that most people wouldn't ever notice...

I have worked with all of these steel... clay hardening hamon line are pretty much the same but W1 or W2 won't take as good lamination as 1095 because of the vanadium.

"Maximizing the performance of knives through alloy selection" is just laughable... better to say maximizing the performance through heat treatment and education are primary important

What a weird attitude. Alloy and heat treatment are both important.


Are you saying you can't get W1 or W2 to forge weld? All of a sudden these tiny amounts of alloying elements are so important?


As far as education goes, people with very little knowledge of steels have been repeatedly trying to educate everyone on how 1095 is one of the toughest steels around. While no one has to agree with my ideas, they at least got the real facts about these steels from multiple knifemakers, rather than just the usual repetition of "common knowledge".