Why do simple stainless steels preform so differently?

[MG74]

I would think part of the reason is the fineness of the grain of these steels and the edge stability due to toughness. Steels like these seem to keep a razor edge for longer and then suddenly are dull as a butter knife.

Higher carbide steels lose that razor edge, but keep a working edge for a lot longer

That's an interesting point I can't really say I've heard before. I could see that being rather problematic for an average user who can't sharpen. I guess when I consider my own usage I resharpen or strop my knives pretty much as soon as they lose their paper cutting sharpness. I've never used a knife after that point because I kind of already consider anything past that to be blunt so I have no experience with a steel like 440C after it's lost its shaving edge.

 

[Willie71]

Is that really true though? I can tell you a cheap AEB-L folding knife would be extremely appealing to me. Most people seem to describe AEB-L as a tough steel that doesn't chip or roll too much and that holds a super fine edge with decent retention and stainlessness. I haven't really seen anyone complaining of it chipping out or anything along those lines and I don't think it'd be that big of a problem for a cardboard cutter sort of pocket utility knife.

If you leave it thicker or softer, you would give up the main benefits of using aeb-l.

 

[MG74]

If you leave it thicker or softer, you would give up the main benefits of using aeb-l.

Why would a pocket knife need to be thicker or softer and if it needs that kind of treatment why not just give it a moderate micro bevel/secondary bevel?

 

[kuraki]

AEB-L preforms really well because it really just doesn't want to be flat.

 

[Busto]

I can tell you a cheap AEB-L folding knife would be extremely appealing to me.

From the manufacturing stand point even if AEB-L were less expensive material and I produce $100 knives why would I drop my drawers and leave profit on the table. Manufacturing expenses remain the same even if the materials cost seem less...a $100 pocket knife is still $100.
I like AEB-L Flat and Thin hard for kitchen knives!!

 

[MG74]

You all seem to have very strong doubts about how this steel could be used in budget knives but I mean it's kinda already happened. I did some looking around and take a look a ruike knives in 14C28N. Apparently, they're overall very good folders using 14C28N that are becoming extremely popular due to the value proposition and the quality of the knives. I think I'm right about these simpler stainless steels displacing the lower end of the knife market at least over time.

 

[Geoff Flato]

I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of lower end European knives (you know the ones) already often use aeb-L as their generic stainless. Aeb-L, 12c27, 14c28, they are all similar enough to be indistinguishable when heat treated cheese soft like the big production companies do. I can guarantee you they will use whichever stainless in that realm they can get cheapest, and not always the same material. That's why they call the blade "stainless" instead of giving an alloy.

The only reason aeb-L has the reputation it does is that there isn't much (at least that I'm aware of) apart from custom knives that advertise its use. If all of the soft generic stainless blades started being advertised as aeb-L, you wouldn't be feeling the same.
Look at your perception of 440c, a steel with noticeably better edge holding than aeb-L. Cheap factory knives advertising its use have made people think its the steel not the poor heat treat.

Cheap factory knives are cheap factory knives, and there isn't much getting around that.

 

[MG74]

I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of lower end European knives (you know the ones) already often use aeb-L as their generic stainless. Aeb-L, 12c27, 14c28, they are all similar enough to be indistinguishable when heat treated cheese soft like the big production companies do. I can guarantee you they will use whichever stainless in that realm they can get cheapest, and not always the same material. That's why they call the blade "stainless" instead of giving an alloy.

The only reason aeb-L has the reputation it does is that there isn't much (at least that I'm aware of) apart from custom knives that advertise its use. If all of the soft generic stainless blades started being advertised as aeb-L, you wouldn't be feeling the same.
Look at your perception of 440c, a steel with noticeably better edge holding than aeb-L. Cheap factory knives advertising its use have made people think its the steel not the poor heat treat.

Cheap factory knives are cheap factory knives, and there isn't much getting around that.

While I did order one of those liner lock Ruike knives that are advertised as 14C28N that run on ball bearings that everyone seems extremely impressed by quality wise. I mean for 40 CAD on Amazon with one-day shipping I couldn't help myself . I'm a sucker for value and we'll see just how well or how poorly it does but I'm feeling rather positive about my purchase. I'm sure any allow no matter how nice is shit if it's given the ol chinese butter knife treatment but really if you're careful about looking into your knives after about the 20 dollar price point I find you really only get poor knives in 440C,420J, generic "440" steel and 440A/B can also be very unimpressive in cheaper knives but AUS-8 and 8cr14MOV as well those other weirdly named Chinese steels so far have been decent. Unimpressive but decent. I find the economics of lower end knives fascinating especially in cases where companies take a material that isn't super cheap like 440C and make it underperform. I never got that. If you're going to make a butter knife out of 440C why not do it out of a crap like 420J? Anyways I'm going to test out this Ruike knife and see just how capable it is but who knows? If someone's already out there doing it maybe it's only a matter of time where the budget knife steel people will be comparing knives to will be a Sandvik or Bohler AEB-L type steel. I personally think there's a lot of untapped potential in these materials in budget offerings.

So far the only interesting criticism of these types of stainless steel that I've heard but I don't know whether it's true or not is that they lose their working edge rather quickly after losing their razor edge which might be an unusual hurdle compared to similar knife offerings but I feel like that's not going to be super relevant given how easy the steel is to sharpen. I feel like if you're so clueless about knives that you get upset that your already dull knife doesn't hold enough of an edge to do whatever people do with dull knives you're probably not buying anything more than 10-20 bucks or you're probably buying a swiss army knife or similar type knife.

 

[Stromberg Knives]

I'm by no means qualified to make educated conjectures on this matter. But to me it would seem that most of the tangible differences (based on actual user experience) between for example AEB-L and 14C28N would be due to how the steel was heat treated, not their (very similar) composition.

https://www.alphaknifesupply.com/zdata-bladesteelS-AEBL.htm

 

[Willie71]

I’m probably not being very clear in my reasoning. Aeb-l performs really well with tight control on heat treat, and to take advantage of its properties, you need to go thin, like 0.005” or less. That type of edge is typically done by hand, rather than industrial machinery. It could be done with industrial equipment, but that would require higher end abrasives and slower processes. If cheap is the goal, this is not compatible. With 0.003” at Rc62+, some uninformed person will chip or deform the edge using the knife as a prybar or screwdriver. They post that on forums, or on social media, and that is bad marketing.

I am working on a kitchen knife for a new customer in Cru-wear. He noted he wasn’t seeing much benefit to high end folders in supersteels, as they didn’t take advantage of the steel’s properties to gain an advantage. Edges at 0.015” or thicker. All you get is better wear resistance. I do edc’s in z-wear/cru-wear at Rc63/64, 0.005” behind the edge. It takes me as long to go from profiled to 0.012” as it does from 0.012” to 0.005” to prevent burning the fine edge. I also switch to a fresh belt at that point. All of this takes time and money to get that extra bit of performance. Doing aeb-l right compared to doing it ok will double the cost.

 

[Larrin]

The main benefit of using AEB-L, 13C26, and 14C28N in inexpensive production knives is that they reach high hardness while it’s alo possible to fine blank them. That’s why Kershaw uses it. 440C, 154CM, the PM grades, etc cannot. The point the OP is making about it not being used in production knives is false.

 

[Grayzer86]

I’m probably not being very clear in my reasoning. Aeb-l performs really well with tight control on heat treat, and to take advantage of its properties, you need to go thin, like 0.005” or less. That type of edge is typically done by hand, rather than industrial machinery. It could be done with industrial equipment, but that would require higher end abrasives and slower processes. If cheap is the goal, this is not compatible. With 0.003” at Rc62+, some uninformed person will chip or deform the edge using the knife as a prybar or screwdriver. They post that on forums, or on social media, and that is bad marketing.

I am working on a kitchen knife for a new customer in Cru-wear. He noted he wasn’t seeing much benefit to high end folders in supersteels, as they didn’t take advantage of the steel’s properties to gain an advantage. Edges at 0.015” or thicker. All you get is better wear resistance. I do edc’s in z-wear/cru-wear at Rc63/64, 0.005” behind the edge. It takes me as long to go from profiled to 0.012” as it does from 0.012” to 0.005” to prevent burning the fine edge. I also switch to a fresh belt at that point. All of this takes time and money to get that extra bit of performance. Doing aeb-l right compared to doing it ok will double the cost.

This 100 times over. AEB-L is good when heat treated perfectly and run thin at high hardness. That’s what the custom makers are doing. The people buying these custom knives are spending more money, and also typically understand how to use knives properly. The reason people aren’t reporting chipping, deformation or broken blades, is partly because the people currently buying blades in that steel are using them properly. The general public doesn’t operate this way. I have never had a blade chip out in any steel I use, but the people who are willing to pay what I charge are people who know how to use a knife and not abuse it. If one of those thin hard blades were used to chop or pry, they would quite likely chip or fail. This is why manufacturers leave their blades thick and soft. People WILL abuse them, and misuse them, and leaving them thick and soft helps prevent broken or damaged blades. When a cheaper basic steel has moderate edge retention people accept that. When they chip or break blades, they complain and one way or another that costs the company money. If they have to run AEB-L soft and thick like this, it negates almost any benefit of using that steel over something like 8cr13 or the like. If someone like Kershaw made commercially available knives with super thin grinds at RC63, where AEB-L shines, and sold them to the general public, they would likely not survive well for the general knife user. Even high end production knives in premium steels are almost always run thicker and softer than what custom makers would do. Manufacturers are focused on durability, not absolute peak cutting performance. I also agree that even for a cheaper material, having to work it slower, and to thinner geometry, at a higher hardness, would drastically increase cost for them in both time spent, and abrasives used.

 

[MG74]

The main benefit of using AEB-L, 13C26, and 14C28N in inexpensive production knives is that they reach high hardness while it’s alo possible to fine blank them. That’s why Kershaw uses it. 440C, 154CM, the PM grades, etc cannot. The point the OP is making about it not being used in production knives is false.

My point was not that they are not used at all. I know that Kershaw uses them but Kershaw's using those steels at least in Canada are not what I'd consider cheap. I think the main Kershaw line in those steels are the Ken Onion knives but I'm not really sure? I certainly struggled to find good budget offerings other than the Ruike's which as I understand are made in the same factory as the Kershaws.

 

[MG74]

I’m probably not being very clear in my reasoning. Aeb-l performs really well with tight control on heat treat, and to take advantage of its properties, you need to go thin, like 0.005” or less. That type of edge is typically done by hand, rather than industrial machinery. It could be done with industrial equipment, but that would require higher end abrasives and slower processes. If cheap is the goal, this is not compatible. With 0.003” at Rc62+, some uninformed person will chip or deform the edge using the knife as a prybar or screwdriver. They post that on forums, or on social media, and that is bad marketing.

I am working on a kitchen knife for a new customer in Cru-wear. He noted he wasn’t seeing much benefit to high end folders in supersteels, as they didn’t take advantage of the steel’s properties to gain an advantage. Edges at 0.015” or thicker. All you get is better wear resistance. I do edc’s in z-wear/cru-wear at Rc63/64, 0.005” behind the edge. It takes me as long to go from profiled to 0.012” as it does from 0.012” to 0.005” to prevent burning the fine edge. I also switch to a fresh belt at that point. All of this takes time and money to get that extra bit of performance. Doing aeb-l right compared to doing it ok will double the cost.

This is the most interesting and salient point to me about these steels so far. I'm well aware that customs are better. Hell, my first shitty homemade 1084 knife that I made in a crap coffee can forge and canola quenched has been by far my best-fixed blade camping knife and I know my grind was woefully bad and I know it looks like shit but simply having made the choice to use 1084 it's been a fantastic performer but that's beside the point. I'd love it if I could afford well-made customs but I'm on a college student budget. I still think there's an interesting potential market for properly heat treated knives. A sort of entry-level knife enthusiast market. I think the success of such a line would rely on some very shrewd marketing tactics and clever choices like packaging some sort of pocket stone with their knives perhaps and selling them as a bundle? If I had the money I think I'd give it a shot myself honestly.

 

[jdm61]

I think that AEB-L is more expensive that say Chinese "commodity" steel, etc. in part because the QC is so tight. The Japanese would be hesitant to publicly admit this, (even though some Jpanese manufacturers uses Swedish steel) but it would appear that the BU/Voestalpine simple steels are pretty much the equal of the comparable Hitachi and Takefu steels.

 

[MG74]

I think that AEB-L is more expensive than say Chinese "commodity" steel, etc. in part because the QC is so tight. The Japanese would be hesitant to publicly admit this, (even though some Japanese manufacturers uses Swedish steel) but it would appear that the BU/Voestalpine simple steels are pretty much the equal of the comparable Hitachi and Takefu steels.

I don't think I've ever heard of Voestalpine before but I do find the dominance of Hitachi and Takefu in knife steel to be rather interesting. I also personally think if they don't change their attitude toward's western makers at some point I think they're on their way out at least in the cutlery steel world. Their refusal to sell Yasugi specialty steels to non-Japanese makers is a prime example of this. I'd love to see YSS steels made available to western makers because I think it'd make a fantastic woodworking and bushcraft steel. I know a lot of people would like to get their hands on it and I know Hitachi is very dismissive towards that segment of people. I do know that ultimately for a steelmaker cutlery steel is a very small percentage of their sales and for these large conglomerates like Taylor brands, knives probably represent very little of their bottom line. I just think there's an opening in the market for a smaller company to start making knives from AEB-L and 14C28N selling them as very good value offerings. Obviously, that's just my very speculative view and I don't really know what kind of production costs go into that kind of venture. I'm certainly no entrepreneur and I'm not really qualified in much of anything yet which is why I like this kind of nitty-gritty business discussion. For me, knives are a hobby and I'd love to get into knife making more as a hobby but ultimately knives are a business and I think understanding the business provides very important insight into the market.

 

[Willie71]

This is the most interesting and salient point to me about these steels so far. I'm well aware that customs are better. Hell, my first shitty homemade 1084 knife that I made in a crap coffee can forge and canola quenched has been by far my best-fixed blade camping knife and I know my grind was woefully bad and I know it looks like shit but simply having made the choice to use 1084 it's been a fantastic performer but that's beside the point. I'd love it if I could afford well-made customs but I'm on a college student budget. I still think there's an interesting potential market for properly heat treated knives. A sort of entry-level knife enthusiast market. I think the success of such a line would rely on some very shrewd marketing tactics and clever choices like packaging some sort of pocket stone with their knives perhaps and selling them as a bundle? If I had the money I think I'd give it a shot myself honestly.

I do two lines of knives. Well finished and properly sanded, and a cheaper line with the same steels and heat treat, but synthetic handles, or non figured hardwoods, and belt ground finishes. The cheaper knives are really popular here, especially with farmers and hunters.

 

[MG74]

I do two lines of knives. Well finished and properly sanded, and a cheaper line with the same steels and heat treat, but synthetic handles, or non figured hardwoods, and belt ground finishes. The cheaper knives are really popular here, especially with farmers and hunters.

How much do your cheaper knives go for out of curiosity and what materials do you prefer? Also, I find it interesting that you use synthetics in your cheaper lines of knives. I thought synthetics were more expensive because they're harder on abrasives.

 

[Busto]

I do two lines of knives. Well finished and properly sanded, and a cheaper line with the same steels and heat treat, but synthetic handles, or non figured hardwoods, and belt ground finishes. The cheaper knives are really popular here, especially with farmers and hunters.

I have a similar market....you can put 2 knives side by side with two different qualities of steel(one carbon one stainless) and heat treats but have them with different handle material and the one that is $10 cheaper sells every time....I tested this by switching out price tags and it's all about price not quality of finish or steel. I only did this to find out what type market to target.

There are markets for $10-$20-$30 on up many people don't care about the quality of steel or even handle material but they worry about losing or breaking a $50 knife and not so much the $10 ones. This forum has every price range covered so if you're a student you want a $100 knife for $25 simple if you can find them...When you can afford a $40 knife you research for the best one but only find $75 knives sometimes you have to spend a little more to get what you want.

 

[Willie71]

How much do your cheaper knives go for out of curiosity and what materials do you prefer? Also, I find it interesting that you use synthetics in your cheaper lines of knives. I thought synthetics were more expensive because they're harder on abrasives.

My pricing starts at $125.00 for a bird and trout.

I use g-10 or micarta handles even though they are harder on abrasives. I can mostly machine finish them, with minimal work by hand. A nice Koa handle gets polished to 2500g by hand, and multiple applications of danish or tru oil. Non stabilized (natural) wood is even more time consuming to finish, as it takes two weeks to a month to properly finish the wood with oil. When I use synthetics, 250-800g depending on the application, and wipe it down with wd-40, I can finish g-10 from a block to wipe down in less than an hour.

I use most steels in either line, but if you are wanting z-wear, my heat treat process is 2 days, and abrasive costs are quite high. 15n20 is really popular. The materials are not the biggest expense. It’s how long it takes to process them that costs.