Why do simple stainless steels preform so differently?

[jdm61]

Voestalpine is a large Austrian conglomerate that bought Bohler-Uddeholm, which was a smaller Swedish-Austrian steel company.

I don't think I've ever heard of Voestalpine before but I do find the dominance of Hitachi and Takefu in knife steel to be rather interesting. I also personally think if they don't change their attitude toward's western makers at some point I think they're on their way out at least in the cutlery steel world. Their refusal to sell Yasugi specialty steels to non-Japanese makers is a prime example of this. I'd love to see YSS steels made available to western makers because I think it'd make a fantastic woodworking and bushcraft steel. I know a lot of people would like to get their hands on it and I know Hitachi is very dismissive towards that segment of people. I do know that ultimately for a steelmaker cutlery steel is a very small percentage of their sales and for these large conglomerates like Taylor brands, knives probably represent very little of their bottom line. I just think there's an opening in the market for a smaller company to start making knives from AEB-L and 14C28N selling them as very good value offerings. Obviously, that's just my very speculative view and I don't really know what kind of production costs go into that kind of venture. I'm certainly no entrepreneur and I'm not really qualified in much of anything yet which is why I like this kind of nitty-gritty business discussion. For me, knives are a hobby and I'd love to get into knife making more as a hobby but ultimately knives are a business and I think understanding the business provides very important insight into the market.

 

[MG74]

My pricing starts at $125.00 for a bird and trout.

I use g-10 or micarta handles even though they are harder on abrasives. I can mostly machine finish them, with minimal work by hand. A nice Koa handle gets polished to 2500g by hand, and multiple applications of danish or tru oil. Non stabilized (natural) wood is even more time consuming to finish, as it takes two weeks to a month to properly finish the wood with oil. When I use synthetics, 250-800g depending on the application, and wipe it down with wd-40, I can finish g-10 from a block to wipe down in less than an hour.

I use most steels in either line, but if you are wanting z-wear, my heat treat process is 2 days, and abrasive costs are quite high. 15n20 is really popular. The materials are not the biggest expense. It’s how long it takes to process them that costs.

I find it really interesting that there just seems to be a lack of manufacturing processes that can compete with handmade production. I would have thought that factory knife production would have caught up to handmade knives by now. That's not a problem I really would have expected to be the limitation of production knives and I also find it interesting that there seem to be some companies out there that are able to produce rather nice knives on a production line. Mora knives come to mind for me. My carbon steel mora is probably my favorite bushcraft knife. There seems to be a lot of interesting offerings from Swedish companies or companies using Swedish materials.

 

[AVigil]

If AEB-L was not probably the most used steel used by just about everyone, its price would be much higher.

No one should complain that AEB-L is not expensive, the price is reflected due to it being used in millions of razors every year.

Enjoy the price break

When I go to my local ALDI I am not complaining that the eggs are .58 cents a dozen. They make the exact $6 omelets $3/dozen eggs do

 

[MG74]

If AEB-L was not probably the most used steel used by just about everyone, its price would be much higher.

No one should complain that AEB-L is not expensive, the price is reflected due to it being used in millions of razors every year.

Enjoy the price break

When I go to my local ALDI I am not complaining that the eggs are .58 cents a dozen. They make the exact $6 omelets $3/dozen eggs do

I'm referring to AEB-L in knives already being sold and not the material itself or other applications of the steel.

 

[jdm61]

AEB-L, like a fair number of other steels has been experimented on by custom knife makers and "improved" when compared to the industry standard methods of processing it. Same thing with steel like 52100 and D2. When used for razor blades, etc, I suspect that AEB-L/13C26 has a pretty optimum balance between being a good blade steel and being easy to work with. Ease of manufacturer is behind a lot of choices. Look at the rather cheap commodity steel that German makers like Zwilling and Wusthof use even for knives that are not all that cheap.

 

[MG74]

AEB-L, like a fair number of other steels has been experimented on by custom knife makers and "improved" when compared to the industry standard methods of processing it. Same thing with steel like 52100 and D2. When used for razor blades, etc, I suspect that AEB-L/13C26 has a pretty optimum balance between being a good blade steel and being easy to work with. Ease of manufacturer is behind a lot of choices. Look at the rather cheap commodity steel that German makers like Zwilling and Wusthof use even for knives that are not all that cheap.

I'm well aware of those Zwilling and Wusthof personally I think I'd despise them . Seeing that X50CrMoV15 or "German high carbon stainless steel" on kitchen knives is an instantaneous turn off for me. I personally use a Tojiro white number 2 santoku that I bought off amazon for 50 bucks. I can say I'm infinitely more happy with it. I just don't get knives that aren't sharp. Even if every single other design element is perfect and the handle feels perfect in hand it's all for naught if your knife won't cut anything. At least that's how I feel about it. I can replace cheap handles and sand down sharp spines and I can oil my blade to prevent rust but I know I can't produce a quality blade. I know I'm a very different kind of consumer to most people but I still don't get how people will spend so much on a Wustof when at least in my experience a Wustof won't even cut carrots or cucumbers well and certainly not onions. I just feel like I'm using a wedge when I'm handling those.

 

[Alpha Knife Supply]

I found it interesting that Zwilling uses an AEB-L clone in some of their higher end knives. There are other knife manufacturers also. They use proprietary bladesteel names. The result is people do not recognize the alloy.

Voestalpine is a huge company.

Chuck

 

[jdm61]

That 420 type steel is darn near a miracle steel in the right hands. Zwilling has aged to HT it so that you can flatspot And chip the very same edge. The best job that I have seen with that steel is my old Forschner/Victorinox, It will get quite sharp even on rudimentary gear like a belt grinder. It won't stay that sharp for long but it will get there.

I'm well aware of those Zwilling and Wusthof personally I think I'd despise them . Seeing that X50CrMoV15 or "German high carbon stainless steel" on kitchen knives is an instantaneous turn off for me. I personally use a Tojiro white number 2 santoku that I bought off amazon for 50 bucks. I can say I'm infinitely more happy with it. I just don't get knives that aren't sharp. Even if every single other design element is perfect and the handle feels perfect in hand it's all for naught if your knife won't cut anything. At least that's how I feel about it. I can replace cheap handles and sand down sharp spines and I can oil my blade to prevent rust but I know I can't produce a quality blade. I know I'm a very different kind of consumer to most people but I still don't get how people will spend so much on a Wustof when at least in my experience a Wustof won't even cut carrots or cucumbers well and certainly not onions. I just feel like I'm using a wedge when I'm handling those.

 

[MG74]

I found it interesting that Zwilling uses an AEB-L clone in some of their higher end knives. There are other knife manufacturers also. They use proprietary bladesteel names. The result is people do not recognize the alloy.

Voestalpine is a huge company.

Chuck

I'm not surprised that they do. I really don't like identical blade steels that have proprietary names. It feels like they're trying to pull the wool over my eyes whenever they do that. Man zwillings cost so much to get in anything but their baseline X50 steel. I'll take my weirdly made and reactive tojiro any day. 150 CAD for cryo treated 440C? I mean it's nice but damn would hurt my soul to buy.

 

[MG74]

That 420 type steel is darn near a miracle steel in the right hands. Zwilling has aged to HT it so that you can flatspot And chip the very same edge. The best job that I have seen with that steel is my old Forschner/Victorinox, It will get quite sharp even on rudimentary gear like a belt grinder. It won't stay that sharp for long but it will get there.

Oh, I'm sure they've got the heat treatment down to a fine science at least I can't see how else they'd ever get away with using it and still somehow have a good reputation but for me, I can't see why I'd ever buy one. If I was spending that kinda money why not get a shun classic? I mean VG-Max on a nice comfortable knife that I find very visually attractive. If I'm spending 150 bucks that's what I'd be tempted to put my money on.

 

[jdm61]

Some of the Japanese companies use either BU or Sandvik steel and push "Swedish steel" as an upgrade even if they don't tell you what it is. IIRC, the Misono UX-10 line is AEB-L/13C26. There is even a scandalous rumor going around that Shigefusa uses a Swedish carbon steel for the cores of their blades, not Hitachi White or Blue.

I found it interesting that Zwilling uses an AEB-L clone in some of their higher end knives. There are other knife manufacturers also. They use proprietary bladesteel names. The result is people do not recognize the alloy.

Voestalpine is a huge company.

Chuck

 

[jdm61]

I have heard that those VG steels can be finicky and do not suffer bad HT well. I had what is by all accounts a good VG-10 knife, a Hattori 270mm "forum knife" suji. I have been told that others do not get that steel quite so much.

Oh, I'm sure they've got the heat treatment down to a fine science at least I can't see how else they'd ever get away with using it and still somehow have a good reputation but for me, I can't see why I'd ever buy one. If I was spending that kinda money why not get a shun classic? I mean VG-Max on a nice comfortable knife that I find very visually attractive. If I'm spending 150 bucks that's what I'd be tempted to put my money on.

 

[MG74]

Some of the Japanese companies use either BU or Sandvik steel and push "Swedish steel" as an upgrade even if they don't tell you what it is. IIRC, the Misono UX-10 line is AEB-L/13C26. There is even a scandalous rumor going around that Shigefusa uses a Swedish carbon steel for the cores of their blades, not Hitachi White or Blue.

Really? That's rather daring of a company (in a bad way) a) mislabelling steel and b) Substituting Hitachi white with a Swedish carbon steel huh. I think it'd be rather easy to catch you on that lie. I can tell my knives are Hitachi white because they rust like nothing else I've ever handled . Maybe they could get away with labeling Swedish carbon as blue steel. That one rusts more like a typical tool steel.

 

[MG74]

I have heard that those VG steels can be finicky and do not suffer bad HT well. I had what is by all accounts a good VG-10 knife, a Hattori 270mm "forum knife" suji. I have been told that others do not get that steel quite so much.

I did get my mother a shun sora VG-10 knife. She liked my white steel kitchen knife but wanted something stainless and so far my experience with that one is rather good. I'd expect shun's to have good heat treatment's but then again I've never handled custom VG-10 so I don't just how well or poorly it can perform really. In fact, I've never handled a custom knife other than my own 1084 so I don't know what I'm missing out on yet.

 

[MG74]

On a side note my Ruike knife just arrived and so far I can say I'm really impressed with it so far . I'll definitely be putting it through its paces and when I find the time I'll test edge retention. It certainly feels very high end and looks quite nice.

 

[JTknives]

AEB-L preforms really well because it really just doesn't want to be flat.

LOL I love it

 

[MG74]

I took my ruike to my 0.5 micron diamond loaded leather strop and after 4 passes and then a few passes on a hanging denim strop to clean it up it's definitely already sharper than I've been able to get any of my kitchen knives. I tried the 3 finger test and it cut into my hand without me even feeling it. oops, I guess. I've also tested out the stainlessness of the knife. According to sandvik's spec sheet if it's improperly heat-treated in one way (too low hardening temps) it'll lose its stainlessness. It seems to be fairly stainless and around what 14C28N should be. The knife is certainly super sharp so I'd image it's fairly hard although that's speculation. I would need to come up with some sort of rough hardness test to see if the heat treat was done incorrectly in the other way with too high hardening temps which would lower its hardness and reduce its wear resistance at least according to Sandvik.

 

[MG74]

My experience thus far with this Ruike has 100% convinced me that I'm gunna order some AEBL from Canadian knifemaker and some 14C28N directly from sandvick (they offer that in Canada which I think is awesome) and getting it professionally heat treated. I'm gunna try a kitchen knife out of AEBL and a fixed blade of some sort from 14C28N and perhaps a kitchen knife from the 14C28N as well. I might even experiment with some of that new stuff Nitro V if I can find enough info on it that I'm comfortable picking it up.

 

[MG74]

Perhaps this is a little off topic but what do you guys think of Nitro-V? Anyone have any success with it? I saw one impressive video of a guy who made machete out of the stuff and chopped a few trees down and chopped through an old metal ladder with supposedly no edge chipping or deformation.

 

[AVigil]

Perhaps this is a little off topic but what do you guys think of Nitro-V? Anyone have any success with it? I saw one impressive video of a guy who made machete out of the stuff and chopped a few trees down and chopped through an old metal ladder with supposedly no edge chipping or deformation.

AEB-L variant with some nitrogen and vanadium.

Have seen it crack on several makers in heat treat but the blades that made it through heat treat seems like aeb-l to me