Why do simple stainless steels preform so differently?

I don't think Shigefusa "substituted" From what I read, they have used that Swedish steel for a long time. Like Chuck said, folks like Zwilling are calling their AEB-L/13C26 "FC61" but its the same stuff. They are a bit more vague about the source than Shigefusa and some other makers. But they are a German company selling knives designed in Washington and made in Japan out of Swedish/Austrian steel, so there is already a bit of confusion.;)
 
I don't think Shigefusa "substituted" From what I read, they have used that Swedish steel for a long time. Like Chuck said, folks like Zwilling are calling their AEB-L/13C26 "FC61" but its the same stuff. They are a bit more vague about the source than Shigefusa and some other makers. But they are a German company selling knives designed in Washington and made in Japan out of Swedish/Austrian steel, so there is already a bit of confusion.;)

Global markets eh :P. I’m still rather amazed with just how well these steels preform. I also have to admit I’m a total sucker for impracticality sharp hyper polished edges. I know steels like m4 are monstrous preformers with toothy edges but hyper polished edges give me a certain sense of satisfaction and I love it when they stay that sharp for a while.
 
I am sure that they sell the Zwilling Kramer line elsewhere, but it was clearly targeted at the US market. But you are right about the global market. Even folks like Wusthof have super premium pieces that they sell over there and also over here through Williams-Sonoma, etc
Global markets eh :p. I’m still rather amazed with just how well these steels preform. I also have to admit I’m a total sucker for impracticality sharp hyper polished edges. I know steels like m4 are monstrous preformers with toothy edges but hyper polished edges give me a certain sense of satisfaction and I love it when they stay that sharp for a while.
 
In case anyone’s interested I did actually find some really interesting research into these steels that explains why I find them so personally attractive. It might also help to know that I personally use my knives for woodwork and cooking far more often than anything else.

According to this information the AEB-L-like steels excell when properly heat treated in having extremely small and extremely hard carbides which are several times smaller than the carbides achieved with high tech CPM processes. This allows the steel to be sharpened to very aggressively thin edges and and maintain them (according to this research they can become even sharper and thinner than your carbon steels like 1095). I know there are tons of really awesome high tech super steels but if you want to really push the boundaries on aggressive edge geometries with sub 30 degree inclusive angles you simply can’t achieve that with your traditional super steels. On a side-note I think perhaps LC200N or perhaps Bohler's new Vanax? is the most high tech of this class of steel that has proven performance although it seems that optimal heat treating parameters are by far the most important thing when it comes to how this class of steel performs and most of the improvements that have been made to these steels are in corrosion resistance rather than toughness or wear resistance although I could be wrong on that.

I really like pushing the boundaries on sharp edges because personally nothing satisfies me more than carving wood with my knife and being able to get those lovely thin shavings and leaving behind a surface finish that is superior to anything you get with sandpaper. Also out of curiosity if all this is true then why aren't AEB-L and friends used in plane blades and chisels at all?

http://www.cliffstamp.com/knives/articles/edge_stability_review.html

http://www.cliffstamp.com/knives/reviews/blade_materials.html#S_12C27
 
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I am not a plane expert, what is the typical included angle of sharpening of a plane blade? Can we say 24°-30°?
Maybe in this application, for cutting wood, a bit more wear resistance wins above the ability to go down to 19°-22° edge included angles.
 
" ... Also out of curiosity if all this is true then why aren't AEB-L and friends used in plane blades and chisels at all? ...."

Because a plane iron has to keep the edge. You can't disassemble the plane and re-hone the blade every few cuts. Simple steels with high carbon, and a tad of tungsten/vanadium, are the usual suspects for plane blades. 1095, W2, Hitachi white, etc.

While AEB-L can achieve an edge approaching 3 microns, that isn't a very strong edge. This is why your razor blade only lasts a few shaves.

Lets use some large scale imagery to explain it. You have several materials to make a blade edge out of. One is made from concrete blocks, one from bricks, one from gravel, and ones from sand. The binder is mortar. The mortar is the steel, and the material is the carbides.

1) The concrete block blade edge will be very strong, but with the large joints ( grain boundaries), it will crack fairly easily. Also, the edge can not get very thin, as once you get it tapered to the size of a concrete block the blocks just fall out ... leaving a very rough edge. So, this is a very tough edge, but not a very high sharpness edge. It is difficult to re-sharpen this edge because it takes a lot of energy to shear away the concrete blocks and make a new edge. This is what the steels with lots of large carbide formers creates. D-2 or the high alloy super steels would be examples.

2) The brick blade will be stronger, because the joints are both stronger and smaller. The edge can get finer because the bricks are smaller than the concrete blocks, but still is limited to the size of the bricks. It is a bit easier to sharpen this blade, as the bricks are smaller and somewhat easier to remove in abrading. This is what most general knife steels are like. O-1, 52100, etc. would be like this.

3) The blade made from pebbles and small rocks will have a finer edge, but there is some tradeoff, and the joints between them ( grain boundaries) are not as well arranged nor tightly bound together. The edge will be the size of the pebbles. This is a great cutter, but not necessarily as strong, and the edge can be damaged fairly easily with abuse. This is a pretty easy edge to sharpen, but you have to take care not to damage it by making it too thin and having pieces of the matrix fall off. This is what whittling and culinary blades are like. Steels like 1095, W2. Hitachi white, etc. fit this category.

4) The blade with the sand and mortar make-up will have the finest edge possible. The size of the sand is the only restriction as to how thin you can shape it. But the tradeoff is that at that thinness and with the very small and weak joints between the sand, it will wear away fast ... and become a wider and duller blade. The good thing is that it is easy to abrade the sand back to a sharp edge. This is AEB-L. When you want the sharpest edge, but can tolerate the short edge life ... AEB-L is the steel you want.

So, as you can see, there is a place for AEB-L, but it is not the panacea for making knife blades. For blades that can be easily touched up regularly ( kitchen blades) it works well.
 
AEB-L would make a perfectly fine plane blade. It has edge stability equal to and sometimes superior to 1095, W2, 1095, and white steel while also having superior wear resistance.
 
I am not a plane expert, what is the typical included angle of sharpening of a plane blade? Can we say 24°-30°?
Maybe in this application, for cutting wood, a bit more wear resistance wins above the ability to go down to 19°-22° edge included angles.
" ... Also out of curiosity if all this is true then why aren't AEB-L and friends used in plane blades and chisels at all? ...."

Because a plane iron has to keep the edge. You can't disassemble the plane and re-hone the blade every few cuts. Simple steels with high carbon, and a tad of tungsten/vanadium, are the usual suspects for plane blades. 1095, W2, Hitachi white, etc.

While AEB-L can achieve an edge approaching 3 microns, that isn't a very strong edge. This is why your razor blade only lasts a few shaves.

Lets use some large scale imagery to explain it. You have several materials to make a blade edge out of. One is made from concrete blocks, one from bricks, one from gravel, and ones from sand. The binder is mortar. The mortar is the steel, and the material is the carbides.

1) The concrete block blade edge will be very strong, but with the large joints ( grain boundaries), it will crack fairly easily. Also, the edge can not get very thin, as once you get it tapered to the size of a concrete block the blocks just fall out ... leaving a very rough edge. So, this is a very tough edge, but not a very high sharpness edge. It is difficult to re-sharpen this edge because it takes a lot of energy to shear away the concrete blocks and make a new edge. This is what the steels with lots of large carbide formers creates. D-2 or the high alloy super steels would be examples.

2) The brick blade will be stronger, because the joints are both stronger and smaller. The edge can get finer because the bricks are smaller than the concrete blocks, but still is limited to the size of the bricks. It is a bit easier to sharpen this blade, as the bricks are smaller and somewhat easier to remove in abrading. This is what most general knife steels are like. O-1, 52100, etc. would be like this.

3) The blade made from pebbles and small rocks will have a finer edge, but there is some tradeoff, and the joints between them ( grain boundaries) are not as well arranged nor tightly bound together. The edge will be the size of the pebbles. This is a great cutter, but not necessarily as strong, and the edge can be damaged fairly easily with abuse. This is a pretty easy edge to sharpen, but you have to take care not to damage it by making it too thin and having pieces of the matrix fall off. This is what whittling and culinary blades are like. Steels like 1095, W2. Hitachi white, etc. fit this category.

4) The blade with the sand and mortar make-up will have the finest edge possible. The size of the sand is the only restriction as to how thin you can shape it. But the tradeoff is that at that thinness and with the very small and weak joints between the sand, it will wear away fast ... and become a wider and duller blade. The good thing is that it is easy to abrade the sand back to a sharp edge. This is AEB-L. When you want the sharpest edge, but can tolerate the short edge life ... AEB-L is the steel you want.

So, as you can see, there is a place for AEB-L, but it is not the panacea for making knife blades. For blades that can be easily touched up regularly ( kitchen blades) it works well.

While this explanation makes sense to me in an anecdotal sense I just haven’t seen any evidence out there that with optimal heat treats aebl is any less wear resistant than any of your basic carbons and according to the research I read and testing I observed it’s actuality a class just above your 1095s and W2s. Additionally, this explanation doesn’t really hold up in the sense that your strongest man made materials are composites like carbon fiber and g10. You wouldn’t think hair and mortar would make a damn strong material but that’s essentially your carbon fibre. The one catch of course is the optimum heat treat regimen seems to be an incredible pain in the ass that involves at least two ovens with one running with a preheat temp and the other at aus temp and a plate quench that then has to be continued straight into LN2 for an hour followed by a 2 hour temper into more LN2 into another 2 hour temp with a quench in water after the temp to finish it. I think your typical razor blade not lasting has more to do with the fact that there’s no way in hell disposable razor blades are given that complex of HT. I agree it’s not quite the panacea but I think they are very close to it and that the more futuristic nitride based based alloys which are the next evolution of your aebl like steels (sand and mortar steels) like Vanax will probably take over in a lot of the high end products.
 
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Now I'll qualify this by saying its with commercially available plane blades and not ones I've made, but I found the available A2 blades nicer than the traditional blades which I'd assume would be somewhere in the 1080 to W2 range.

Just my opinion and I could be wrong, but I'd personally go for A2 over aeb-L if I was going to make a plane blade
 
Now I'll qualify this by saying its with commercially available plane blades and not ones I've made, but I found the available A2 blades nicer than the traditional blades which I'd assume would be somewhere in the 1080 to W2 range.

Just my opinion and I could be wrong, but I'd personally go for A2 over aeb-L if I was going to make a plane blade

A2 is really nice for most of your working planes as I understand it but most woodworkers seem to prefer O1 blades in their finishing blades or any tool that they intend to use the cut as the final finish like some chisels a smoothing planes which is where I see your razor steels probably being better than O1.
 
MG74,
There is plenty of research and info on why AEB-L is good for thin slicers that can be discarded, and why a tougher steel is better for plane blades. Romal Landes has written a book on it (literally). He has spent his career working on AEB-L and designing it for razor blades. Much of my explanation comes from some of his lectures. If your German is good, pick up a copy of Messerklingen und stahl. I really hope Roman will have it translated someday.

As pointed out, A-2 is a good alloy for slicing tools that need some toughness. It has considerable alloying, but still has a fairly foine grain with proper HT. Even with the very best HT, AEB-L is simpler a hypo-eutectiod steel with free chromium. None of that creates toughness. HT won't change physics.

Take a look at this graph to see where A-2 has the advantage over AEB-L for a tool like a plane blade. I also put in 1070 and 1095 to show where the others have much different alloying. While the carbon is about the same for 1070 and AEB-L, and for 1095 and A-2, the alloying makes significant changes. In the case of A-2 it is much tougher than 1095. In the case of AEB-L, it has the free chromium.
http://www.zknives.com/knives/steels/steelgraph.php?nm=AEB-L, A-2, 1095, 1070&hrn=1&gm=0
 
MG74,
There is plenty of research and info on why AEB-L is good for thin slicers that can be discarded, and why a tougher steel is better for plane blades. Romal Landes has written a book on it (literally). He has spent his career working on AEB-L and designing it for razor blades. Much of my explanation comes from some of his lectures. If your German is good, pick up a copy of Messerklingen und stahl. I really hope Roman will have it translated someday.

As pointed out, A-2 is a good alloy for slicing tools that need some toughness. It has considerable alloying, but still has a fairly foine grain with proper HT. Even with the very best HT, AEB-L is simpler a hypo-eutectiod steel with free chromium. None of that creates toughness. HT won't change physics.

Take a look at this graph to see where A-2 has the advantage over AEB-L for a tool like a plane blade. I also put in 1070 and 1095 to show where the others have much different alloying. While the carbon is about the same for 1070 and AEB-L, and for 1095 and A-2, the alloying makes significant changes. In the case of A-2 it is much tougher than 1095. In the case of AEB-L, it has the free chromium.
http://www.zknives.com/knives/steels/steelgraph.php?nm=AEB-L, A-2, 1095, 1070&hrn=1&gm=0

I would probably read it all if I knew any german :P. Sadly I'm a french and Arabic guy which, while cool to say I don't find much interesting engineering info in those languages.
 
MG74,
There is plenty of research and info on why AEB-L is good for thin slicers that can be discarded, and why a tougher steel is better for plane blades. Romal Landes has written a book on it (literally). He has spent his career working on AEB-L and designing it for razor blades. Much of my explanation comes from some of his lectures. If your German is good, pick up a copy of Messerklingen und stahl. I really hope Roman will have it translated someday.

As pointed out, A-2 is a good alloy for slicing tools that need some toughness. It has considerable alloying, but still has a fairly foine grain with proper HT. Even with the very best HT, AEB-L is simpler a hypo-eutectiod steel with free chromium. None of that creates toughness. HT won't change physics.

Take a look at this graph to see where A-2 has the advantage over AEB-L for a tool like a plane blade. I also put in 1070 and 1095 to show where the others have much different alloying. While the carbon is about the same for 1070 and AEB-L, and for 1095 and A-2, the alloying makes significant changes. In the case of A-2 it is much tougher than 1095. In the case of AEB-L, it has the free chromium.
http://www.zknives.com/knives/steels/steelgraph.php?nm=AEB-L, A-2, 1095, 1070&hrn=1&gm=0
Roman Landes rates the toughness of AEB-L very high.
 
AEB-L would make a perfectly fine plane blade. It has edge stability equal to and sometimes superior to 1095, W2, 1095, and white steel while also having superior wear resistance.

That is good to know. One day I will have to make one for my plane and give it a try on some tonkin bamboo
 
Larrin, I am probably using the wrong word. I should has said edge wear, not toughness. This is somewhat semantica, but it can cloud an online discussion.

What I got from discussions with Roman was that while AEB-L is reasonably tough, at the thinness of very fine edges it will still wear away fairly rapidly. The other steels don't get as thin at the edge due to grain and carbide size, so they wear longer. The good part is tat AEB-L abrades easily in sharpening, so touching up the edge is fast and simple.

On an aside, some of Roman's AEB-L test blades were honed and polished to 50,000 grit and were so thin that your fingernail would deflect the edge considerably. These were done by hours of careful sanding/honing/polishing.
 
Larrin, I am probably using the wrong word. I should has said edge wear, not toughness. This is somewhat semantica, but it can cloud an online discussion.

What I got from discussions with Roman was that while AEB-L is reasonably tough, at the thinness of very fine edges it will still wear away fairly rapidly. The other steels don't get as thin at the edge due to grain and carbide size, so they wear longer. The good part is tat AEB-L abrades easily in sharpening, so touching up the edge is fast and simple.

On an aside, some of Roman's AEB-L test blades were honed and polished to 50,000 grit and were so thin that your fingernail would deflect the edge considerably. These were done by hours of careful sanding/honing/polishing.

Indeed, but doesn't that have it's place? I know japanese wood workers for example work on softer woods preferring super fine cuts and planed surface finishes like in that japanese planing competition where they attempt to take the finest shavings possible off of wood. Supposedly the record for the competition is 3 micron thin shavings and recently the winner had a 6 micron thin shaving I think? Anyways I'm very very excited to see this new Vanax SC steel. I saw on one forum the BU is working alongside some well known knife makers to develop an optimal heat treat protocol for knives. Part of me is very tempted to buy a bit of it because I happen to be very lucky and I live basically beside one of BUs Canadian steel stores. I think I might make a few knives and let them sit around unfinished till that information is released. In theory the metal is full of vanadium nitrides which are supposedly very tough and fine grain increasing wear resistance without sacrificing any of the properties associated with your razor steels and increasing stainlessness.
 
Well, if the edge life doesn't matter beyond one cut in soft wod, I would recommend a plane blade made of obsidian. It can be taken to the sharpest edge I know of, and polished to 1/4 micron smoothness (100,000 grit). It won't last long, but boy would it be sharp :)
 
Well, if the edge life doesn't matter beyond one cut in soft wod, I would recommend a plane blade made of obsidian. It can be taken to the sharpest edge I know of, and polished to 1/4 micron smoothness (100,000 grit). It won't last long, but boy would it be sharp :)


Alright ya got me there :P. Fair point. Although I'm not sure obsidian would make it through one cut.
 
Obsidian was, is still is, used for scalpel blades. I have several of them. It was used for knives and cutting tools for millenia.

Just an FYI for those who like trivia:

Ruby is also used for very fine cutting blades. Some specialty medical cutters and leather knives have ruby blades. The leather swivel blades were expensivem and I think the manufacturer stopped making them. They were called something like Rubyat. They are highly sought after by some leather workers. It iswas also somewhat fragile and could be chipped by careless use and storage. It had to be sent to the manufacturer or a good lapidary to be re-edged.

Some ophthalmic surgical cutters have tiny diamond blades.
 
Like I've said before everything I say probably isn't worth very much. I've not got much experience in this yet but it just seems like these steels are very underused given how balanced they are performance wise and I'm perhaps not the only one. Several times in the cliffstamp research I read he says many researchers at least at the time saw AEB-L as the optimum balanced steel for knife blades.

"From this discussion it appears that the two steels discussed in Chapter 13, Uddeholm AEB-L and Sandvik 12C27, along with the similar steels of Table B1, (DD400 and AUS6) provide the best combination of properties desired in a knife blade:

(1) An as-quenched hardness in the 63 to 64 Rc range which should provide high wear resistance.

(2) An adequate level of Cr in the austenite formed prior to quenching to provide good corrosion resistance, a bit above the minimum 12 %Cr.

(3) The presence of fine arrays of the K1 + K2 chromium carbides to enhance wear resistance plus the absence of the larger primary chrome carbides that promote pull-out at sharpened edges."
 
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