Why does CPM-M4 dominate in national cutting competitions?

[Lycosa]

With the correct edge geometry, an INFI blade would be at the Top.

 

[Halfneck]

How does cutting manilla rope indicate how a certain steel will handle the other tests at a cutting competition? I can understand edge retention being demonstrated, but not chopping through a 2x4.

 

[Mike Carter Custom Knives]

I could address steels for EDC further but that is getting off topic. The question was "Why does CPM-M4 dominate in national cutting competitions?"

The simple answer is because it works and it wins. I don't know if anyone has tried ZDP or Infi. It sounds like a great opportunity for someone to have a knife made from them and sweep away the competition if they are the end-all steel that some claim them to be. I would really be rather surprised if they haven't been tried.

Of course a big part of winning is technique but perhaps someone could have one of the experienced cutters to use the knife and see what happens. I would be interested to see how they stack up.

 

[nozh2002]

How does cutting manilla rope indicate how a certain steel will handle the other tests at a cutting competition? I can understand edge retention being demonstrated, but not chopping through a 2x4.

I was replying to Mike statement on 440C and CM154 and his view on what is good for edc knife - this replay was not related to chopping competition. So in this context as I sad some of simple steel shows good an bad results as well as some super steel show good an bad result - so it is hard to generalize.

Thanks, Vassili.

 

[theonew]

2. Yuna Hard II ZDP-189 (second run)
10. Yuna Hard II ZDP189

Even the same steel on the same knife shows vastly different results, so it is hard to draw any conclusions

 

[nozh2002]

I could address steels for EDC further but that is getting off topic. The question was "Why does CPM-M4 dominate in national cutting competitions?"

The simple answer is because it works and it wins. I don't know if anyone has tried ZDP or Infi. It sounds like a great opportunity for someone to have a knife made from them and sweep away the competition if they are the end-all steel that some claim them to be. I would really be rather surprised if they haven't been tried.

Of course a big part of winning is technique but perhaps someone could have one of the experienced cutters to use the knife and see what happens. I would be interested to see how they stack up.

I absolutely agreed that because it works and it wins.

But until it is proven that same knifemakers try ZDP189 on competition knife and reject it after testing - you can not say that CPM M4 is better. Right now we may for sure say that it is better then other steels from same competition (again it depends on who is competing etc...).

Thanks, Vassili.

 

[nozh2002]

Even the same steel on the same knife shows vastly different results, so it is hard to draw any conclusions

Simple - check my thread. First run always different then 10th or 27th, simply because you learn better in time. Do you remember how did you drive car first time? If you check thread you may learn more - if you want

Thanks, Vassili.

 

[theonew]

Simple - check my thread. First run always different then 10th or 27th, simply because you learn better in time.

And yet you still feel comfortable making the claims you make, even though all the steels haven't been "tested" again after you supposedly learned better

Another possibility is that your tests are grossly inaccurate. Perhaps a third test of the Yuna Hard would reveal an even greater variation.

 

[bchan77]

Thanks Mike for sharing your knowledge and insights about the knife competitions and especially your impartial presentation and strict adherence to the topic. Your posts have renewed my interest to continue following this thread, unlike some people's presenting a particular steel is the best steel out there as if it is fact when in reality it is only his (unshared) opinion.

 

[nozh2002]

And yet you still feel comfortable making the claims you make, even though all the steels haven't been "tested" again after you supposedly learned better

Another possibility is that your tests are grossly inaccurate. Perhaps a third test of the Yuna Hard would reveal an even greater variation.

Are you even bother to read my answer? What is so difficult there to understand? Let me try this again, hope you will get it.

First testing - and that was Yuna, was not only testing but as well establishing test procedure. I did it first time learning during testing on how to do this as well. In time when I get used to what I am doing, when I establish procedure, after cut rope 5000 times I retest my first knife to be sure it has fair treatment.

Do you understand this. Should I explain it more? Let me know if you are uncomfortable reading this and I will try my best again.

It was all explained in thread I had about that testing and DogOfWar who is among very little number of people who done some real work as well agreed that first result always different then after you get used to what are you doing.

When you first time drive car, before you do not get used to it, it is pretty scare and difficult, but after month you feel much more confident and can do parking etc much better then first time.

Is this clear analogy? Please, let me know - I will try to came with other examples, if you need to.

May be you even try to do some testing yourself - it will be best way to understand what I am talking about.

Thanks, Vassili.

 

[theonew]

First testing - and that was Yuna, was not only testing but as well establishing test procedure. I did it first time learning during testing on how to do this as well. In time when I get used to what I am doing, when I establish procedure, after cut rope 5000 times I retest my first knife to be sure it has fair treatment.

Do you understand this. Should I explain it more? Let me know if you are uncomfortable reading this and I will try my best again.

Um yes, I don't understand. You retested first knife to be sure it has fair treatment and lo and behold the results are radically different. You haven't retested any of the other knives yet feel comfortable making claims regarding comparative edge retention results. Better approach would have been to retest the same knife as many times as it took to get results that were at least in the same ball park. Then start testing other steels and then start publishing conclusions. You are putting the cart before the horse. Perhaps we need a translator?

 

[H0B0J0]

Wait, so all the knives were only tested once, except the Yuna...which was tested twice?

and the results between the first and second tests were 8 "places" different?

Doesn't that say that the other knives tested by cutting manila rope should be tested twice...just like the yuna was...to assure accurate results?

What was the deciding factor in "sharpness" as well? What determined how the first was sharper than the second place knife? More hair whittling?

 

[AF]

There's no winning an argument with Vassili.

 

[Halfneck]

There's no winning an argument with Vassili.

No, but it is interesting to read.

If someone did make a cutting competition blade out of ZDP-189 and it chipped, then he would just chalk it up to them making it improperly. Improper heat treat, Rockwell is off, or whatever rather than admit he might be wrong.

And Vassili, before you go throwing links at me & quoting my post back at me, I'm just poking fun at you. You are very passionate about knives & knife related knowledge, just sometimes you need to listen to what the other posters are saying & not try & force your opinion on us like gospel.

 

[hardheart]

What was the deciding factor in "sharpness" as well? What determined how the first was sharper than the second place knife? More hair whittling?

amount of force needed to cut through light thread, measured on a postal scale.
I agree the tests need to be repeated to get a good average and to account for better/worse days when cutting, but it's an assload of testing, thousands of cuts to repeat. I find the most value just looking at the general trends in dulling with so many examples, more than comparing one steel to another, where each is checked only once. The very fast initial drop in sharpness then the plateau is pretty consistent.

 

[cotdt]

amount of force needed to cut through light thread, measured on a postal scale.
I agree the tests need to be repeated to get a good average and to account for better/worse days when cutting, but it's an assload of testing, thousands of cuts to repeat. I find the most value just looking at the general trends in dulling with so many examples, more than comparing one steel to another, where each is checked only once. The very fast initial drop in sharpness then the plateau is pretty consistent.

Yes the sharpness measurement technique is pretty consistent, but the rope-slicing is not. The edge retention depends a lot on your pressure, slicing speed, and technique in general. There is just too much variability, but I do appreciate Vassili's testing and think more people should run their own tests. I would like to see Vassili perform at least 3 trials for each knife and calculate confidence intervals.

 

[bchan77]

You are very passionate about knives & knife related knowledge, just sometimes you need to listen to what the other posters are saying & not try & force your opinion on us like gospel.

To be passionate is good, to be non-receptive to comments is not so good.

The people in this forum are not stupid. Many of us have experience handling/using/making knives. If someone comes up with a bold blanket statement that 'steel X is the best out there, period' he better has in hand ready irrefutable proof based on solid, verifiable tests that eliminate/minimize human biases/errors. Otherwise merely repeating the blanket statement when others have already pinpointed/questioned the weaknesses/dubious areas of the tests will not convince any more people to your side.

An educated debate can be beneficial to everybody -- we all can learn something from others. Shutting your ears to constructive criticisms will not bring progress, or, for that matter, credibility.

 

[Jason B.]

Um yes, I don't understand. You retested first knife to be sure it has fair treatment and lo and behold the results are radically different. You haven't retested any of the other knives yet feel comfortable making claims regarding comparative edge retention results. Better approach would have been to retest the same knife as many times as it took to get results that were at least in the same ball park. Then start testing other steels and then start publishing conclusions. You are putting the cart before the horse. Perhaps we need a translator?

LoL, and D2 beat em all even though 10v has 5x the wear resistance.

I thought this thread was about M4 and who cares what ZDP can do, its a good steel but I highly doubt it will ever be used in a cutting comp.

 

[nozh2002]

Um yes, I don't understand. You retested first knife to be sure it has fair treatment and lo and behold the results are radically different. You haven't retested any of the other knives yet feel comfortable making claims regarding comparative edge retention results. Better approach would have been to retest the same knife as many times as it took to get results that were at least in the same ball park. Then start testing other steels and then start publishing conclusions. You are putting the cart before the horse. Perhaps we need a translator?

Oh. This is great - I think my method is disclosed to almost absolute level - please do your retesting with better approach.

If you do not want to do hard work - then why you are demanding more work from me? Go ahead and do it if you need more data!

But I seriously doubt that someone like you will ever do something real which is harder then typing keyboard.

Until then only results existed is what I did and like you or not there are no other results available. So until you have your own results - you have to live with mine testing and your typing.

Thanks, Vassili.

 

[H0B0J0]

Until then only results existed is what I did and like you or not there are no other results available.

Which does NOT make your test the end all be all final word on quality of steels.

I applaud your efforts, but stand by my doubts of your test's complete accuracy, based on the fact that after retesting 1 of your knives, your test produced highly varying results.

Whats to say that retesting your favorite Dozier D2 blade won't offer equally varying results (perhaps it won't rate as highly the second time around?)