Why does every one hate 440c stainless steel so much ?

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The Mastiff said:
I honestly don't care for 440C. It's my least favorite steel in fact. It all started when I was young and still poor and tried thinning 440C on a soft Arkansas. It defied me. It laughed at me. :) So, I hold grudges.

Now I own almost every type of sharpening material in the world and have most common cutlery steels laying around to play with it sure enough doesn't defy me. I still remain unimpressed though. It's been surpassed in every way by stain resistant steels. It doesn't take a great edge. It's not as tough...in fact it's probably one of the least tough modern stainless. It does the rust resistance thing really well admittedly.

Still, I'll stay with my preferred tool steels & high speed steels. About the only stainless I really carry is my Endura in VG10. Now though I can carry a Super Blue Endura though so even VG10 , which I do respect, isn't really needed any more. :)

And no, 440C was never a "super" steel. That began with 154cm/ATS 34, then 440V/S60, ZDP, etc., .... I do prefer a clean 440A ( or aus 6) to 440C. Better grain, tougher edges, etc. BTW , most chinese knives aren't real 440A or C. They are what they are and some are fine but they sure aren't the 440's I know and used a large part of my life.
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It seems I had the same experience in my life!
When I was younger I used a lot of 440c blades from German, from Italy (where I live) and also from Japan, If the sharpening and the grinding was good "out of the box" I had some nice time.
But when I started resharpening my knife (in all the different ways) I was never satisfied with the edge I achieved, and thought to be incapable of resharpening.
Everithing changed with the 154cm, m390 and cpms30v but even with the series of the Swedish steels of Kershaw like 13c26 and so on, and even better with carbon steels that I prefer at all.
When I use and resharp my knives I want the best edge I can get and I never found it with 440c.
Sometime happens that I like knives in 440c, from boker for example, but now I have this mental limit and maybe I'll never buy one of them...
 
I said I won't buy China knives, but looking into Spyderco may change. It's a great Co. so I may look into the Chinese knives from them. I sure it's good. Anyone's opinion would help. Thanks Gary
 
It isn't fear of sharpening that made me dislike 440 series alloys it is extensive experience. Back in the 1960's I had a business going door-to-door sharpening knives. I have done it a lot. My experience predates the proliferation of stainless steel. The older carbon steel blades were so much easier to sharpen than any stainless that you quickly get excellent edges and gain confidence. The Buck 110 in 440C was a bear to sharpen by comparison. There were lots of 420 blades that were softer and easier to sharpen, but most were rather weak. There is a world of difference between AUS-6, AUS-8, AUS-10 or VG10 and the 440 series when you hone to acute razor edges. I don't see how anybody with experience honing could miss the difference. Of course if you are used to similarly intractable alloys like 154CM your frame of reference may be off. I see a world of difference between BG42 and S30V as well, but I can surmount the issues using diamond hones and stropping compounds.
 
The Mastiff said:
Quote , not2sharp: "440-C is a very good cutlery steel and a lot of custom knife makers were using it in the 1970s. It is in the same league as ATS-34, CM-154 and AUS-8. I doubt that anyone can tell the difference from actual use. I would like to see a double bind test to prove me wrong."


You haven't been proven right yet. :)
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Oh but he has, and in spades... In a major and extensive comparative test run in a major knife magazine in the mid-late 90s, maybe "Blade", or a very similar competitor magazine of the time, like "Knives Illustrated", by far the most extensive and scientific steel comparison I have ever seen was made... It even included several of the early CPM steels of that period... I now wish I had kept it all these years later...

Just to give you an idea of how serious the test was, compared to anything you think you might be able to pull off on your own, all the blades were made by the same highly reputable custom knife maker specifically for the test, in over a dozen, maybe two dozen, different steels: Each steel was given a variety of edge angles and even different edge surface finishes, so the total number of blades might have been close to a hundred... Certainly several dozens: These were generic "blank" blades made to the exact same edge angle and surface finish specifications, to eliminate as much as possible all the ludicrous variations most "testing" ignores...

All the blades were hardness-tested to insure the correct heat-treatment was followed. The number of cuts and pressure per cut was rigorously followed...

Maybe a high "median" hardness like 58 was used on all blades, but there might have been some blades made to the specific "optimal" hardness if it could perform better... I can't remember, but the effort to eliminate all variables was most impressive and detailed...

The results left little to the imagination: Against all the other high end steels, both carbon and stainless, including specifically 154 CM and ATS 34, and two of the early CPM steels, 440C absolutely blew everything else to bits on a huge variety of materials, and hardly came in second on any of them (I don't think it came in second at all)... On some materials the superiority of 440C in edge-holding was large, almost beyond belief (upwards of 50% difference to the next closest, if not more), and I think these large margins in particular included the usual manilla rope cutting tests...

I've always personally hated 440C, because even with my best stones I could never get a sharp edge on it... Any carbon steel responded so much better to my stones that 440C looked like horrible junk steel in comparison...: I would have to push so hard on it could not even take a good flat sided edge without rolling, and the irregularities of the stone surface meant it was never affected by the stone in the right way, because the steel had dug in those irregularities in the first place...

I have always had the impression with 440C that it "ate" my stone more than the stone was "eating" at it...: Even my best, hardest stone would occasionally take surface creases, and out-of-true flaws, that no other steel would inflict on it, resulting of course in a poorer edge from a less flat stone... Crap steel I tell you...

But then that should tell you something: All of this has changed now that I use coarse diamond hones that always remain perfectly flat: Perfect 440C edges achieved in reasonable time... A true miracle that stuns me every time... 440C is the steel of today because it was ahead of its time, and never appropriate to the era of only sharpening with a stone to begin with...: It is a diamond era steel... Most who underestimate it don't even realize chrome increases hardness and wear resistance...

Whenever I hear "oh it's old and not the best, but it's still ok and can still hold its own", I can only think of the above ultra-rigorous test made long ago (the only test I have ever heard of where all the blades were made specifically for the test to equalize every possible variable), and chuckle at how short memories are... Maybe there is a better steel in raw edge-holding today, but everything being equal, I have yet to see any evidence of this. Never mind that it also outlasts in rust resistance most other steels while you are at it...

Occasionally the real world intrudes and produces an unexpected result, soon to be forgotten, I guess because it "doesn't fit" expectations, and on and on, while so called super steels crumble sideways on a manilla rope (remember that particular Sebenza?)... As an example of that, let me remind the 440 doubters of another unexpected result, when a super-thin 0.5 mm edged Randall Model 14 was pitted against a Busse INFI Sasquatch in the mundane task of chopping concrete blocks: The lowly 440B, maybe helped by the forging process, came out way ahead in edge-holding, with minimal damage... Am I really the only one who wasn't surprised?

Gaston
 
I think 440c production has greatly improved these days. I'm going to be blasphemous here and say that my experiences with legendary bose heat treated buck knives for a certain 80s time period was that those knives completely sucked and even with a diamond hone they sucked. T'was more a myth than a legend. Boker and subsequently most Manufacturers do a really nice 440c these days. Cutco does an awesome 440a.
 
DFCustomKnives said:
Check out what Jay Fisher has to say about 440C. http://www.jayfisher.com/440C_Love_Hate.htm

Personally, I have used it in my knives with very satisfactory results. I recently cut through four live 3" green saplings with a small 440C knife I made and it was still shaving sharp. Good enough for me!
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Thanks very much for this link: It confirms what I always suspected, and is full of excellent facts and observations. It should practically be required reading for any knife fan, particularly with regards to the reality of 440C.

Gaston
 
I'll give you some facts !
Don't ever confuse 440C with 440A ,or 440B .
440C is a good knife steel . However it was modified [improved ] by Clymax Molybdenum Co as 154CM [yes that's where the CM comes from ! ] Sold to Crucible who improved it again as CPM 154 !!
So it's 440C=> 154CM => CPM 154 ! Each is an improvement to the previous. 440C is nice but CPM 154 is VERY nice !
 
I formed an impression of 440C being kind of a difficult steel a long time ago - hard to sharpen, not really tough enough for big fixed blade. It was just an impression I got from reading about different steel choices. Clearly the stuff makes good knives, but it always had this mixed reputation.

S30V has also left a similar impression - a bunch of folks think it (and S35V) are the bees knees, and then there's all the complaints about chipping. How does one steel get such a polar reputation?


Not-so-super steels like ATS34, AEB-L, 12C27, even AUS-8 just don't seem to get the negative reactions of 440C and S30V. Is there some truth in the negatives? Or is it just that 440C and S30V are slightly more extreme alloys, requiring more care to get right?
 
Where have you seen big fixed blades made of 440C demonstrate a lack of toughness? I've seen plenty of broken carbon 1095 BK-9s, but I can't remember specific examples of a 440C blade lacking toughness, except maybe in a vise with a tube pipe over the handle... Maybe stock removal 440C blades don't do great on all-out bending (not so the rare forged ones like Randall, which are 440B anyway), but many big 440C blades are 1/4", so just how much bending can you put in them without a clamped blade and a tube pipe over the handle?

Steel reputation in the knife world probably doesn't amount to much if a low, or even mixed, opinion is held of 440C... The Jay Fisher link provided above demonstrate just how much nonsense is shoveled around in the knife world: The example of the maker who says chrome reduces hardness, edge-holding and wear resistance is just one of the more egregious ones, almost comedy night material...

Gaston
 
My experience with modern 440C by Böker is that it gets surprisingly sharp and holds the edge very well. It's also a pain to reprofile and sharpen with classic stones, that "fat" feeling you know, like the Solingen stainless of the sixties you could never get sharp with your usual whetstone...Ceramic stones are probably the way to go here.
 
I have more than gotten past the difficulty sharpening I had in the 60's and 70's with medium arkansas stones attempting to remove steel and reprofile into something decently sharp. I have Diamonds, SiC, and all manner of stones and systems. I even have work sharp if needed. My feeling is that for a 1% carbon 17% chrome steel I'm not getting the smaller grain structure from powder process steels that would make it tougher and capable of taking slightly sharper edges. This makes it second rate to me when I can get 1% carbon stainless steels like CTS B75 ( BG42 update using powder process), CPM 154, etc. All both more wear resistant and tougher both. NowI haven't tried the CTS version of 440C that is made using the powder process. I might like that, or maybe not but it resolves some or most of my complaints about 440C. It is really anything but a tough steel even compared to more modern of stainless steels. On the other hand stainless will always be less preferable to tool, HSS, cold work, whatever type non stainless steels. They are what I prefer.

joe
 
440C is said to have "big" carbides. I actually wonder if it would be able to hold up an edge thinner than 40° inclusive. I admit my Bökers could have thick blades but I'd like to take at least one down to 30° inclusive to see how it will work. They do perform well at 40° but not as well as others with different stainless steel and the same angle (VG10, CPM154, N690 among others).
 
CRYO DOES NOT REFINE GRAIN !! BTW Benelli shotguns have ' Crio" treated steels .Much of their comments and photos are nonsense. They still make nice shotguns ,I even have one !!

D2 is the steel that has large carbides, not 440C.

40 * angle is a bit large for most blades .
 
I have a Boker Apparo taken down from 70° inclusive (as factory) to around 20° inclusive (that bit of magic cost me 80% of the knife's price at Razoredgeknives)

I expect 440C will do just fine... I have a Randall forged 440B, and that will go down to 10° per side (20°) as well. Both of these will be tested on wood while chopping.

Gaston
 
mete said:
I'll give you some facts !
Don't ever confuse 440C with 440A ,or 440B .
440C is a good knife steel . However it was modified [improved ] by Clymax Molybdenum Co as 154CM [yes that's where the CM comes from ! ] Sold to Crucible who improved it again as CPM 154 !!
So it's 440C=> 154CM => CPM 154 ! Each is an improvement to the previous. 440C is nice but CPM 154 is VERY nice !
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In the extensive mid-late 90s blade test that I mention, 440C definitely beat out 154 CM by a wide margin on some materials, particularly manilla rope, where the second steel to 440C was far, far behind (I don't remember what it was, but the margin was very large, possibly 50% in number of cuts, pressure measured, until a given higher cutting pressure was reached)... It also beat out by some margin the early CPM steels on most materials, including of course manilla rope. I think CPM 154 may have been one of the two CPM steels tested (assuming that was one of the first two CPM knife steels: The tested steels were the two first CPM knife steels to come out on actual magazine-publicized knives, at any rate)

The impression one got from that test was that 440C was way out in front, especially on manilla rope and a few other materials... It was interesting to see some materials favoured some of the other steels, but 440C was more versatile, scoring highest the most often... It should be remembered that besides INFI, and a few other oddball makers, big name cutlery steels are never, ever designed to be cutlery steel in the first place: Steel makers claims of "improvement" are made for raw tool-making, metal-cutting die-cut functions, or likewise heavy industrial use, things completely unrelated to the tight edge angle and soft material cutting we do... We are not covered by hard science I'm afraid...

Gaston
 
440C is still a good value for the money. As has been oft said, it isn't the "flavor of the month". Lots of good knife makers use it. Properly tempered, it holds an excellent edge, it is relatively inexpensive, and will serve better than most of the "knife snobs" would lead you to believe. Buck made some of their best sheath and folding knives (Models 110 and 112) in 440C from the beginning, and many of them are still serving quite well.

What matters most is tempering. Some people don't care for it because some of the Chinese samples of the steel were poorly tempered and it left a bad taste in their mouth. When American companies use it, they usually temper it properly, and produce an extremely hard, (58 Rc) useful and corrosion-resistant blade. This is a combination that is hard to exceed at affordable price points.

Don't "pooh-pooh" 440C that comes from reputable American, German or Japanese sources. You may be short-changing yourself.
 
carbonsteelfan said:
I truly am curious. I was getting a gift for my grandfather this morning . A knife ( of course ;) ). He mainly prefers carbon steels like 1095 or tool steels like A2 and D2. The only stainless steel he ever liked is 440c. He is most comfortable with it. His birthday is coming this Sunday. So l did a search in all my local knife stores and even online. Bit every one seems to despise 440c. Why is that ? I personally own a Jack Crain custom made Machete in 440c stainless steel and it works really well on saplings and such. So why does every one hate it ?
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I think the bad press comes from people buying cheaper brands that have sub par heat treat. If you get 440c from Older Benchmade or Boker you'll find that it's still a good option especially for folding knives. I think now especially since everyone wants super steels the steels from yesterday are being offered at great prices and it pays to not be a steel snob. Blade geometry,design, heat treatment and ergos are more important than what kind of steel it is especially value for the money
 
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