Why Doesn't BUCK Grow Beyond 420HC?

[brownshoe]

Enderwiggen, your statement:

"You may not agree with me. You don't have to. The world is not going to end if I continue to hold an opinion that differs from yours."

Many people have come to this thread and given facts as to how good 420HC is as a knife steel.

Many have come and given facts as to why 420hc is a good choice for the knife in question, special edition kalinga.

enderwiggen, it's not a matter of opinion, it is a matter of fact. You and Confederate happen to be dead wrong but keep dribbling on and insulting Buck and those who buy their products.

Your statement:

"the point I was trying to make is that it's INSULTING TO THE AVERAGE AMEERICN CONSUMER for a company like Buck, knowing they can rely on their brand name, to produce knives at all price points with one of the cheapest blade steels they can find."

That is insulting and wrong. You owe every employee of the Buck company an apology.

 

[Confederate]

I consider the 420HC steel from Buck to be completely acceptable for both a low maintenance collector piece and a blade that actually gets used. I could understand the disappointment if the blade was incapable of being used as a blade, but I have never had a Buck knife that would not take a very fine edge and hold it well.

As do I. But edge retention in and of itself doesn't make the steel. I've seen many knives sharpened so many times that they begin to lose their shape. Better steels allow knives to be used longer between sharpening. They also cost more, but in a $400 knife, it shouldn't be a major problem at all and the finest steel should be quite affordable to the manufacturer. A fine knife should excel in both beauty and performance. A 420HC blade will only perform so-so when up against other, better steels. Again, one need only ask, if I'm buying a $400 knife, which would blade would I prefer, 420HC or VG-10?

Everyone wants something for nothing.

True, but then we also want something for something. A four hundred dollar knife ought to have fine steel, and 420HC is not fine steel by today's standards. It may not be junk steel, but it's not premium steel.

 

[roughedges]

IMO, using a $400 knife as an example in defense of one's point is kind of silly when the vast majority of the company's products cost around 1/10th of that amount. Now, if all they sold was $400 knives it would be a much more valid point...

 

[Confederate]

I don't know...is it really silly to want top notch components in a safe queen? I have friends with Colt Python revolvers who have never shot the things. They are safe queens because they're beautiful and they're known to perform. Browning made some .22s that were gorgeous, exceptionally well crafted and didn't shoot worth a damn. They were beautifully blued, forged steel, polished wood grips and fine balance. No one could deny they were good guns, but they couldn't perform as well as Ruger's far less expensive .22s, which not only shot tighter groups, but didn't break or jam as often. So those guns are no longer made and not that many are kept as safe queens.

Pythons remain favorites as safe queens and they come at an expensive price if you want one in your safe. But even though they're never shot, they wouldn't be safe queens unless they proved they could perform.

Does any of this make sense?

 

[knarfeng]

When you can't stand that someone would express a negative opinion about something you happen to like, why state your reasons when you can just call them a troll?

If you prefer low-end blade material, that's your personal prerogative. But the point I was trying to make is that it's insulting to the average american consumer for a company like Buck, knowing they can rely on their brand name, to produce knives at all price points with one of the cheapest blade steels they can find.

You may not agree with me. You don't have to. The world is not going to end if I continue to hold an opinion that differs from yours.

However, I don't think I'm the only one who thinks Buck using 420HC steel on a majority of their models is ridiculous.

When people stop arguing with you, it doesn't mean you're right. It often means they're just tired of arguing with you. In this case, they're tired of being called names--like troll--because people can't relax and discuss points of view without becoming flabbergasted by dissenting points of view, and reacting as if someone insulted their mother.

Really, I expected more. One of the things I really love about this board is that all different types of people can come and discuss differing opinions in a civil manner, and that even if the discussion becomes spirited they're able to maintain enough distance to continue the discussion objectively, even if people are saying things they don't like.

But all I'm seeing here is a lot of finger-pointing and calling for the moderators to silence dissenting opinions.

A forum member, who has recently been in some rather heated discussions in Whine and Cheese, forgot himself and made an error in language, using language that is inappropriate for this particular forum. He was reminded of where he was posting. No problem, we all forget.

The only one I see flinging names is you, calling Buck dishonest because you don't agree with their design decision, impugning the judgment of any who disagree with your assessment of Buck's steel choice, and deciding that any correction due to language must be due to the opinion expressed rather than the language used to express it.

Again, I wish to know your source of information for the intimate knowledge of Buck designer and executive thinking processes. Have you seen their sales figures? Have you been privy to their design meetings? Or do you just KNOW that they must be out to screw the world because they don't agree with your own design philosophy?

 

[Guyon]

A forum member, who has recently been in some rather heated discussions in Whine and Cheese, forgot himself and made an error in language, using language that is inappropriate for this particular forum. He was reminded of where he was posting. No problem, we all forget.

There's such a thing as inappropriate language in W&C.

'Scuse me. I have some editing to do.

 

[knarfeng]

Me too, if that is what I said.

 

[Guyon]

Me too, if that is what I said.

Just an exercise in decontextualization.

You know... sort of like thinking Buck's knives should be designed solely with the BFC knife nut in mind.

 

[nondescript]

As do I. But edge retention in and of itself doesn't make the steel. I've seen many knives sharpened so many times that they begin to lose their shape. Better steels allow knives to be used longer between sharpening.

Your statement seems to be self-contradictory. But I will say that if anyone hand-sharpens a blade into unusability then they probably got their moneys worth out of that blade.

They also cost more, but in a $400 knife, it shouldn't be a major problem at all and the finest steel should be quite affordable to the manufacturer. A fine knife should excel in both beauty and performance. A 420HC blade will only perform so-so when up against other, better steels. Again, one need only ask, if I'm buying a $400 knife, which would blade would I prefer, 420HC or VG-10?

Once again, speaking about "finest" in terms of blade steel just goes in circles when trying to pin down what makes a particular steel better for some things than others. What sort of performance attributes to you think should be valued the highest? Finest polished edge possible? Edge retention? Impact resistance? Ease of sharpening? Corrosion resistance?
What steel do you think is the absolute pinnacle of desirability right now?
Would you change your mind in a month? A year? Would you discard a blade that was once considered "premium" when a newer steel is being heavily promoted in knife publications?

True, but then we also want something for something. A four hundred dollar knife ought to have fine steel, and 420HC is not fine steel by today's standards. It may not be junk steel, but it's not premium steel.

What attributes do you consider necessary for a blade steel to be "premium"?

 

[Hard H2O]

As do I. But edge retention in and of itself doesn't make the steel. I've seen many knives sharpened so many times that they begin to lose their shape. Better steels allow knives to be used longer between sharpening. They also cost more, but in a $400 knife, it shouldn't be a major problem at all and the finest steel should be quite affordable to the manufacturer. A fine knife should excel in both beauty and performance. A 420HC blade will only perform so-so when up against other, better steels. Again, one need only ask, if I'm buying a $400 knife, which would blade would I prefer, 420HC or VG-10?


True, but then we also want something for something. A four hundred dollar knife ought to have fine steel, and 420HC is not fine steel by today's standards. It may not be junk steel, but it's not premium steel.

Why should a wall hanger or safe queen have better steel than one that will actually be used?

You have the option of not buying Buck knives. If you know of a company selling better knives with better steel with cheaper or similar prices and with customer service as good as Buck's then vote with your wallet.

Pretty simple.

 

[Confederate]

What sort of performance attributes to you think should be valued the highest? Finest polished edge possible? Edge retention? Impact resistance? Ease of sharpening? Corrosion resistance?

A balance of all the above. Premium knifemakers don't seem to have a problem in selecting decent steels. So the pinnacle of desirability would be either VG-10 or S30V. These steels strike a fine balance in edge retention and strength and they are expensive and a little tougher to work with. No, I wouldn't discard a blade that was once considered premium and I'm not really a steel snob in any way. I just feel that a premium knife ought to have a premium steel. The fact that most expensive, well made knives out there don't offer their blades in 420HC indicates that while it may be a good entry-grade steel for an inexpensive knife, it's probably not one someone would request when spending a great deal of $$$ on a custom knife. One need only find out what knives the steel is being used in.

When CRKT replaced some of their AUS6 blades with AUS4, most people saw it as a major step down. Like it or not, there are varying grades of steel, and some are decidedly superior to others. A fine premium knife should have a fine premium blade, and nearly everyone knows what those steels are.

What attributes do you consider necessary for a blade steel to be "premium"?

When spending four hundred dollars for a knife, I wouldn't complain if the blade were made from S30V or a highly polished VG-10. Both of those steels have been tested, perfected and are widely used in premium knives. Older premium steels like ATS-34 and 154CM also are generally regarded as being substantially superior than 420HC. I have a CRKT S-2 with ATS-34 and I've found it to hold a much better edge than my AUS8 knives. When it came time to buy a Buck 110, I opted with the company's Alaskan Guide series, with S30V stainless, from Cabela's.

Why should a wall hanger or safe queen have better steel than one that will actually be used? You have the option of not buying Buck knives. If you know of a company selling better knives with better steel with cheaper or similar prices and with customer service as good as Buck's then vote with your wallet.

Yes, that is capitalism. But we're discussing why Buck doesn't offer premium steel with premium knives, not whether I should buy one or not. I'm not even complaining. I just wonder how many Sebenzas would sell if offered with a 420HC blade. I don't know, but I suspect none. Sebenza owners almost all uniformly state their reasons for buying Sebenzas include exacting tolerances, craftsmanship and quality of materials, including blades of fine, premium steel. If someone could save fifty bucks and get a Sebenza with an AUS8 or 440A blade, I think the overwhelming majority of people would spend the extra fifty bucks and get the better steel.

 

[nondescript]

A balance of all the above. Premium knifemakers don't seem to have a problem in selecting decent steels. So the pinnacle of desirability would be either VG-10 or S30V. These steels strike a fine balance in edge retention and strength and they are expensive and a little tougher to work with. No, I wouldn't discard a blade that was once considered premium and I'm not really a steel snob in any way. I just feel that a premium knife ought to have a premium steel.

But what makes a knife steel a "premium" knife steel to you might be totally different than what makes it such for someone else.

The fact that most expensive, well made knives out there don't offer their blades in 420HC indicates that while it may be a good entry-grade steel for an inexpensive knife, it's probably not one someone would request when spending a great deal of $$$ on a custom knife. One need only find out what knives the steel is being used in.

So if a Sebenza could be ordered with a 420HC blade would the mere fact that it is being offered on a higher-end pocket knife elevate its status into the "premium" realm?

When CRKT replaced some of their AUS6 blades with AUS4, most people saw it as a major step down. Like it or not, there are varying grades of steel, and some are decidedly superior to others. A fine premium knife should have a fine premium blade, and nearly everyone knows what those steels are.

Superior in what manner and in what ways?

When spending four hundred dollars for a knife, I wouldn't complain if the blade were made from S30V or a highly polished VG-10. Both of those steels have been tested, perfected and are widely used in premium knives. Older premium steels like ATS-34 and 154CM also are generally regarded as being substantially superior than 420HC. I have a CRKT S-2 with ATS-34 and I've found it to hold a much better edge than my AUS8 knives. When it came time to buy a Buck 110, I opted with the company's Alaskan Guide series, with S30V stainless, from Cabela's.

But would you find it unreasonable if other people were outraged that for $400 the knife was made with something so common as VG-10 or S30V instead of something with real edge retention like S110V? At what point does a steel lose its "premium" status?

Yes, that is capitalism. But we're discussing why Buck doesn't offer premium steel with premium knives, not whether I should buy one or not. I'm not even complaining. I just wonder how many Sebenzas would sell if offered with a 420HC blade. I don't know, but I suspect none. Sebenza owners almost all uniformly state their reasons for buying Sebenzas include exacting tolerances, craftsmanship and quality of materials, including blades of fine, premium steel. If someone could save fifty bucks and get a Sebenza with an AUS8 or 440A blade, I think the overwhelming majority of people would spend the extra fifty bucks and get the better steel.

So once again, if other people were willing to spend the money on 420HC in a more expensive knife would it elevate the status of 420HC into the "premium" realm?? Because if these knives weren't selling I doubt that Buck would keep making them, and to me that means that there are people out there who consider these knives to be worth the money and therefore "premium" enough for them to spend the money on.

 

[elkins45]

Buck is a private company who is free to produce and market any legal product they wish. I know of no company that gets better performance out of a 'common' steel like 420HC than they do. They have great familiarity with this material and have optimized their processes to get the best performance out of it.

I have skipped around a bit in this thread so maybe somebody has already said this, but I think they need at least a little recognition for the fact they still attempt to produce as much stuff as they can domestically. Buck is a mass-market knife company and they depend on mass outlets like Wal-Mart to move much of their product. They have managed to keep a USA made knife in the same display case filled with Chinese products and remain competitive. Obviously, for the mass market, they have done something right.

As far as using 'premium' steel in their higher-end blades, I don't see the problem. Almost by definition anyone who is going to buy a $500 knife is an enthusiast and therefore will know what he is buying. If the enthusiast makes the determination that $500 is too much to pay for a 'common' steel in spite of the overall design and execution then he will simply decide not to buy that knife. If he buys it anyway it will have been an informed decision which was taken freely.

Dishonest? Only if they call it S30V when it's really 420HC. And they aren't. However, I wonder if they did if anybody would ever know? Who's actually going to use that knife enough to tell the difference?

 

[tiguy7]

Buck uses 420 HC blades because they can be fine blanked, are tough, are corrosion resistant, take a high polish, and are easy to sharpen. The price per pound (around $1.00) is also attractive. I have Buck 110 blades in 440 C, 420 HC, BG 42, CPM 154, CPM S30V, Stainless Damascus, Carbon Damascus, and Stellite 6K. The latter two blades are custom made. I became enamored of the Buck-cote blades after I figured out how to resharpen them. The microedges are coated with TiN, ZrN, or TiAlN and come in at 82,87, and 92 respectively on the Rockwell C scale.
I do not like blades that are easy to sharpen, because they are easy to dull. Wear resistance in equals wear resistance out. The longer it takes to sharpen a knife, the longer the edge lasts.
Buck needs to explore CPM S90V, ZDP 189, Friction forged D-2, dendritic Cobalt, and beta Titanium.
420 HC is the perfect blade steel for safe queens. IMHO

 

[Flatlander1963]

Buck is introducing 13C26 & 12C27 from Sandvik this year into its product line.
Maybe that will make some folks happy that aren't 420HC fans.

I don't know if they'll being using that steel in the 110 which is Buck's Signature knife but then the 110 is already mass marketed in Ti coated S30V for $69 full retail and Ti coated CPM-154 for $75 full retail. Or if you prefer; $27 at Wallyworld for a 420HC knife that will last a lifetime.

Truly the best deals available to the knife buying public. IMO

 

[Confederate]

But what makes a knife steel a "premium" knife steel to you might be totally different than what makes it such for someone else.

What attributes do you consider necessary for a blade steel to be "premium"?

Well, I hate to be crass, but cost certainly has something to do with it. Not that cost determines a steel, but rather, steel determines the cost. Like many other commodities, fine steel tends to sell for more than lesser steels. And though I have nothing against 420HC and AUS8 (both are perhaps underrated), few would argue that either steel matches 154CM/ATS-34, VG-10 or S30V.

Again, fine knives like Sebenzas come with the finest steels. Now, does the fact that Chris Reeves uses S30V make S30V the best steel. No! He uses the best steel because he wants to produce the best product. S30V costs more and people demand the ultimate quality when they're shelling out a lot of money. One looks at the cost of a Buck 110 standard and the cost of a Buck 110 Alaskan with S30V. The latter, naturally, costs more than the former and with good reason. Certainly Buck has spent a great deal of time and effort to perfect their heat treat of 420HC, but they haven't perfected it to outperform S30V.

To the free enterprise people, yes, if Buck can get the money using a more inexpensive blade steel, they will certainly maximize profits. I'm just wondering why they don't use better. I wouldn't buy a premium knife without the best steel, but if others do, Buck would have to be nuts to spend money needlessly.

We live in a great world during great times. Even a lot of crap steel is better today than what anyone could afford a hundred years ago. I have many knives with AUS8 and I consider it a premium steel as far as decent knives go ($50+); however, if I'm paying $400+, I'm going to want the extra mile and the finest steel blade available. And again, I'm going to ask, why doesn't Chris Reeve offer his Sebenzas with the option of having a 420HC blade?

If Buck offered their custom knives with the option of 420HC or S30V, with the latter offered for twenty dollars more, which model do you think most people would opt for—the beautiful knife with 420HC or the one with S30V? (After all, the factory is producing both blades.) Anyway, that's all I'm saying. I certainly have nothing against other good steels. It would just be a nice touch to have the best.

 

[Flatlander1963]

If Buck offered their custom knives with the option of 420HC or S30V, with the latter offered for twenty dollars more, which model do you think most people would opt for—the beautiful knife with 420HC or the one with S30V? (After all, the factory is producing both blades.) Anyway, that's all I'm saying. I certainly have nothing against other good steels. It would just be a nice touch to have the best.

Custom Shop Pricing for the blade choices.
Base Price: $60
Satin S30V: $18.50
Black Oxide Coated 420HC $13
Mirror 420HC $15
Satin 420HC $5.50

I don't know what the percentages are on those four choices but that answers the IF part at least as far as the 110 is concerned.

Confederate, I was just wondering how you feel about a CS110-S30V compared to the Sebenza you bring up so often in this thread? Both have large S30V blades. Both have sturdy lock systems, both will last a lifetime for most owners, both have excellent customer service backing and lifetime warranties. One costs $86 (Custom Shop, Nickel Silver, Heritage Walnut) and one costs $385. Thats a significant cost difference for a knife that won't perform one single task better than the other. So its really a preference for a style difference and a perceived quality advantage. If your preference is for high-end steel some maker probably offers something that meets your need/want.

It seems the Buck knives that fall in the $150 or higher catagory are pretty equally split between premium steels and Mirror 420HC. Interesting that they seem to be close in price when looking at the list above.

Its really about preferences, perceptions, & choices. If the choice doesn't meet the perferences or perceptions it so simple to move on to something else.

 

[hardheart]

Confederate, I was just wondering how you feel about a CS110-S30V compared to the Sebenza you bring up so often in this thread? Both have large S30V blades. Both have sturdy lock systems, both will last a lifetime for most owners, both have excellent customer service backing and lifetime warranties. One costs $86 (Custom Shop, Nickel Silver, Heritage Walnut) and one costs $385. Thats a significant cost difference for a knife that won't perform one single task better than the other.

interesting then that a mirror polish 420HC 110 is only $3.50 cheaper than the S30V counterpart, there are most certainly steel performance differences between them.

 

[Flatlander1963]

interesting then that a mirror polish 420HC 110 is only $3.50 cheaper than the S30V counterpart, there are most certainly steel performance differences between them.

No question. And it supports Confederate's argument of "why not a premium steel on knives with premium price tags"

The price difference does suggest that Buck may feel a mirror finished 420hc blade is a premium blade. I happen to agree that mirror finished ATS-34 is more appropriate on a on an expensive collectable/display knife.

 

[Confederate]

enderwiggen...you and Confederate happen to be dead wrong but keep dribbling on and insulting Buck and those who buy their products.

I hope you're not including me as someone who is insulting Buck, for I have not done so, neither have I criticized anyone in any way who buys their products (which would include myself).

Confederate, I was just wondering how you feel about a CS110-S30V compared to the Sebenza you bring up so often in this thread? Both have large S30V blades. Both have sturdy lock systems, both will last a lifetime for most owners, both have excellent customer service backing and lifetime warranties. One costs $86 (Custom Shop, Nickel Silver, Heritage Walnut) and one costs $385. Thats a significant cost difference for a knife that won't perform one single task better than the other.

Well, since you asked, I can see no performance difference between a Sebenza and a Spyderco Native, and as far as cutting goes, I'd bet that a Buck Alaskan 110 would outperform and outlast a Sebenza. Having said that, I don't think people buy Sebenzas for performance but, rather, for its overall appeal (one that escapes me, BTW). And having said that, I would go on to say that if Mr. Reeve were to offer his Sebenza with a 420HC or AUS8 blade at a significant savings ($50) over the one with S30V, that he would have few if any takers.

Look, I don't want to mix it up with the Sebenza people, but I do think they like fine knives, and they want the best for their money. But let's not kid ourselves, either. The Sebenza isn't going to cut any better, any longer, than other good knives with a fine premium blade.

Getting back to Buck, I notice their large Bantum knives with thermoplastic frames and yes, 420HC blades, cost $16.99. I don't know whether it's the same 420HC that's found in their 110s, but consider the blade of a knife that sells for about twenty dollars retail using the same type of steel in its blades as is found in the expensive Buck collection pieces. Okay, it may not be junk steel; in fact, it may be good steel. But it's not fine steel.

I don't want to beat this thing to death, nor diminish Buck's outstanding reputation, but in an expensive, fine collection piece, I personally want (and insist upon) the best steel available. Once you say, "Oh, it's a collection piece, it doesn't matter what the blade steel is," you're on a slippery slope. You can also say it doesn't matter whether the grips are real bone or stag, and that imitation is okay because it's only for collection.

I recognize that others will disagree and I accept that. So it comes back down to the free market and supply and demand. And, again, I maintain that if users had to option of buying the same knife with a higher grades steel for an extra twenty bucks, the overwhelming majority would pay the extra $$$.