Why Doesn't BUCK Grow Beyond 420HC?

[enderwiggin]

Enderwiggen, your statement:

"You may not agree with me. You don't have to. The world is not going to end if I continue to hold an opinion that differs from yours."

Many people have come to this thread and given facts as to how good 420HC is as a knife steel.

Many have come and given facts as to why 420hc is a good choice for the knife in question, special edition kalinga.

enderwiggen, it's not a matter of opinion, it is a matter of fact. You and Confederate happen to be dead wrong but keep dribbling on and insulting Buck and those who buy their products.

Your statement:

"the point I was trying to make is that it's INSULTING TO THE AVERAGE AMEERICN CONSUMER for a company like Buck, knowing they can rely on their brand name, to produce knives at all price points with one of the cheapest blade steels they can find."

That is insulting and wrong. You owe every employee of the Buck company an apology.

Out of all the self-righteous, insane things I've seen posted by you, Brownshoe, this one is pretty far up there.

I don't think an ongoing screaming tantrum from anyone over what I've said in this thread proves any point of view, or advances any thesis other than "I don't like what Enderwiggin was saying."

This is apparent to anyone reading the thread, and to keep re-stating it over and over again is something you'd see kids doing in a schoolyard to look good in front of their classmates.

I don't understand why it's continued in my absence from the thread, other than that beating a dead horse over and over makes people feel good and justified in a group of shared opinions, rather than having to have an ongoing discussion.

I think this thread would benefit if you folks would move on, and talk about the topic at hand rather than talk about who made you mad last year.

 

[Silverdagger]

If Buck offered their custom knives with the option of 420HC or S30V, with the latter offered for twenty dollars more, which model do you think most people would opt for—the beautiful knife with 420HC or the one with S30V? (

I'd get the 420. It polishes up better on a custom knife. If you are going custom, you need to look the part. Who cares how it performs. Custom is a safe queen.

 

[Confederate]

I've seen some beautiful polished VG-10 blades. Gorgeous. It's like looking into a mirror!

 

[Flatlander1963]

This is Buck's first offering in Sandvik 13C26- Vantage Avid Linerlock. Cost at a well known knife retailer-$33. Looks like a damn fine value in a U.S. made knife. You may start seeing this steel in the LE High-End knives. Because the Vantage Avid is only $33 does that make this steel unacceptable as a choice in high-end Buck knives?

·13C26 Sandvik™ steel blade
·Thumb hole
·Charcoal Dymondwood® handle
·Stainless steel liners and pocket clip
·4-3/8" closed
·Made in the USA

 

[Hard H2O]

This is Buck's first offering in Sandvik 13C26- Vantage Avid Linerlock. Cost at a well known knife retailer-$33.

Why did you have to show me that? That is right in my price range.

 

[Confederate]

Because the Vantage Avid is only $33 does that make this steel [13C26] unacceptable as a choice in high-end Buck knives?

Well, it will certainly be up to the buying public. "Acceptable" and "unacceptable" is something that resides in between the ears and each person may have a different shake on it.

But let's look at something Buck includes with its Alaskan knives. It's a breakdown of the various steels it uses:

As can be seen, Buck itself notes that "S30V is the best blade steel available today." The chart shows that according to its observations, 420HC is slightly better (but in the same general category) as AUS8. In fact, it shows that 420HC is to AUS8 what AUS8 is to 440A. I'm not sure that I buy that, but since I've never used 420HC, I'll not challenge it.

But even Buck admits that S30V is "the best" blade steel available today. And if they're correct in that (and I think they are), then why wouldn't they put the best blade steel in their multi-hundred dollar knives? That's all this thread is about. And so far, the answer seems to be: because it's good enough for a show knife that will probably never be used. Or, because it polishes up better than S30V.

My reply to this was, if given the choice, what would most people choose? And if someone had the choice and had to pay $20 extra, would most people take that option. So far, there hasn't been a decisive answer to this. My own view would be, yes, I'd take the better blade steel in a heartbeat. Others may not agree; but I haven't denigrated 420HC as a medium-grade steel.

Does Buck use 420HC because it polishes better, or do they use it because it's cheaper, easier to finish and adds to their profit margin? My guess is that the answer is YES to each. Still, I'd rather have the S30V, but that's just me.

 

[Razorsharp244]

This is Buck's first offering in Sandvik 13C26- Vantage Avid Linerlock. Cost at a well known knife retailer-$33. Looks like a damn fine value in a U.S. made knife. You may start seeing this steel in the LE High-End knives. Because the Vantage Avid is only $33 does that make this steel unacceptable as a choice in high-end Buck knives?

·13C26 Sandvik™ steel blade
·Thumb hole
·Charcoal Dymondwood® handle
·Stainless steel liners and pocket clip
·4-3/8" closed
·Made in the USA

This is a fine knife, I checked it out at SHOTShow last week and it's a beuty. BUCK also introduces some 12C27M in their "Ergohunter" series (Avid), a good choice imo.

Regards
//Jerker

 

[Scott Hartman]

This is a fine knife, I checked it out at SHOTShow last week and it's a beuty. BUCK also introduces some 12C27M in their "Ergohunter" series (Avid), a good choice imo.

Regards
//Jerker

I'm curious to know if the 12C26 Buck is going to use on the Avid is Batch or Belt furnace, and is there a cryo-quench....I'm buying one reguardless

 

[postfallsidaho]

This is a fine knife, I checked it out at SHOTShow last week and it's a beuty. BUCK also introduces some 12C27M in their "Ergohunter" series (Avid), a good choice imo.

Regards
//Jerker

Jerker, please come back to the Buck knives forum and fill us in in that thread

We need to know about this new Sandvik steel! (how it compares to 420HC etc.)

....I'm buying one reguardless

Me too S30V first though

 

[Stainz]

As this thread continues, I still have to wonder if the greatest detractors/pontificators re the use of 420HC have ever tried the steel, much less really compared it to, say, S30V. Don't get me wrong, I love my Kalinga Pro's in S30V - and think of them as really nice looking knives. I have no doubt that 420HC can be more highly polished - even the '07 W-M Collector's Tin 110 displayed that fact. That may just be best exemplified by the easily attained 'scarey-sharp' edge one can get on a 110 without exotic sharpening devices, something I've never experienced with S30V. Of course, S30V can be re-edged with 'just' a Sharpmaker, although it takes a bit - but nothing like the new 'career' one follows in re-edging 440C or D2.

New Finnish steels may offer 'choices', but I still like the US-made 420HC as a great 'user' choice - and it's made here, too. I finally have a VG10 steel blade - Kershaw 1993-2 Gentleman's Folder - nice, but I'd rather it have been S30V. It is my understanding that VG10 is made and must be heat-treated by the Japaneese steel maker.

I would pay more for an S30V blade on some knives - but I would gladly spring a bit more for a US-made sheath, too. YMMV.

Stainz

 

[CUTS LIKE A KRIS]

Here is my take on this after reading the whole thing today (I don't know how I missed this). Buck used to be the go to brand in my household. Then I got an EZ Out, my first pocket clip folder (1996 ish). This led me to look for more, and what I found at the time was that other companies gave me what I wanted at a better price.

Slowly I forgot about Buck as a result of steel type vs price comparisons. I have looked at and bought a few ~$20 Bucks for others and even added the hunters crosslock to my collection (tried for the S30V Cabella's version but was told they could not ship to Canada as it is a sharp weapon- whatever). Not impressed with the edge holding of the knives, similar to my CRKT Bwana in AUS4.

I never hated Buck or anything, they are just off of my purchasing scope (like Al Mar, Sog... nothing wrong with them just not my thing). However after reading HardH20's post (

Buck makes great knives out of 420HC. If you want Buck prices for higher end steel you will need to look elsewhere.

), I thought it was time to take a look at Buck's offerings compared with others in the price range.

I did not take the $500 that the thread uses, but focused on about $60- $70knives. I was somewhat surprised at what I found. Beyond $80 the knives seem to be higher end steels. However my old time bias against Buck held true (I used Smokey Mountain as a reference). For around $60 Buck offers the following in 420HC: Sirius, Kalinga Pro, Alpha Hunter, and PBS crosslock. User quality designs with basic steel and rubber/plastic handles. But when compared with others I found they are not worth the money to me. Kershaw: Damascus Leek, D2 composite leek, Rainbow Leek (440A but with anodized coating), Queen D2 Canoe with Birds Eye Maple, Puma Damascus Linerlock, Helle laminated steel curly birch, Kyocera Ceramic......

To me Buck is not offering enough product for the money they want. I will give that many options have to do with esthetics, but at that price range (to me) esthetics are what are going to make the sale if all other factors are equal. A rubberized handle 420HC folder or a Damascus blade with jigged bone scales; the choice is easy for me.


Just like everything in life- if you are happy with what you have then all is good.

 

[Flatlander1963]

focused on about $60- $70knives. I was somewhat surprised at what I found. Beyond $80 the knives seem to be higher end steels. However my old time bias against Buck held true

To me Buck is not offering enough product for the money they want.

Cabela's AG110 in S30V: $69 Retail
Bass Pro's BP110 in CPM-154: $75 Retail

Both have Ti coated blades too. Two of the best values out there.

 

[A.P.F.]

I am going to echo Stainzs' comment in that I too wonder if the biggest detractors of 420HC, have ever really used the steel to it's full capability. I have a number of Bucks in 420HC and I have no complaint about any of them. They take a fine edge and keep it through most tasks. If 420HC starts to go dull, touch-ups are quick and easy. Remember, we are not talking 420J2 here, we are talking 420HC with a Bos prescribed heat treat.

Where value is concerned, who else can float a product that compares to the quality, handling and good looks of a Buck 110? I think that somewhere along the line, we have forgotten that the true value of a knife is realised only when we actually use the d**n thing.

 

[cabala]

I got my new Cabela's catalog today and saw some of Buck's new offerings. They have some beautiful (and expensive) knives out, with very attractive handles and blade shapes and styles. But in the end, regardless of how many hundreds of dollars the knives may go for, the same 420HC Buck flagship steel is used, and it's getting a bit tiresome.

Why doesn't Buck use premium steel in its premium knives??? No matter what sort of a decorative handle a Buck Vanguard may have, or how nicely etched a blade or how beautiful the turquoise is in a handle, it still gets back to the blade, doesn't it? And we all know Buck is adept in making S30V steels, so why wouldn't they use them in these gorgeous knives they offer for the...ummm...big BUCK$?

I love the Buck designs, the chipflint blades, the Gen-5 skinners and many of their other limited edition knives, but frankly, I feel that 420HC is getting a bit long in the tooth. What's your take?

This Buck Kalinga sells for $500. So why is the blade only 420HC?

Because these steel You may sharpen on peace of stone in hunting, maybe ?!

 

[gak]

The goal is maximum profit.

Unless people do research and have connections they will get ripped off on everything from groceries to cars. It's a fact of life. In Canada it's even worse because everything is marked up 35%-200% over the U.S. prices.

When I used to sell knives 99% of the customers didn't know/care about steel, they just went for looks. They'd look up at me and say, "So this is awesome steel right ?" Of course to avoid being fired I'd always say, "Oh ya, 420HC, top of the line." and they'd pay and leave. When I saw "custom" expensive Bucks in 420HC arrive I'd throw up in my mouth a little, but still sold them for $300 with a smile. As long as people happily pay $75+ for $6 knives in 420HC there is no reason to use cpm 154/s30v etc.

A lot of companies would rather go under than lower ripoff prices even a penny. Million-dollar bonuses to managers are quickly forgotten when times are tough later. "Oh, that money is invested so it doesn't exist. Just because I can pull it out at any time and retire a millionaire means nothing, so just forget that money ever existed as we cut back your meager wages then fire you after the Christmas rush. Oh, by the way, did you see the photos of my new mansion in St. Barts ?"

My all-time favourite was a dentist client that wouldn't pay his bills on time because he claimed to be poor, but all through his office corridors were gold framed pictures of him on his yaughts and porsches.

They sell 420HC for $300 so they can be millionaires. You only live once, so if you can't find a production knife you really like get one custom made to your specs, you won't regret it.

 

[Confederate]

Because these steel You may sharpen on peace of stone in hunting, maybe ?!

I think Gak's closer to the truth, mate.

Anyone that can afford to spend several hundred $$$ for a knife isn't going to be concerned with sharpening the blade on a rock. Premium steels sharpen very well in the field, and they need sharpening a lot less often!

 

[Sharp_newbie]

I agree with Gak completely, its all about maximizing profits, with everything!

This question seems to be asked a lot on this forum, i wonder if someone should redo the Blade forum logo on the top of the page to say in big bold letters;

"If YOU don't like 420HC, Then don't buy a F#$$%*g buck!"

I will delete if this is too offensive.

 

[Flatlander1963]

GAK,

As long as people happily pay $75+ for $6 knives in 420HC there is no reason to use cpm 154/s30v etc.

You're post is full of amazing statements. Can you name one model that Buck sales for $75 that's a $6 dollar knife??

They sell 420HC for $300 so they can be millionaires

The price difference between mirror finished 420hc and S30V for a custom shop 110 order is about $3. A knife at a cost of $300 is being valued due to design and time of workmanship and cost of other materials as well as the blade cost. It is absurd to suggest "They sell 420HC for $300"

One other thing, High Priced limited editions are made in such low numbers that even if there was huge profit in each piece (and there is less than you imagine) there are hardly sacks of gold being wisked away on a banana boat for safekeeping in places unknown.

"Oh ya, 420HC, top of the line."

Why not tell the truth and say that Buck's 420hc is an exceptional steel with superb stain resistance. That is the truth and it would have satisfied the customer and you'd be telling the truth rather than an easy lie with a smile on your face.

You did get one thing right and this applies to for every business not classied as a non-profit

The goal is maximum profit.

You seem to be angry about something, I just don't think its really about Buck knives with 420hc. But Confederate seems to be a fan of yours.

 

[roughedges]

Other than the fact that there are some people in this thread knocking Buck and using their low number, limited edition and custom lines as proof that Buck is trying to make a profit (and since when is this no longer a capitalist country, anyway?)the strangest thing to me is that, in reality, amongst actual knife users 420hc is a fine steel. It has its limitations just like any other steel but, all in all, it is a fine steel at a good price and I am forced to question the knowledge or actual knife usage of anyone who thinks otherwise.

 

[gak]

Can you name one model that Buck sales for $75 that's a $6 dollar knife??

Sure, we got employee discounts. When I ordered my boss a regular $89.99 Kalinga (canadian funds) for moose his cost was $15. I asked the lady who handled employee orders from Buck if they still made money on employee discounted knives. She said yes, they still mark them up "double" (her word) to cover handling fees. My boss just paid for shipping on top of that $15.

The price difference between mirror finished 420hc and S30V for a custom shop 110 order is about $3. A knife at a cost of $300 is being valued due to design and time of workmanship and cost of other materials as well as the blade cost. It is absurd to suggest "They sell 420HC for $300"

The horn handled buck custom knives we had in special black felt-lined boxes were in 420HC and sold for $299-$399 Canadian dollars. I know these were not just Buck Mini Trappers, but they sure weren't $30 either. Sorry I wasn't clearer.

One other thing, High Priced limited editions are made in such low numbers that even if there was huge profit in each piece (and there is less than you imagine) there are hardly sacks of gold being wisked away on a banana boat for safekeeping in places unknown.

I have no idea who makes money at Buck and how they invest it.

Why not tell the truth and say that Buck's 420hc is an exceptional steel with superb stain resistance. That is the truth and it would have satisfied the customer and you'd be telling the truth rather than an easy lie with a smile on your face.

Our sales course stressed not to have conversions with customers. Gun stores are brutal to begin with because people will come in, buy nothing, but gladly engage you in 3 hour talks at the slightest encouragement. If they assume something to be true and it's leading to a sale, shut up and sell. If you give the customer anything to think about you're jeopardizing the sale. I never lied as much as my bosses did to close sales, but I knew I had to answer for each customer that walked away.

"Why did that guy put back the knife and leave ?"
"Oh, I told him it's an exceptional steel with superb stain resistance, which made him ask if Buck offered a better steel. I answered yes, S30V. He replied, "Well, I guess I'll wait until I travel to the U.S. and buy one in S30v 40% cheaper."

It would've been nice to always tell the truth and spend time evaluating steel type VS. need like in the Buck Re-Sellers Handbook, but not if I wanted to stay employed.

You seem to be angry about something, I just don't think its really about Buck knives with 420hc. But Confederate seems to be a fan of yours.

I didn't intend to come across as angry or happy or anything. I'll have to re-read my earlier post and see if there is any anger I inadvertently conveyed. Thanks for pointing that out. By the way, I use a S30v Kalinga Pro when my wife and I go deer hunting, it's a great knife. I just don't believe 420HC Buck knives are worth the price, especially in Canada.