Why Doesn't BUCK Grow Beyond 420HC?

I had the same question myself....I think a large part of the knife carrying/collecting population still thinks steel is steel. It may be something passed down from generation to generation, before high quality steels were used in production knives.
Growing up I watched my father sharpen his 110 shaving sharp on the diamond stone, used it for a few days, then have to sharpen it again. I guess high edge retention isn't for everyone!
 
I guess because 420HC is good enough for most non-knifenut-knife-users.In my experience,as long as I don't cut man-made abrasive materials,420HC/SAK steels work fine for me.

Besides,a lot of folks I know who buy tactical knives don't change the factory-sharpened 20~25 per side edge angles.In my experience,Buck knives factory-sharpened to 13~16 per side even at lower hardness outcut such tactical knives with higher end steels.

And people I know won't cut cardboard and used carpet that often,and I don't cut cardboard with my SAK or high hardness carbon steel knives.For cardboard or other abrasive stuffs,I use my Olfa cutters.
 
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I agree with your question.
Its like asking why someone would buy expensive rims and exhaust and sounds and then go and put it on a toyota trecel or better yet a ford fiesta.
Sure the car works just fine and has its own market, but if I want a nice tricked out car you dont start out with something like that.
 
There's a lot of good thinking in this thread. I do see one problem though with a thread that addresses a question to Buck, but isn't in the Buck forum for them to see it. :)

If the original poster would like, I can move it there. Maybe we can get a company response.
 
I don't get all these responses of non-knife nuts, people who can't sharpen, raising prices, etc.

He's specifically pointing out knives that cost hundreds of dollars. I feel nothing for people who will spend that on a knife and can't sharpen it, or who wouldn't spend a little more for a steel with better properties. There are steels that don't get used in knives sold in blister packs. There are tougher, more wear resistant, more exotic steels.

I personally don't see the appeal in an embellished knife that 1. took far less effort to produce because the steel machines so easily and is processed beside a huge list of the value priced models 2. isn't going to provide any performance advantage, again because it's the same steel.

If the steel is so unimportant then buy those 420J2 wall hanger beauties. I can get a hand made custom in S125V for almost the same price as that Kalinga, and a lot cheaper than a bunch of those 420HC blades from that website.
 
Steven Penner said:
It’s a valid question in my view.

I was brought up on reverence for BUCK knife. A very big deal.
I have since recommended and purchased Bucks for others.

One notable experience was a supervisor of mine. I bought him a Vanguard with 420HC, to replace a really poor food service knife he had. He is a Vet…that is a .Veterinarian. He used it daily, to do necropsy on Turkeys (up to 100 pounds each) and he used it HARD

It has all the characteristics of a good hunting knife. -
Sharp
Blade belly
Good dropped point
Guard
Nice rubber grippy handle esp with wet hands.
Nice blade length

He was used to crap, and now had something decent.
You should have seen him smile when he could shave off the head of the leg bones with that knife. (Internal bone structure indicates rickets)
That knife took a ton of abuse, cutting bones,ligaments, hitting gravel, or the stainless steel table depending on where he worked.

I love the style and would buy a dozen for myself or others, but I will never buy 420HC again.

Ease of sharpening?
It’s true its easy to sharpen…but if a better quality steel was available, it wouldn’t need to be sharpened as often.
I sharpened that knife on a weekly basis. True it didn’t chip often, but I thought it to be really soft.
(Actually he had 2 that I rotated through sharpening.)

There have been Huge advances in sharpening equipment. Diamond and ceramic stones are inexpensive, high quality and dare I say, the norm.
I have no trouble sharpening using modern stones and sharpeners on premium steel.

(If the expensive collectors are not meant to be used, make them of cheap mild steel.)

For me the primary purpose of a knife is to perform.
Especially on a working knife, I want to work reliability and not spend time working on it.
Why feild sharpen in the middle of an animal, when better steel will get you through ?
Spend your limited daylight on getting that Bambi back home

Price? Right now the vanguard is 50$ ish….we paid closer to $80….(Canada)
Price is different thing s to different people…$1000 rifle…20$ knife is often mentioned…

From my point of view…by recommending that knife, my reputation was on the line… and price was of much lower significance.

Knife companies have important traditions, but they have to keep up with tech innovation. They know it too. Look at the popularity of custom design collaborations, premium steels and new lock mechanisms..

Why not offer premium steel at different prices and see what sells over time? done now somewhat...

If Buck doesn’t offer other steels, they won’t be selling me any knives.

I have taken a real shine to D2…It’s my edc and I can’t be more pleased. 420HC is pretty poor in comparison to D2, let alone the new CPM’s.

420HC is OK quality at an OK price.
If Buck is content to let their reputation slip to be synonymous with OK rather than Greatness, then don’t change.
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Buy a Vanguard S30V. End of your problem.
 
Esav Benyamin said:
There's a lot of good thinking in this thread. I do see one problem though with a thread that addresses a question to Buck, but isn't in the Buck forum for them to see it. :)

If the original poster would like, I can move it there. Maybe we can get a company response.
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Fine by me. I mainly wanted to see what the people on the board would say, as most companies aren't very responsive when they're making money and only a few are complaining. But sure, I'll bite.

To those who have posted here, thanks. I wonder how many of you who are happy with 420HC, though, are owners of Buck's high end knives.

Knives are blades and they're handles. In my view, an expensive, well made and beautiful knife ought to have the best steel (and like I said, it ain't all that expensive!) And Buck itself acknowledges that you'll get at least a 45 percent increase in edge retention with the better steel.

I have Cold Steel knives I love and use, but let's face it: they're inexpensive. I'm simply of a mind that if someone spends hundreds of dollars on a knife, they shouldn't have to run with anything other than top-tier steel.
 
Silverdagger Right On

"Buy a Vanguard S30V. End of your problem."

You all just don't know the Buck product line.

You complain about a lack of different steels, but you're just wrong. Buck makes a fair number of knives in more than one steel. They have been doing it for years. It used to be a lot of ATS34, before that 440C, now its S30V and there has been a damscus option for a long time.

I believe if you like D2 you can get a Cabela's 110 in D2.

Their flagship folder, the Buck Mayo is S30V and Ti...even the clip. They have lower level Mayos with cheaper steel and Al handles that look pretty much like the Ti-model.
 
The issue was not that Buck doesnt offer better steel options. People keep saying buy this other knife because it has XXX steel. They are missing the point. The point is that if you are spending top dollar then you want top quality parts.
 
For usage as EDC, 420HC should do. However, the question is very valid: for a 500$ knife, with such a craftmanship, shouldn't the steel be better?

Although personally only experienced with 440C, AUS8A, AUS6 and 8CrMoV (plus some SAK's steel), IMHO, as a collector item, it should have better steel ..
 
I've used a variety of Buck knives in 420HC including a pair of 119's (one with a Kraton grip, the other standard), and a couple of 110s. I found 420HC to be much easier to sharpen than the old 440C Bucks I had, and it holds an edge better than 440C according to CATRA tests, particularly with the Edge 2X geometry. I had to touch up the Kraton 119 half-way through field dressing a moose one time, which ain't bad. 420HC (as heat treated by Buck/Bos) is a tough, stain resistant, fine-grained steel that takes an excellent edge. It is a lot easier to sharpen than many 'higher end' steels such as D2, ATS34, VG10, S30V, etc. Plus it is less expensive, which makes a difference to all those other folks who aren't knife nerds like me. If it works, don't fix it. Buck does offer a variety of other steels these days, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with 420HC.
 
A collector piece at $500 a throw retains its value as mint and unsharpened.
So what does the steel matter if it is going to remain unsharpened?

If this was a camera forum, whould we ask why do camera manufacturers make point and shoot cameras?
No.
It is clear there is a mass market for simple camera.
And as the user gets more advanced they want a better camera with a higher price.
But this is a smaller market and there will be less sold.

So brands like Buck and CRKT can meet the mass market with a knife according to the needs of the market (which is occasional use), using 420HC and the like.
And for constant hard usage there is the box cutter and stanley knife for $10 -$15 with a 100 blades.

When I give a knife to a non-knife guy, will I give him a knife with a steel he can't sharpen or a carbon steel that will rust from negect.
420HC or 440, that he can sharpen on what ever sharpener he has lying around in his kitchen drawer, will work fine.

And all this said, the 420HC in my Buck knives all are sharp and work well.
 
Let's not discuss how well 420HC by Buck being used daily, appeal to mass market, etc. We all know it.

The point of the OP is that why on so called premium knives the steel is not premium?

I disagree that if it's meant to be mint / unsharpened, the steel is not important. Then why not more stainless (less carbon) kind of steel? I believe, if a knife is meant to be collectible, and produced in this era, the steel should be as high end as the detail craftmanship. That's what a collectible is: high grade material + high grade work/detail. Do you ever know a Rolex, Patek Phillippe using fake diamond? I heard Zircon produce more spectrum than real diamond, why not use that? Just put in best effort / craftmanship, but using so-so material? Will the collector be happy?

We are talking about premium collector item here, aren't we?

If we talk about daily use, just any workable medium steel will do, and similarly, any workable design/implementation will do. That's how it's differentiated.
 
I've re-edged my Spydie Native in S30V with a ceramic rod kit - their 'Sharpmaker'. I thought it was a reasonable amount of time, compared with the new career I had taken on in finally sharpening my delivered dull new Benchmade 551 Grip (440C) and 201 Activator+. Either my 420HC 110s, 301, and 119 weren't very dull - or that combo - Sharpmaker & 420HC/Bos treated - is perfect. The result is a shaver - as sharp as the Flitz/Semichrome on a mous pad for my carbon steel convex blades. By comparison, that S30V, post sharpening, is a long-lasting cutter - just not as good for shaving. All things considered, 420HC is a decent-plus steel at a very decent price.

A nit pick - the Gen5. It came out last year as the #005LE - a $300 MSRP 'collectible' in 154CM. This year, as the newly released 005GYS - @ $88 MSRP, it is available in 420HC and an Al finger guard and charcoal birch handle, with a nylon horizontal belt sheath. An 'upgrade' model, in CPM154 steel, brass guard, rosewood handle, and leather sheath, for $140 MSRP as the 005RWS. They are available via the web for as little as $175 for the limited production 005LE, $80 for the 005RWS, and $48 for the 005GYS. I have the latter two - and use the 420HC bladed one frequently - for everything from woods-stomping to mail/package opening - I love that horizontal sheath, too. Actually, I don't like the knurled sides to the rosewood handled version.

As to the 192 Vanguard - I've had one for years. Then, about three I bought the 'Alaskan Guide' S30V version, only available from Cabela's. It's on display - I used the 420HC wood-handled version as a 'bushcraft' knife for years before I knew what a proper 'bushcraft' knife should actually be. Last month, I found a new 192 variant in a knife store - in CPM154 with a gunmetal blade finish and with a nylon sheath. The box was dated 9/08, so it was a recent production - and at the same price as a regular 192. So - different metals are available now for a 192. Of course, as an autopsy table is generally SS, and a bump on that will dull most metals, I doubt the results would be that much better with a 'higher grade' steel.

I understand Buck's choice of an easily obtained and economical blade material - and then heat-treating it properly. It works. Sure, I have a few BG-42 bladed 110s from the Buck 'Custom Shop' - super steel - super knives. So is my teardrop Damascus 110 from the C. S.. They are almost too nice no use - a regular 110 in 420HC being in my back pocket when I know I'll 'need' a knife. And... yes, I've cut down cardboard appliance boxes with a 110 - blasphemy - but a couple minutes on the Sharpmaker, and you'd never know... except I'd be missing more of my left forearm's hair...

For the OP - 420HX has two attributes that are great for a display knife. It is a true SS - and worry-not how you display. Of course, it really takes a beautifully glossy/shiney finish when polished. If you have - or saw - the '07 Christmas Collector's Tin version of the 110, a whopping $30 deal at Wally World (Less on clearance afterwards!), you needed two to shave by - one to shave with while watching yourself in the mirror finish of the other.

Stainz
 
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Chris "Anagarika";6144519 said:
Let's not discuss how well 420HC by Buck being used daily, appeal to mass market, etc. We all know it.

The point of the OP is that why on so called premium knives the steel is not premium?

I disagree that if it's meant to be mint / unsharpened, the steel is not important. Then why not more stainless (less carbon) kind of steel? I believe, if a knife is meant to be collectible, and produced in this era, the steel should be as high end as the detail craftmanship. That's what a collectible is: high grade material + high grade work/detail. Do you ever know a Rolex, Patek Phillippe using fake diamond? I heard Zircon produce more spectrum than real diamond, why not use that? Just put in best effort / craftmanship, but using so-so material? Will the collector be happy?

We are talking about premium collector item here, aren't we?

If we talk about daily use, just any workable medium steel will do, and similarly, any workable design/implementation will do. That's how it's differentiated.
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I disagree, a premium collector knife should use a steel that is good for collecting, not using. 420HC is a better steel for collectors than S30V.
 
I believe the reason Buck uses 420HC in some of their collector knives is that it
polishes to a mirror finish,unlike S30V which has a cloudy polished finish and harder on tooling.
And is easier for the knife artist to customize.

Most of Bucks collector knives blades are highly polished or modified with grinding files
click the pic below all are 420HC.
 

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If Cabelas added the Buck 119 to their Alaska guide series (S30V) it would make me happy. 440C is another steel I wouldn't mind seeing on Buck fixed blades as an option.

I own 4 Buck folding knives and none are 420. Two of the knives are ATS-34 which I really love, one is S30V and one is an old 440C.
 
I've never considered myself a knife snob by any means, but I have some idea what materials cost and what the "right" price is for me. When I see SOG knives with AUS6 blades for $90, or a fixed AUS8 knife for $240, I wonder if they're filling the handles with gold dust. It just doesn't jive with what I have gotten from other reputable companies.

In a like manner, if I were going to buy a beautiful knife for several hundred dollars, I'd want the blade to be correspondingly as nice as the handles. It's something that I'd expect from a knife maker who was proud of his work.

It's not that S30V or ATS-34 are precious metals. Spyderco puts out a great little knife with an S30V blade that, until recently, you could buy at Wal*Mart for forty bucks. And Buck's S30V 110 goes for a very modest $70 and will easily cut up an entire elk without needed any whacks on the sharpener.

Hunting blades need not be shaving sharp. Indeed, the blades are designed to be "working" sharp, to cut through the skin, bone and sinews. With 420HC blades, it's not unheard of to have to resharpen them during a buck or elk dressing. Add to that the fact that collectors are paying hundreds of dollars and it seems natural to want a premium blade to go with them. Four-twenty HC is fine for hunters using inexpensive and well built knives similar to those their fathers used. But in this day and age, a 420 knife of any stripe just doesn't measure up to many modern steels.

Again, if it's going to have a fine, beautiful handle and be worthy of showing to others, the steel ought to be first rate. Otherwise, it's only half way there.
 
Confederate said:
I've never considered myself a knife snob by any means, but I have some idea what materials cost and what the "right" price is for me. When I see SOG knives with AUS6 blades for $90, or a fixed AUS8 knife for $240, I wonder if they're filling the handles with gold dust. It just doesn't jive with what I have gotten from other reputable companies.

In a like manner, if I were going to buy a beautiful knife for several hundred dollars, I'd want the blade to be correspondingly as nice as the handles. It's something that I'd expect from a knife maker who was proud of his work.

It's not that S30V or ATS-34 are precious metals. Spyderco puts out a great little knife with an S30V blade that, until recently, you could buy at Wal*Mart for forty bucks. And Buck's S30V 110 goes for a very modest $70 and will easily cut up an entire elk without needed any whacks on the sharpener.

Hunting blades need not be shaving sharp. Indeed, the blades are designed to be "working" sharp, to cut through the skin, bone and sinews. With 420HC blades, it's not unheard of to have to resharpen them during a buck or elk dressing. Add to that the fact that collectors are paying hundreds of dollars and it seems natural to want a premium blade to go with them. Four-twenty HC is fine for hunters using inexpensive and well built knives similar to those their fathers used. But in this day and age, a 420 knife of any stripe just doesn't measure up to many modern steels.

Again, if it's going to have a fine, beautiful handle and be worthy of showing to others, the steel ought to be first rate. Otherwise, it's only half way there.
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For the price bracket you are talking about, you are spot on.
 
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