Why Doesn't BUCK Grow Beyond 420HC?

[Confederate]

They offer lots of choice. Basically, I don't see what the complaint is???

No, they offer some knives in S30V, but they aren't the $500 type of knives. At least I can't find any. Besides, would I actually use a $300-$450 knife? Yes, under many circumstances I would. People use Sebenzas, don't they?

Would anyone be willing to buy a Sebenza for $400 if it came with a 420HC blade?

Some of the answers so far I just can't buy into. Putting 420HC in a $500 knife because it's more rust resistant? I don't know how apt you think S30V or 154CM is, but rust isn't a huge problem with either. Easier to sharpen? Would anyone buy a $450 knife with 420HC and then use it? (Using it isn't the real issue. Paying that much and using it gives you what?

Buck obviously will continue to sell its beauty knives with 420HC as long as people pay for them; however, I won't pay that much for a knife unless the entire knife is premium. I'd also be much more inclined to use it if it had premium steel.

I have nothing against 440A and AUS8 steels, and I frequently carry and use knives with these steels. I, too, appreciate how well they sharpen; however, I wouldn't buy knives with these steels if the price was much over a hundred bucks and I certainly wouldn't buy many of the SOGs I see advertised. Why? Because I can do much better.

I've seen beautiful Bucks that yes, I would consider purchasing if they were offered with premium steels. It's just that 420HC is a lackluster performer, and (by the way, you do know that sharpening a knife frequently causes more wear, right?) people that spend good money for good knives probably know how to sharpen blades.

Buck ought to be ready to switch to a better steel anyway, even for its regular knives. Right now they should be looking at 440C or such. Although it's not the best steel, many regard it as the best overall steel for midrange knives. And you very seldom see it anymore.

I know people use (and like) SAKs, but let's face it, the steel is pretty rotten compared to what it could be. Buck is probably too wed to 420HC. That's why I think all their show pieces are 420HC—because it's so closely associated with the Buck name.

 

[sir woodley]

All I know about this is my Buck 110 in 420HC sharpens up to "shaving sharp" and holds a damned good edge! I plan to EDC it at work starting tomorrow for one month. It will be compared to my Barkies in A2 & 12c27. My D2 Queen & D2 Benchmade Snody. Also my Case CV's. I will put it to the test! MW

 

[shecky]

I contend if you buy a $500 knife, it probably doesn't matter what it's made of, as long as it has the elements that make it worth $500 to the purchaser. Usually something like a well recognized name.

 

[allenC]

raise your hand if you would pay $500 for a knife with 420HC steel.

I would IF....

1) I was a collector of Buck knives,
2) had no intentions of actually using the knife,
3) had $500.00 dollars to spend on a knife that I never intended to use.
4) had a very understanding wife.


In all seriousness....
While do prefer my Custom Shoppe Buck 110's with S30V, I can honestly say that my standard 420HC Buck 110 has never let me down when I needed a knife.

 

[avidknifeusersf]

If i was buying a knife to display I wouldn't care that it was using an 'inferior' steel. Its to display, ie for asthetics, so as long as it looks pretty, I'm there.

The OP cant make an arguement about what the problem with 420hc in a collectors knife is... Just that he wont pay for it on a expensive knife... But people will. People who only want to look at it, people who love Bucks, people who have more money, people who know its a fine steel, etc.

 

[Chris "Anagarika"]

The question is not whether people will or not.

The question is a 'premium knives' without premium material. Why Buck doesn't do that ..

We do not see this in other areas: watches, cars, etc. The premium model that fetch very high price compared to standard always comes with material + craftmanship.

 

[knarfeng]

The question is not whether people will or not.

The question is a 'premium knives' without premium material. Why Buck doesn't do that ..

We do not see this in other areas: watches, cars, etc. The premium model that fetch very high price compared to standard always comes with material + craftmanship.

I beg to differ. The premium watches from Tiffany's come with diamonds, not tritium markings. You find tritium on high end tactical watches. S30V steel would be equivalent to having a Tiffany diamond studded watch with Tritium hands, which is not something you see.

The knife in question is equivalent to a Tiffany piece, not an uber tactical field knife.

 

[hardheart]

But there are plenty of knives with precious stones and metals in the composition. The components of the Bucks in question are neither rare nor at the top of the performance scale in many areas. Inexpensive to procure and widely available.

It might be better to use paintings or sculpture. Hunks of marble or oil paints and canvas are common, it is the end result that sets the price. But then we're back to asking if we pay hundreds of dollars for the Buck name alone, like you would pay more for one artist name over another when they use the same brand of paint.

 

[Outdoors Fanatic]

Because Joe Six Pack simply don't know what the heck is CPM-D2.

 

[Evil Eye Earl]

The question is not whether people will or not.

The question is a 'premium knives' without premium material. Why Buck doesn't do that ..

We do not see this in other areas: watches, cars, etc. The premium model that fetch very high price compared to standard always comes with material + craftmanship.

Read post # 36 in this thread.

 

[avidknifeusersf]

Read post # 36 in this thread.

Have you been paying attention to this thread? Some people dont want answers... They want to feel better about not buying a $500 Buck, for whatever their reasons.

They also want people who do buy collectors pieces in 420 to feel silly theyre not buying into the latest greatest steel craze and instead are paying for the way draconian concepts of 'work' and 'design' and 'craftsmenship' and 'artistry.'

Cause you know steel will never become obsolete, so just because something excels at its purpose like 420HC for Buck, doesnt mean they shouldnt change it to Surigcal Grade, Frictionless Ti-S30 VG CPM10. And charging money for hand craftsmenship thats just foolish... Robots are the future!

Oh silly people...

 

[Josh K]

I recently read this web page: http://www.zknives.com/knives/articles/knifesteelfaq.shtml which has a very nice line up on common stainless/non-stainless steels. Might be worth a read.

 

[hardheart]

They also want people who do buy collectors pieces in 420 to feel silly theyre not buying into the latest greatest steel craze and instead are paying for the way draconian concepts of 'work' and 'design' and 'craftsmenship' and 'artistry.'

work, design, craftsmanship and artistry have nothing to do with using the best materials available at that time?

Cause you know steel will never become obsolete, so just because something excels at its purpose like 420HC for Buck, doesnt mean they shouldnt change it to Surigcal Grade, Frictionless Ti-S30 VG CPM10. And charging money for hand craftsmenship thats just foolish... Robots are the future!

I pay for hand craftsmanship. I also pay for premium materials. I don't understand this desire to compromise on a factor of a collector's piece. From Buck's own website -

S30V

This is the absolute best blade steel available
BG-42 Steel

An extremely high-performance, bearing grade, martensitic stainless steel
420HC Steel

This is Buck’s standard blade material

So instead of the absolute best blade steel available, or an extremely high performance stainless, for $500 you get the standard. Personally, I'd rather see the price go up and get the best Buck believes it can offer. But that's just my opinion.

 

[Confederate]

Although I fully understand what people when they say, "My 420HC blade has never failed me!" the fact is, neither, probably has your S30V or 154CM. Yet that doesn't mean that all blade steel should be 420HC, just because it hasn't let a lot of people down.

In the days when knights had their own armor made, they wanted not only beauty, but performance. All I'm saying is that if a knife is going to be worth collecting, it ought to be made out of the finest quality components. If no one is going to examine a ring or necklace, is it enough to use cheaper materials just because no one's going to examine the stones under a glass?

When it comes to knives, if one is going to excuse the use of pedestrian steel because it will never be used, how about if the handle is loose? Does that make a difference? Poor construction wouldn't be tolerated. Four-twenty HC is a low-end steel no matter how it's heat treated. And of course the question can be asked how many custom knife makers use 420HC for their knife blades. I know of none. I'm not a knife maker, but if I were, I would take so much pride in my product that it would be quality tip to aft, not hilt to aft. Just because it hasn't let people down doesn't make it a fine, quality steel.

I know of no pistol collector that would receive a fine Colt commemorative, find that it was out of time and had excessive play, who would then keep it and say, "Well, I don't intend to shoot it anyway." Everyone I know would send it back and say, "If I'm gonna pay six thousand dollars for a commemorative, I want the quality to be top notch!"

Of course the real answer to this issue is simple. Ask the customer. You're going to shell out five hundred bucks for a knife and you can choose between 420HC and S30V or some other nice steel, would anyone really choose 420HC? Or if you want to buy and use a nice chipflint knife, who would rather have 420HC than a premium knife steel?

 

[avidknifeusersf]

work, design, craftsmanship and artistry have nothing to do with using the best materials available at that time?

I pay for hand craftsmanship. I also pay for premium materials. I don't understand this desire to compromise on a factor of a collector's piece. From Buck's own website -

So instead of the absolute best blade steel available, or an extremely high performance stainless, for $500 you get the standard. Personally, I'd rather see the price go up and get the best Buck believes it can offer. But that's just my opinion.

The question is really the best material... for what purpose. Someone already stated 420HC is the best material for a collectors piece, because of its workability, high shine, and resistance to rust.

So my question is, if theyre selling and there are no complaints, why should Buck change it?

And I dont think craftsmenship has to do with using 'arguably' the best materials.

Bentley does a lot with the same materials BMW is using... probably even 'inferiror materials' old fashioned welding, no composites, etc.

Rembrandt did a lot with materials everyone else was using. (Stolen from someone else on BF).

Maybe I'm mistaken, but were talking about collectors pieces not meant to be used... so who cares if it doesnt have the edge retention of S30v, especially if does somethings better and is less expensive?

On a collectors piece, the whole point is looks, it seems to me 420hc aids in that in terms of traits it offers...

I respect hardhearts opinion on it, he cant be wrong on what he decides to spend his money on, I just dont understand why the blade material of a knife not meant for use is a deciding factor.

Its not like theyre charging $500 for a Walmart special Buck 110. You can obviously see the high quality of work and fit and finish that goes into it...

 

[Confederate]

...my question is, if theyre selling and there are no complaints, why should Buck change it?

Well, I'm not going to keep beating a dead horse, but I will say that the nicest knife I own is a Buck Vanguard. As for sales, perhaps you're correct; however, I've seen several Bucks that were attractive enough I would buy, but not if the blade's going to be 420HC. I'd get me a nice Damascus knife for the same price.

And I dont think craftsmenship has to do with using 'arguably' the best materials.

Okay, all you custom knife makers out there who use decent grade 420 or 420HC blades in your knives, raise your hands. A little higher, please? Let's see, that's...ummm...I don't think there are any out there. Would any custom knife makers buy a collector's Buck for several hundred dollars? (Maybe there are some, who knows?)

Maybe I'm mistaken, but were talking about collectors pieces not meant to be used... so who cares if it doesn't have the edge retention of S30v, especially if does somethings better and is less expensive? On a collector's piece, the whole point is looks, it seems to me 420hc aids in that in terms of traits it offers...

Again, if that's true, one would think reputable custom knife makers would be using 420HC blades in their pieces. Keep in mind that it's not just edge retention. The more you have to sharpen a knife, the more the knife wears. That would indicate that an S30V or other premium blade would last longer, having to be sharpened less.

So, why do custom knife makers put premium steel blades in knives that may never be used? I'm not dead sure, but I'm willing to guess it's because they're proud of their work and that they see a knife as a whole. As I stated earlier, how many people would buy Sebenzas if they suddenly were offered with AUS8? AUS8 isn't a bad steel, mind you; it's one of my favorites. Still, I don't think too many people would be buying them.

 

[Liam Ryan]

I believe it has a lot to do with tradition, a reason many people are collectors in the first place.

 

[shecky]

1070 is a very cheap steel, with a few notable downsides. Yet it's ideal for many custom makers, as it's easier to procure, work, forge, and heat treat on a small scale than something like 420. Or just about any stainless, for that matter. In this case, a $500 knife in 1070 is still not equipped with ideal steel, by my arbitrary standard. But if they can fetch that much, why should the maker care about my standards?

Again, by my arbitrary standard, there is absolutely no piece of steel, of any kind, in the quantity needed to make a knife, that is worth $500. But that's because I'm not that kind of knife nut. As I said earlier, if you're paying that much for a knife, it really doesn't matter what it's made of. You're paying for something that you regard as valuable. Buck may, in fact, sell more $500 knives if they were made from S30v, or 154CM, or unicorn teeth. But they presumably sell well enough made from lowly 420HC. It turns out that 420HC may be the best material for these knives after all.

 

[lvbuckeye27]

this question has been answered numerous times, yet several people are too busy running their own mouths to listen to what other people are saying. the short answer is that 420 takes a VERY HIGH POLISH, which is a pretty desirable characteristic in a display knife. 154CM, S30V, ATS34 (which IS 154CM), etc, DO NOT TAKE A HIGH POLISH.

and it's a simple fact of chemistry that a highly polished blade will resist corrosion better than a satin/bead-blasted/any-other-kind of finish.

bottom line is, if you don't like 'em, then for heaven's sake don't buy them!!! complaining to us about it won't do a lick of good.

 

[hardheart]

the short answer is that 420 takes a VERY HIGH POLISH, which is a pretty desirable characteristic in a display knife. 154CM, S30V, ATS34 (which IS 154CM), etc, DO NOT TAKE A HIGH POLISH

It's like you didn't even read the original post. The knife pictured is a chipflint. show me the high polish on the flats. BTW, some of us like active hamon, satin finish, patina, antiqued blades, as-forged finishes, even beadblast or coatings. Maybe you like mirror polish, but many don't.