Why Doesn't BUCK Grow Beyond 420HC?

neeman said:
A collector piece at $500 a throw retains its value as mint and unsharpened.
So what does the steel matter if it is going to remain unsharpened?

If this was a camera forum, whould we ask why do camera manufacturers make point and shoot cameras?
No.
It is clear there is a mass market for simple camera.
And as the user gets more advanced they want a better camera with a higher price.
But this is a smaller market and there will be less sold.

So brands like Buck and CRKT can meet the mass market with a knife according to the needs of the market (which is occasional use), using 420HC and the like.
And for constant hard usage there is the box cutter and stanley knife for $10 -$15 with a 100 blades.

When I give a knife to a non-knife guy, will I give him a knife with a steel he can't sharpen or a carbon steel that will rust from negect.
420HC or 440, that he can sharpen on what ever sharpener he has lying around in his kitchen drawer, will work fine.

And all this said, the 420HC in my Buck knives all are sharp and work well.
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I really hate how you lumped CRKT and Buck in the same "mass market" category. I would say the CRKT is middle of the road, with Buck being on the low end, and Spydies being on the high end.

I owned several Buck knives in their 420 option. Resharpening them wasn't hard, but after you open a few boxes you can start to feel the knife pulling a bit on the tape. It's annoying to loose that smooth edge so fast, and that's why I've stayed away from most of Buck's lineup.

Just me thinking out loud here, but when a company markets a knife as "Tactical" then sticks you with 420/440 steel, they're not really making a tactical knife. Bucks make great starter gifts for non knife people, but I think that they need to upgrade their basic steel option.

Most companies, Benchmade, Kershaw, Spyderco, hell even CRKT has a decent base of AUS-8. By making their low end models with higher end steels, you're increasing customer return and satisfaction.

The response to "I don't like the 420 steel in this knife" should not be "Well then go buy a different model in S30V." The basic steel should be good enough for all users.
 
Josh,

Ask non knife guys how much they are willing to spend on the one knife they will have.
What ever that price is, that is the mass market.
 
$30 and under for the Tenacious and most of the Byrd lineup. ;)

But you do have a good point. Hence my view of Buck knives as "entry level."
 
Dannyboy Leather said:
I asked this very steel question of Buck knives at a large knife show many years ago, they politely let me know that most of their customer base were not knife collectors or serious knife users. Most of their customers used their knives just a "few times throughout the year". So, for these "occasional knife users", the 420 steel kept the price and performance within their modest expectations.
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There have been lots of things in this thread that I STRONGLY disagree with (Buck knives are low-end, CRKT is middle of the road). But this quote (above) really crossed the line in my opinion. My experience has been that Buck knives are made and bought to be used and used often. There customer base (who may only use their knives a few times a year SKINNING DEER!) is a group that knows how to sharpen, properly use and maintain their knives. I think almost every other brand caters to the non-serious knife user more than Buck. I of course am referring to the venerable 110, as opposed to the knife in the OP. But the question was about the entire Buck line not just the pictured knife; and if your talking about the Buck line, you might as well talk about the 110.

Also some people pay more for high end steel because they haven't the slightest clue how to sharpen it and they need it to last longer. These same types use their knives for opening mail, not hunting.

I personally love Paul Bos 420HC in my Buck's. I think the original post was a legit question but I think if he had lots of experience with the steel in question he might think otherwise.
 
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Maybe 420HC is a good choice for tactical knives?It's tougher and more corrision resistant than most high end stainless steels used for tactical knives.
 
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Josh,

Is the average Joe entry level or a one time buyer till he loses his knife?

Mass Market?
Walk in to Walmart, to a regular store and a super store.
What do they carry?
If they don't have a fast turnover that is flows off the shelves, they will not carry it.
The cost of dead inventory is crippling for them.

LuciousClay,
Buck is here to make a buck.
They know their market.
And they have to sell to their market to make money.

Yes, hunters know how to take care of their knives.
But how many hunters are there? A small segment of the knife buying market.
But not the mass market that allows low mark up and high turnover.
 
I'm still wondering that people can't address the original question (perhaps due to inaccurate thread title):

Why Buck offers Premium Knives without Premium Steel? The buyer only falls into 2 categories: non-knife people who got attracted by the design/craftmanship but doesn't understand blade material and knife people who does. From these two, which market Buck is trying to address? If they change the material from 420HC to higher end, how much is the price difference? Will it turn off the non-knife buyer? It sure won't turn off the knife knuts.

What Buck does in general, the market demand, etc. has been discussed too much, but almost none touch the original question, except few. Larrin might touch the actual reason: ease of long time storage. However, if older knives, swords, from carbon steel can be kept in pristine condition with proper maintenance, why not a modern high end stainless?

If that's the case, why not move this to Buck section and get the answer from them?
 
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Steven Penner said:
http://www.buckknives.com/index.cfm?event=product.detail&productid=2925


I checked this link, on the Buck website before posting.
no S30V options listed by Buck...

in reading the thread, i see Cabella's may have it now...good to know.
I would call that a special private label order...not a Buck offering...
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Or you can get it in 154 CM or CPM 154 from Bass Pro. It's an improvement on their infamous 440C, one of the finest stainless steels anyone would ever use.

I don't mean to knock your friend. But if he's cutting through bones and hitting steel onto steel, he might need a ceramic blade. I don't see how anything is going to work very long, and truth is, 420HC might be as good as anything because of it's toughness. I've cut through bone and dinged several buck steels as well as Spyderco S30V. I've also dinged benchmade 154 CM, supposedly some of the best in the business.

If you ask real nice, I think somebody can tell your friend how to get your preferred D2 in a Buck 118 treated by Paul Bos. That's one of the finest hunting knives ever made.

Good luck.
 
lsstaipei said:
Maybe 420HC is a good choice for tactical knives?It's tougher and more corrision resistant than most high end stainless steels used for tactical knives.
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Tougher? What exactly do you mean? My experience with 420 is that it takes a very keen edge, but it won't hold that edge for long.

Silverdagger said:
Or you can get it in 154 CM or CPM 154 from Bass Pro. It's an improvement on their infamous 440C, one of the finest stainless steels anyone would ever use.

I don't mean to knock your friend. But if he's cutting through bones and hitting steel onto steel, he might need a ceramic blade. I don't see how anything is going to work very long, and truth is, 420HC might be as good as anything because of it's toughness. I've cut through bone and dinged several buck steels as well as Spyderco S30V. I've also dinged benchmade 154 CM, supposedly some of the best in the business.
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Aren't ceramic blades prone to chipping and cracking under hard use? Hence they are normally used as light duty kitchen knives, not carving.
 
Maybe so. Point is, Steven's friend is putting his knives to brutal use. I don't know of any steel that will hold up and you might as well have a tough one and be ready to sharpen often.

I recall one person griping and complaining and doing everything else about Kershaw's steel. Ken Onion stated simply "I suggest you learn how to sharpen your knives". There is a ton of truth to that.

I know what the guys are saying. Doesn't a collector deserve superior steel. Maybe so. That said, collectors are never used, and 99% of the public will just look and say; "Wow, that's a pretty knife". It isn't like it will be used, and how long does 154CM or D2 last longer than 420HC? Maybe twice as long?

Remember, S30V is supposed to outlast the old 440C steel by 45%. That simply means a 6 inch 440C will last just as long as a 4 inch S30V. You can up your blade length a little and cut just as long.
 
I think Buck has a tendency to overrate its own steel. On their graphs, they show 420HC as being a little below 440C, but better than AUS8 (and we're talking edge retention). The fact is, 420 stainless steels have less than .5 percent of carbon. The higher 420HC nudges this up to .4 or .5, but how Buck can claim this is anywhere near 440A, which has a carbon content of .75 percent, or 440C, which typically has about 1.2 percent, is confusing at best.

Some hunters point out, correctly, that blood contains corrosive salts, and that 420 steels resist this corrosion better than higher carbon steels. Well, okay, but you'd have to totally neglect a knife to make this a real issue. Normally a cold soak in clear water will remove the corrosive salts. Others point out that the Paul Bos heat treating makes the 420HC better than some better blades that aren't heat treated quite as well. Fine, but just think if Buck used a better steel and applied the same attention to heat treat.

CRKT likely doesn't pay the same attention to its steel as Buck does. I notice, in fact, that the latest Cabela's catalog shows the AUS8 used in the CRKT knives it carries is a Rockwell of 56. Whether that's an error or whether it's because they've tested the CRKTs it carries, I don't know. I do know that AUS8 by Cold Steel is very close to 58. Comparing 420HC favorably to AUS10 is nothing more than a joke.

Again, paying $29-59 on a knife that has 420HC is not a problem for me, though I'd likely choose another knife with better steel. But when spending $395 on a small, beautiful knife, why would I want 420HC? Wouldn't it make more sense to take the same money and buy a beautiful knife made by someone here who will give you a whole premium knife instead of half a one?

It doesn't necessarily have to be an S30V blade; I have ATS-34 blades that I've found to be astoundingly good. It's just that 420 steels can only be made so good, then they can't be made any better. It's just sad (as Ross Perot would say) to see it used in beautiful collector's pieces.
 
The amount of carbon when comparing steel may be a bit misleading. 420HC and 440A are spec'd to different amounts of carbon, but their hardness ranges are still the same. The extra carbon in 440A alone isn't much advantage unless you feel steel is purely a numbers game.
 
"I think Buck has a tendency to overrate its own steel. "

Buck has stated their test are done with the CATRA. Thus their ratings are based upon industry standard data, not supposition. That's why they "buck" the desk chair metallurgists and depend upon real data to show up some of the "steel myths."

"But when spending $395 on a small, beautiful knife, why would I want 420HC?"

This has been answered by many. 420 HC is not bad, its tough, takes a great polish and won't readily rust. You can leave it in a display cabinet and it won't rust and you don't have to rub it down every few months. You can take it into the field and beat with it and it won't chip out.

"Wouldn't it make more sense to take the same money and buy a beautiful knife made by someone here who will give you a whole premium knife instead of half a one?"

No it doesn't make sense, because Buck-lovers want Bucks not customs made by makers. Plus, the Buck cutlers for their special projects have a lot more experience than that part time maker giving you that kind of knife for only 400, thus the fit and finish may actually be better on the Buck.

"It's just sad (as Ross Perot would say) to see it used in beautiful collector's pieces." Its sad only if your a short texan that doesn't understand :)

Plus why beat on Buck. For example, Case uses True Sharp for all of their collectible models except a very few.
 
Confederate said:
CRKT likely doesn't pay the same attention to its steel as Buck does. I notice, in fact, that the latest Cabela's catalog shows the AUS8 used in the CRKT knives it carries is a Rockwell of 56. Whether that's an error or whether it's because they've tested the CRKTs it carries, I don't know. I do know that AUS8 by Cold Steel is very close to 58. Comparing 420HC favorably to AUS10 is nothing more than a joke.
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I prefer the lower hardness of CRKT's knives. The edges tend to be less brittle, and the edge holding is still more then fine. I've cut wire, some cans, etc with my M21, and the edge doesn't chip like other knives. Just rolls a bit.
 
Josh K said:
Tougher? What exactly do you mean? My experience with 420 is that it takes a very keen edge, but it won't hold that edge for long.
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I don't know exactly what tactical knives are.:p
But in my imagination,steels used for tactical knives should be more resistant to fracture.I guess 420HC at HRC 55 is a good choice.I've served in the army and my dad was a patrolman for 30 years on the streets, and we didn't have many abrasive stuffs to cut in those days.
 
You mean like the 440C, ATS-34, S30V, or BG-42 shown here? :p

Buck110s.jpg
 
raise your hand if you would pay $500 for a knife with 420HC steel.

now keep it up if you actually did, cause this is Bladeforums, and the knives exist.
 
hardheart said:
raise your hand if you would pay $500 for a knife with 420HC steel.
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That wouldn't be my first choice, but the Chipflint series are cool and unique, so if I were collecting them, the steel type wouldn't stop me.


(BTW -- I'm not collecting them, so I can spend my $500 on other knives...not like it would be going to the electric company or the gasoline card anyway.) ;)
 
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