Why Doesn't BUCK Grow Beyond 420HC?

STR, you make excellent points. :thumbup:

As a general user and a backup hunting, camp, and belt knife, my 110 is reliable and I've found absolutely nothing wrong with the 420HC despite the supersteels that other knives boast in my collection---sometimes, compared to CPM D2, S30V, S60V, and all the others, it's nice to know something simple is still effective (and sometimes outperforms) in this day and age.
 
I just put a nice keen edge on my 110 - didn't take very long at all and it's hair-popping sharp. Ease-of-sharpening reminds me a lot of Victorinox steel, but the 420HC holds an edge for longer. This stuff gets SHARP with minimal effort.

420HC is a great user steel. Extremely stain resistant, rolls instead of chips out, easy to sharpen and reprofile... and low cost!

Confederate - why don't you give Buck a call and ask them yourself? :)
 
Well, apparently people are buying the knives anyway, so why should Buck put premium steel in its premium knives? I have to admit that I wouldn't either, if I could get away with it. The 420HC is cheaper, easier to work with and to heat treat.

What amazes me is how many people say, "Well, I haven't had a problem with my 420HC knives. Works fine for me!" That may be true. I haven't had any problems with my AUS8A knives from Cold Steel, either, but I don't think I'd pay $400+ for a knife that featured it, and that's my point.

The 420HC steel isn't a bad steel for its price, but in a $400+ knife, it's crummy steel; unbelievably bad. In a $29 knife it's wonderful steel.

Aesop tells the story of a fox that invites an hunter to dinner. It's a cold day and when the hunter comes in, the fox notices that the hunter blows into his hands. "Why do you do that," the fox asks.

"Oh, to warm my hands," the hunter replied. But when they were seated, the fox served some hot soup to the hunter. He then noticed that the hunter blew into the soup.

"Why do you do that," the fox asked.

"Because the soup is hot," the hunter said. "I blow on the soup to cool it off."

At this inconsistency the fox became so angry that he took the soup from the hunter and immediately dismissed him from his home.

It only seems inconsistent, though. Buck's 420HC stainless is a good steel, but only within the context of value.
 
Confederate said:
The 420HC steel isn't a bad steel for its price, but in a $400+ knife, it's crummy steel; unbelievably bad. In a $29 knife it's wonderful steel.
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I understand your point, but as I said earlier in the thread, if you're willing to shell out $400+ knife, it really doesn't matter what it's made out of. You're purchasing much more than steel.
 
You're right about Buck purposely changing to 420HC. They used 440C and switched to 420HC because 440C was too difficult to get really sharp for the average user. Something along the lines of the 440C had too much carbon particles along the edge to keep an edge no matter how much the average customer tried to get it very sharp.
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First off this is an excellent thread...just a great discussion.

I wanted to point out or reply to the quote above. Buck switched from 440c to 425M in 1981ish due to their move to blanking knives for efficiency reason. Apparently, 440c is difficult to blank. Then they changed again to 420HC because of the ability to blank even more efficiently than 425M.

In the end, it was all about lean manufacturing and cost reduction...something absolutely needed in this day and age of Chinese imports that compete directly against the 110 for the average (non-knife nut) user’s dollars.

Ease of sharpening & higher stain resistance were a plus but not the reason.

Also, I agree with Confederate that a knife in the $400 price range should have a premium steel. The cost increase is marginal and a purchaser of said knife would accept the small increased cost.

All that said, I am a fan of 420hc as an entry level knife but prefer Bos heat treated 154cm and 425M both of which I can get very sharp and am satisfied with their edge retention.

Anyway, Buck is coming out with a new steel offering to be revealed at the Shot Show in January. Something they have not previously used and it promises to be between S30V and 420HC in performance at 420HC prices.

It will be interesting to learn what this steel might be. It’s not new steel as other are using it...just new to Buck. If they follow their past history of outstanding geometry and heat treating it should be a big winner for them.
 
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I have not read every post in this thread, so maybe this has already been stated in some fashion. I would have to guess that a vast majority of knife buyers could NOT tell you what type of steel their blade is and they will never resharpen their own knife. They eventually just buy another inexpensive knife. 420HC works for me. Easy to get sharp and I enjoy touching up an edge. I also like BG-42, S30V, and CPM154. Your average person looking to buy a knife at WM any other retail shop probably couldn't even name one steel.
 
Confederate said:
...
The 420HC steel isn't a bad steel for its price, but in a $400+ knife, it's crummy steel; unbelievably bad.
In a $29 knife it's wonderful steel.
...
Buck's 420HC stainless is a good steel, but only within the context of value.
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You have said it all! :thumbup::thumbup:
 
Confederate said:
I got my new Cabela's catalog today and saw some of Buck's new offerings. They have some beautiful (and expensive) knives out, with very attractive handles and blade shapes and styles. But in the end, regardless of how many hundreds of dollars the knives may go for, the same 420HC Buck flagship steel is used, and it's getting a bit tiresome.

Why doesn't Buck use premium steel in its premium knives??? No matter what sort of a decorative handle a Buck Vanguard may have, or how nicely etched a blade or how beautiful the turquoise is in a handle, it still gets back to the blade, doesn't it? And we all know Buck is adept in making S30V steels, so why wouldn't they use them in these gorgeous knives they offer for the...ummm...big BUCK$?

I love the Buck designs, the chipflint blades, the Gen-5 skinners and many of their other limited edition knives, but frankly, I feel that 420HC is getting a bit long in the tooth. What's your take?

Buck%20Chipflint%20Kalinga%20401LE.jpg


This Buck Kalinga sells for $500. So why is the blade only 420HC?
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Confederate,

After re-reading your initial post #1 shown above, and all the many following posts here since your thread started, I figured I would ask you the following question..


sunnyd said:
Confederate,

I'm not sure it has been brought up in here yet, so I will ask you the question:

If you are really looking to purchase a Buck knife with premium steel, why not just go to Buck's Custom Shoppe?

See the link below..

http://www.buckknives.com/index.cfm?event=customKnife.build

They will hook you up.
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For a very nominal fee you can upgrade your blade steel, not to mention scales, engraving options, ect.

I'll ask again.. Have you checked out the Buck Custom Shop?
 
I have an Alaskan Guide 110 in S30V, a Sirius in ATS-34 and a Vanguard in 154CM. I guess they do use other steels.

Chad
 
sunnyd said:
If you are really looking to purchase a Buck knife with premium steel, why not just go to Buck's Custom Shoppe?
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Custom knives are quite a bit out of reach presently. You can always have someone build a specific knife for an even more expensive price.

My concern is that production runs are the way to go. They keep the cost of knives down and this is a system that has worked. It's another reason why Buck should use better steel in their premium knives.

Look, all I'm saying is that a four hundred dollar knife ought to have an exquisite blade. I just bought two Cold Steel Kanjos for the monthly special of two for $200. This brings down the price to a hundred dollars per knife, but I probably wouldn't have paid even that had the blades been 420HC.
 
I have never had a problem with Buck folders,at least the 110 type,(don't fool with the plastic ones),takeing and holding a good edge,although I wouldn't try useing them as a pry bar.
 
As far as collecters makeing up the bulk of buyers I believe that would apply to Case knives,pretty,lots o' dots,etc.but don't seem to perform well in the sharpening and edge holding,nice to put in display cases and swap,buy,and sell.
That;s what I see most of at gun/knife shows.
 
sunnyd said:
Confederate,

After re-reading your initial post #1 shown above, and all the many following posts here since your thread started, I figured I would ask you the following question..





For a very nominal fee you can upgrade your blade steel, not to mention scales, engraving options, ect.

I'll ask again.. Have you checked out the Buck Custom Shop?
Click to expand...

They don't offer upgraded steels for all models though. If I could still get Buck knives in ATS-34 (Rather then 154CM) I would probably buy a couple. Lack of options, and imho, lack of innovation has kept me away from Buck in recent years.


I'd also like to add, that they $500 knife like that, is probably going to be a safe queen, and 420HC is very stainless, and also takes (imo) the best finish of any other steel. It polishes up beautifully. Eye candy is expensive I guess.
 
sunnyd said:
For a very nominal fee you can upgrade your blade steel, not to mention scales, engraving options, ect. I'll ask again.. Have you checked out the Buck Custom Shop?
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No, actually, because they'd just charge me extra for something that should come with their premium knives, in my opinion. The Kalinga is a chipflint style knife and I doubt that Buck makes it in S30V and VG-10. For five hundred dollars, I'd love to have it come with a premium steel. I might even use it, too, but it's getting up there in price already.

"Production" custom knives are still production and there should be some price reduction because of it. I like the chipflint design and would like to get one I could use for a fraction of the price, then I wouldn't care if it was 420HC. What's so difficult about making a half-finished, half raw styled knife, anyway?

I do appreciate your suggestion, but feel like spending more money to get the type of blade it should have in it anyway is sort of an insult. In short, I'd rather that my $500 knife already have the steel I want, and not have it be extra.

Josh K said:
I'd also like to add, that they $500 knife like that, is probably going to be a safe queen, and 420HC is very stainless, and also takes (imo) the best finish of any other steel. It polishes up beautifully. Eye candy is expensive I guess.
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Yep, but I just got two beautiful Cold Steel Konjos with polished San Mai that would knock your socks off, and I paid only $100 apiece for them. Even though San Mai is a bit of a rip off (as VG-1 stainless is plenty tough and stain resistant), it's still gorgeous and more expensive to make.
 
Confederate said:
I like the chipflint design and would like to get one I could use for a fraction of the price, then I wouldn't care if it was 420HC. What's so difficult about making a half-finished, half raw styled knife, anyway?
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It's funny, but it's probably significantly more difficult making a knife like that from Buck's stock of 420HC. Getting a fine blankable steel to emulate the look of a crudely hand forged blade is probably something of a feat.

It seems you still don't quite get the idea that the type of steel is really unimportant when a person lays down that kind of money for a knife. A $400 knife is not made from a $400 billet of steel. Or even a $200 billet of steel. The cost of the materials for almost any knife is only a fraction of what it may sell for, and that fraction often gets smaller as the price goes up. Very often, when a person puts that kind of scratch down for a knife such as your example, they do it more for what the knife represents. Not for it's value as scrap metal.
 
First off I'd like to aplaud the posters in this thread.An 8 page debate that didn't turn into a slugging match.Bravo to all.:)
second.I have a Buck/Strider 889 that I carry for work.I beat it regularly against wood,steel and even concrete.(everyone drps things once in a while).I have found the 420hc to be a really resiliant steel.i carrya small ceramic stone in my work coat and touch it up every now and then.once every couple of months i'll take it home and give it a good sharpening and the process is repaeted again and again.I now have a 119 that gets some time in the woods beside my main knives and I have given 420hc Buck knives as gifts to people I care about and I trust the knife and it's steel to pull them through anything they'll get into.
 
sunnyd said:
Confederate,

I'm not sure it has been brought up in here yet, so I will ask you the question:

If you are really looking to purchase a Buck knife with premium steel, why not just go to Buck's Custom Shoppe?

See the link below..

http://www.buckknives.com/index.cfm?event=customKnife.build

They will hook you up.
Click to expand...

Why do people keep pointing out the custom shoppe? It's obvious that they want the knife they're looking at in a better steel, not just an alpha hunter or Buck 110. :rolleyes:
 
I'm willing to concede that a custom knife's cost of materials is a fraction of it's final price, but the same would be true if the blade was made of a premium steel. And any stainless steel can take a mirror polish.

The thing is, if I have a $500 knife, I want the knife to have the best quality steel available. Would anyone really want to pay that much for a knife and find that it was glued together? But it's only going to be a safe queen, you might say, but that makes little difference. You still want it to be a good knife.

Again, how many Sebenzas could/would CR sell if he offered them for $75 less and made the blades from 420HC? Yes, but people use their Sebenzas, you might say, and so they do, but it's not like they get a massive (or any more than a modest) performance boost. Still, Sebenza owners want the components to be the best, and they're willing to pay whatever it takes.

In short, no one wants someone else to say, "Hey, my Alaskan Buck xXx is better than your fancy custom xXx because it's got a much better blade!" Yet technically it's true. So it is a collector's piece? It should be at least as good as their best knife in that line.

Excalibur was mostly a ceremonial sword, but I doubt that King Arthur would have taken it well if Merlin had told him, "Don't swing it too hard because it's really not made as well as Lancelot's. Think of it as more of a safe queen."
 
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