Why Doesn't BUCK Grow Beyond 420HC?

hardheart said:
depends on what you are saying is incorrect. If it is that hardness generally equates to edge holding, that is arguable, and has been argued a fair bit. Phil Wilson has posted a few times saying that increased hardness gives him increased cutting life, so he runs his knives fairly hard. Nozh2002 showed very good extended performance from S60V which didn't get run past Rc56-57 (IIRC) because of brittleness issues.

Now, if it's that 420HC doesn't hold an edge well, again that is purely subjective. Why it doesn't hold an edge well - alloy content, carbide fraction, maximum attainable hardness, who knows.
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I agree completely with your concept. In my experience with 420HC however, I find that the typical hard use outdoor chores that one would normally perform works with in reasonable expectations, IMO. Overall varied methods of different types of quench and heat treating would also improve performance along with hardness. It is a delicate balance. No question about it.

Please see the following link and scroll down the page to about half way. Specifically under Types of Blade Steels. You will see the 420HC steel specifications denoting the Bos heat-treat process and Rockwell Hardness of 58.

http://www.buckknives.com/index.cfm?event=about.feature
 
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Confederate said:
I got my new Cabela's catalog today and saw some of Buck's new offerings. They have some beautiful (and expensive) knives out, with very attractive handles and blade shapes and styles. But in the end, regardless of how many hundreds of dollars the knives may go for, the same 420HC Buck flagship steel is used, and it's getting a bit tiresome.

Why doesn't Buck use premium steel in its premium knives??? No matter what sort of a decorative handle a Buck Vanguard may have, or how nicely etched a blade or how beautiful the turquoise is in a handle, it still gets back to the blade, doesn't it? And we all know Buck is adept in making S30V steels, so why wouldn't they use them in these gorgeous knives they offer for the...ummm...big BUCK$?

I love the Buck designs, the chipflint blades, the Gen-5 skinners and many of their other limited edition knives, but frankly, I feel that 420HC is getting a bit long in the tooth. What's your take?

Buck%20Chipflint%20Kalinga%20401LE.jpg


This Buck Kalinga sells for $500. So why is the blade only 420HC?
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Honestly speaking from real world use perspectives I'd rather have a blade with great edge and primary grind geometry in 420HC or AUS6 over some super premium stainless with a terrible edge and primary grind geometry. I've used a lot of Bucks and they do one thing that many so called better steel blades from others don't do and that is they work. They slice, they make the job fairly easy by comparison and honestly edge holding is not so important in the field as easy maintenance and they have that down also.

I mean seriously it can be a super steel and not be worth a darn for even so much as sharpening a pencil sometimes and I could site some examples. How much effort should sharpening a pencil or whittling a piece of wood out on the back porch be? You want a wake up call pick up your Buck 110 from K-Mart in 420HC and do that sometimes with one from somewhere else in even ZDP189 that has an edge so thick it doesn't even maximize the potential of the steel and compare.

A lot of people have asked me at times what makes Spyderco so great? My simple answer is the same for Spyderco or Buck, use one and tell me. Now granted Buck wasn't always this way. Some of the older knives didn't come much different than the ones I think of that are not so good now. Somewhere along the line though they changed things and now most every new Buck you buy slices up with the best and performs on par with about anything twice the price usually. I'd say you get what you pay for.

By the way, my brother has a Kalinga I gave him that I bought many years back at A.G.Russells' store in Arkansas. Its 420HC. I've given him expensive knives in the past and believe me you know the knives because we've all used them and heard of all of them and out of all those his favorite user that he tells me about time and time again when we talk about knives is that old Buck Kalinga. He hunts big time and takes it quite seriously. He has used all of them I've given him at least once or twice but I trust his opinion that the Kalinga knife just works better than any of the others. According to him everything about it is spot on for what its designed to do regardless of the steel the blade is made out of because believe me he doesn't know or much care about that the way we do. He goes with what works plain and simple and doesn't dwell much on anything else.

STR
 
STR said:
Honestly speaking from real world use perspectives I'd rather have a blade with great edge and primary grind geometry in 420HC or AUS6 over some super premium stainless with a terrible edge and primary grind geometry. I've used a lot of Bucks and they do one thing that many so called better steel blades from others don't do and that is they work. They slice, they make the job fairly easy by comparison and honestly edge holding is not so important in the field as easy maintenance and they have that down also.

I mean seriously it can be a super steel and not be worth a darn for even so much as sharpening a pencil sometimes and I could site some examples. How much effort should sharpening a pencil or whittling a piece of wood out on the back porch be? You want a wake up call pick up your Buck 110 from K-Mart in 420HC and do that sometimes with one from somewhere else in even ZDP189 that has an edge so thick it doesn't even maximize the potential of the steel and compare.

A lot of people have asked me at times what makes Spyderco so great? My simple answer is the same for Spyderco or Buck, use one and tell me. Now granted Buck wasn't always this way. Some of the older knives didn't come much different than the ones I think of that are not so good now. Somewhere along the line though they changed things and now most every new Buck you buy slices up with the best and performs on par with about anything twice the price usually. I'd say you get what you pay for.

By the way, my brother has a Kalinga I gave him that I bought many years back at A.G.Russells' store in Arkansas. Its 420HC. I've given him expensive knives in the past and believe me you know the knives because we've all used them and heard of all of them and out of all those his favorite user that he tells me about time and time again when we talk about knives is that old Buck Kalinga. He hunts big time and takes it quite seriously. He has used all of them I've given him at least once or twice but I trust his opinion that the Kalinga knife just works better than any of the others. According to him everything about it is spot on for what its designed to do regardless of the steel the blade is made out of because believe me he doesn't know or much care about that the way we do. He goes with what works plain and simple and doesn't dwell much on anything else.

STR
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I agree with everything you just said. My only qualm about Buck, is if they did expand their base level steel, then it'd be like Spyderco hunting knives. :thumbup:
 
STR:

That was a good post. This topic peaked my interest in 420 and been reading up on it. You're right about Buck purposely changing to 420HC. They used 440C and switched to 420HC because 440C was too difficult to get really sharp for the average user. Something along the lines of the 440C had too much carbon particles along the edge to keep an edge no matter how much the average customer tried to get it very sharp.

Also, I've looked up the following and they are in fact equivalent to the trade name "420HC".

x46ch13 (Europe)
40ch13 (Russia)
4034 (Taiwan)

I also have a knife out of Shieffield that is SF100. It is a mariner knife. A very good knife with a plain jane rosewood handle. SF100 steel rocks. It's also a close match to 420HC with just a little higher carbon spec.
 
Culpeper said:
STR:

That was a good post. This topic peaked my interest in 420 and been reading up on it. You're right about Buck purposely changing to 420HC. They used 440C and switched to 420HC because 440C was too difficult to get really sharp for the average user. Something along the lines of the 440C had too much carbon particles along the edge to keep an edge no matter how much the average customer tried to get it very sharp.

Also, I've looked up the following and they are in fact equivalent to the trade name "420HC".

x46ch13 (Europe)
40ch13 (Russia)
4034 (Taiwan)

I also have a knife out of Shieffield that is SF100. It is a mariner knife. A very good knife with a plain jane rosewood handle. SF100 steel rocks. It's also a close match to 420HC with just a little higher carbon spec.
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I have a 112 from the seventies and a 110 from the early eighties. What steel are these made of, 420 or 440c?
 
rick43t3 said:
I have a 112 from the seventies and a 110 from the early eighties. What steel are these made of, 420 or 440c?
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For the 110
1964 - 1980 = 440C
1981 - 1993 = 425M
1994 - Date = 420HC

The 112 follows the same date pattern for all intents.
 
Is 440C as easily blanked as 420? If not, the move to 420 may be a significant cost cutting effort, which would account for the fact that the 110 has gotten less expensive since I was a kid in the 70s when inflation is factored in.
 
Hi guys,
long thread this one. i would like to give my opinion on this matter also. Since I work for a steel maker I could maybe shed som light (or strategic darkness ;)) over some issues here. FYI: I represent Sandvik and we do not supply any 420HC to anybody.

In no particular order:
1. Corrosion resistance. Forumites dont need this aspect since they take care of their knives. The average hunter needs it since they occasionally forget to clean their equipment.
2. Toughness. This is imo not considered enough in the US. Here in Europe this has more attention. Hard use knives requires toughness. 420HC has ok toughness.
3. Regrindability. Again, most forumites can regrind ZDP189 at 65 HRC. But the average hunter/outdoorsman cant.
4. Fineblankability. Efficient production (laser is closing in but blanking is still better for large volumes). 440C, 154CM, D2, ATS34, any CPM, ZDP or SG2 cant be fineblanked. They require lasercutting.
5. Polish, some blades require polishing. 420HC polishes reasonably well.
6. Hardness, 56-58 is considered by many to be "good enough" for edge retention.

Having said this I just want to 'hint' that other steels fulfills/exceeds all of these demands.

Regards
//Jerker
 
A.P.F. said:
Jerker, that is as subtle as a 14C28 crowbar. ;):D
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Well, what do you expect ;)? Atleast I'm clear about who I am, right?

Nevertheless, I do think my points are valid. Even if I am no fan of 420HC personally, I must credit Buck for bringing out absolutly maximum performance from that steel.

//Jerker
 
Culpeper said:
STR:
They used 440C and switched to 420HC because 440C was too difficult to get really sharp for the average user.
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On more than one occasion I have had typical end line users tell me straight faced with all due seriousness what crap S30V and D2 steel is. Its usually related to not seeing any noticed results to speak of when trying to get one resharpened. Many times when I get a referral from Kabar or one of the sources that refer people to me I end up in lengthy conversations with them over the phone. A lot of these 'good ole boys' as I refer to them, are folks that don't own or much care for computers. They just have an old companion knife that needs work or a tweak that they want to talk about. Usually its one from the 'old days' and they compare that and the the steel used then to what is available today and they do this from their own 'real world use' perspectives as I call it based on how they see it.

I've been taken aback at times at how some feel this need to vent about the current trend toward all this space age design and losing site of just a good viable working tool for the average man that won't get you arrested the moment you pull it out to use it but thats another story.

Anyway, as is typical sometimes they vent about sharpening difficulty. I experienced this with my old neighbor also who is one of the folks I consider a real world 'sounding board' for the average knife user, computer illiterate, non knife nut type person. You know the types. They hunt white tail every year and they get one. Then they proudly hang their deer in the garage or the swing out back or even out front as was the case with this gent for all the neighborhood to see as they prepare it through all the steps from hoisting it off the truck, to the skinning, to the band saw, to the freezer wrap in portions, to the ice box. When I was still working some with Kershaw for field testing a few knives now and then they sent me one of the S30V Leeks and the ZDP189 Leek models at the same time and I gave my neighbor that S30V Leek (actually I traded him for some deer sausage truth be told :D ) but my point is he brought it back to me later. Here is why.

I forget now how much later it was when he did this. I guess it was more than a month or so and of course it was duller than you can imagine by then. He had it out handing it to me and said I could have this 'thing' back cause he quit using it. I said whats wrong with it? His comment was this. "Its no good. I can't get it sharp. I found me a 'good one at Wal-Mart." The one he had from Wal-Mart was a new Scallion in the lesser grade steel and a much cheaper knife too as we all know. Now some might say well all this guy needs is educated. Honestly, I disagree here. I think he knows what works just fine for himself. In his mind that Scallion with whatever steel it was is light years better than the so called super steel he handed back to me. Why? He can sharpen that super steel the same way he can the other one and more importantly he sees results at an accelerated pace when he sharpens that new one.

Its one thing to have all this super hard stuff for us nuts but its very impractical to offer it to the average end line user I think. Kershaw and Buck both have the right idea to still offer these premium steels to those that want them. Kershaw does some exotics in smaller numbers. Buck has the custom shop, and premium knives if one wants one in a better steel. Thats working I think and a good way to go. Kershaw for example offered that S110V in a short 600 or so total made models to please the knife nuts out there.

I noticed when we spent some time in Alaska that one knife I saw being used a lot along the shore up there in Dillingham was a little Cold Steel knife, full serrated and barely visible in the hand in use but when I inquired on three occasions from three different natives living there as to what they preferred they all had this little "Ready Edge" handy or in their hands using them. They usually were spotted with blood stains and dings all along the edge or point but still working just fine for net cutting and fish prep. I don't know what steel is used in these but I can bet its nothing we'd write home about you know? One even told me he used it on Moose which didn't surprise me really since they hunt and kill Moose (legally) there using 22LR. You just never know what makes the average joe happy I guess.

I think Buck has found a pretty good steel that seems to keep all sides concerned quite content personally. Its seems to fit the bill for a wide range of uses and tastes just fine. Kershaw went through some birth pains so to speak when they started using the Sandvik steel and I'm sure we recall some of the arguement there on that and yet most folks seem quite happy with it and quite happy with the new steel too that is made just for them. Listen to the average joe now and then. It helps ground us back to reality sometimes. We all struggle to always find the bigger better deal. I guess thats human nature but when you really look at it and I mean really look, we still haven't found anything as versatile as good ole 1095 that has been around forever. It can be a fine wood carver or a heavy duty chopper blade. It can be 56 Rockwell, or 62 Rockwell and walk any street you want it to for cutlery use but folks want stainless. When we find a stainless as versatile as this lowly grade of steel we'll really have something. :thumbup:



STR
 
Good point, STR. There is some sense to the reason Douk Douks, Okapis, Opinels, machetes, etc are rarely harder than about 55HRc. And are highly esteemed even by knife nuts who value such things as exotic steel at high hardness.
 
STR, I know what you are saying. The other day, I was on the gun range. I looked at this guy's knife he had clipped to his pocket, and recognized it as a Minigrip.

I asked to see it. He was pleased to pull it out of his pocket and show it to me and brag about it. It was a black Cabelas D2. I pulled out my yellow 154 CM mini and showed it to him. He said he had a couple of Rittergrips, but didn't like the S30V, as it chipped, and he would prefer the Ritter in 154 CM.

He' s probably a member here, or how else would he know so much. I didn' t ask. As we were bragging and showing off our fancy knives, to most people, the guy who was in charge of the range that day was sitting at a picnic table. He was sharpening his Kershaw Scallion. He said, oblivious to the fancy steel talk we were talking about and said, "It's not fancy, but it holds a heck of edge". The other minigrip guy and I said nice knife, but it didn't do anything for us. That said, the Scallion was enough for that guy and held a decent edge, and he was OK with his knife that cost around half of our mini grips.
 
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Ebbtide said:
Buck obviously knows their marketshare/demographic.
:D
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Amen to that. Its hard to argue with their success in that regard.
~ ~ ><> ~ ~ ~ ><> ~ ~

Someone else here in this thread (I can't recall who at the moment) recently did give Buck there due by stating, (I'm paraphrasing) ..

'I'll give them credit as they have made the most out of 420HC.' Referring to Buck knives and delivering a decent tool to the typical end user.

The average "good ole boy" or "average Joe" as STR says being the user.. I think this says it pretty well.

And Hey, don't underestimate the average fellow who uses his or her knife every day either.
 
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