Why Doesn't BUCK Grow Beyond 420HC?

[Culpeper]

Thanks. I've noticed that Boker and Taiwan makers are using 4034 and best I can tell by looking stuff up on the internet it is basically an equivalent to 420HC. Just something I've come across lately. It looks as if 420HC is a tradename. Perhaps 420HC is something like 420S45, x46cr13, and 40ch13?

 

[Josh K]

Serious question. What is wrong with 420HC?

Poor edge retention. Poor finish. Generally considered a "cheap" steel. Not something I'd ever want in my knife, unless it was disposable. It can't be hardened enough to hold an edge well, even if it initially takes a very sharp edge.

 

[Smash05]

nevermind.

 

[sunnyd]

Poor edge retention. Poor finish. Generally considered a "cheap" steel. Not something I'd ever want in my knife, unless it was disposable. It can't be hardened enough to hold an edge well, even if it initially takes a very sharp edge.

Typically, I wouldn't have posted here about such nonsense. But, this is the classic ignorant knee jerk reaction post about Buck's 420HC by a human being with no experience with Buck knives whatsoever. Buck's 420HC is in a class all by itself due to the company's famous quench, heat treat and superior grinding. You have obviously never used a Buck knife in your life..

I've owned many Buck knives and used them hard since I was a wee little lad. Just as one example of one of my favorites, I've gutted and field dressed more deer and wild hogs, filleted more largemouth bass and prep cooked / general camp chores with my old Woodsman # 102 than I can recall in the last 30 some years, season in and season out, and she is still sharp as a razor, typically needing just a few swipes on my old stropping block. Every once in a while after going through bone and cartilage I do need to bust out the old Wichita stone and give her a few licks, but that's it.

I purchased her from the sporting goods counter from the JC Penny store in Gainesville, Florida in 1977.. So son, on this light tackle, please don't embarrass yourself anymore with such silly statements as the one above, as it only serves to make you look foolish.

 

[Josh K]

Typically, I wouldn't have posted here about such nonsense. But, this is the classic ignorant knee jerk reaction post about Buck's 420HC by a human being with no experience with Buck knives whatsoever. Buck's 420HC is in a class all by itself due to the company's famous quench, heat treat and superior grinding. You have obviously never used a Buck knife in your life..

I've owned many Buck knives and used them hard since I was a wee little lad. Just as one example of one of my favorites, I've gutted and field dressed more deer and wild hogs, filleted more largemouth bass and prep cooked / general camp chores with my old Woodsman # 102 than I can recall in the last 30 some years, season in and season out, and she is still sharp as a razor, typically needing just a few swipes on my old stropping block. Every once in a while after going through bone and cartilage I do need to bust out the old Wichita stone and give her a few licks, but that's it.

I purchased her from the sporting goods counter from the JC Penny store in Gainesville, Florida in 1977.. So son, on this light tackle, please don't embarrass yourself anymore with such silly statements as the one above, as it only serves to make you look foolish.

No problem. My statement is the generalized argument about Buck's knives. I have owned several Buck knives (most in upgraded steel models). The steel itself is fine in most cases, however, their 420HC doesn't hold it's edge long enough for me. My experience only.

 

[GIRLYmann]

"...Why Doesn't BUCK Grow Beyond 420HC?..."
- Confederate

Thought it was obvious that there exist in every manufacturing company a delicate balance between what's good for the company economically along with what the majority of consumers can afford, versus what can usually turn out to be a rather costly gamble for the company producing an expensive product (with all the bells and whistles) which has absolutely no gurantee of the existance of such a product sustaining a consistant sales figure.
Bottomline, consistant sales figures keeps everyone in business.
And it appears that Buck Knives has secured its business operations most comfortably thru the wide use of 420HC.
A custom knife department may see to the needs of a customer who might fancy a more upgraded model from that of the standard line. Chances are such a department would run into losses simply because orders would be very limited compared with the standard product line.

 

[hardheart]

Typically, I wouldn't have posted here about such nonsense. But, this is the classic ignorant knee jerk reaction post about Buck's 420HC by a human being with no experience with Buck knives whatsoever. Buck's 420HC is in a class all by itself due to the company's famous quench, heat treat and superior grinding. You have obviously never used a Buck knife in your life..

I've owned many Buck knives and used them hard since I was a wee little lad. Just as one example of one of my favorites, I've gutted and field dressed more deer and wild hogs, filleted more largemouth bass and prep cooked / general camp chores with my old Woodsman # 102 than I can recall in the last 30 some years, season in and season out, and she is still sharp as a razor, typically needing just a few swipes on my old stropping block. Every once in a while after going through bone and cartilage I do need to bust out the old Wichita stone and give her a few licks, but that's it.

I purchased her from the sporting goods counter from the JC Penny store in Gainesville, Florida in 1977.. So son, on this light tackle, please don't embarrass yourself anymore with such silly statements as the one above, as it only serves to make you look foolish.

Why should your edge holding requirements invalidate his statement? 'Sufficient' edge holding is a subjective matter.

 

[audiopile]

Have a feeling that ease of polishing is one of the reasons that Buck has stayed with 420HC . S30V in particular is a bear to get a perfect "shine" on. I know this has nothing to do with the usefullness of the tool - but bling does sell.

 

[sunnyd]

(1)

Serious question. What is wrong with 420HC?

(2)

Poor edge retention. Poor finish. Generally considered a "cheap" steel. Not something I'd ever want in my knife, unless it was disposable. It can't be hardened enough to hold an edge well, even if it initially takes a very sharp edge.

Why should your edge holding requirements invalidate his statement? 'Sufficient' edge holding is a subjective matter.

hardheart,

I recon technically you could be right about the "sufficient" edge holding ability being a subjective matter, if you take my post out of context. However, that would presuppose that Josh did not have the skill set to use or sharpen a Buck knife with their 420HC, ergo the reason for his problems.

Giving him the benefit of the doubt that he does possess basic skills in regard to proper usage and sharpening on how to use his Buck knives built with 420HC, and getting back into the original context of my post:

(1) Culpeper (quoted above) asked a simple question.

(2) Josh responded (quoted above) with what appears to be an assumption loosely based on what he either heard somewhere or read somewhere about the typical off the shelf 420HC specifications and where it ranks among the knife/tool steel family in general. Admittedly, 420HC is among the bottom of the chart in comparison to most steels.

However, that is not what was being discussed and his statement does not consider Buck's tried and true historical processes regarding the manufacturing procedure including quench, heat treat and grind on their 420HC as I previously stated. Therefore, he was comparing apples and oranges by making these assumptions, and it was apparent that he did not know the difference between the two, IMO.

I know better and so does the rest of the vast population of Buck users that have been around for a spell who actually utilize these superior tools for their difficult messy cutting chores year after year.

I don't even want you to take my word for it. Try one for yourself and see what is true or and what is not. Hope this clears things up for you.

 

[hardheart]

I have tried it, Josh says he has as well. I also have tried many other steels from highly regarded manufacturers and from custom makers. Buck heat treats 420HC well, I have other knives with higher carbon content, as well as other alloying elements, and they also received quality heat treat. The higher alloy content increases the wear resistance and these edges just last longer. Buck gets the most they can out of 420HC, that doesn't mean it will equal other steels, or that it is enough for all users.

If it's a choice between Bos treated S30V or BG-42 and Bos treated 420HC, I can't imagine the 420HC is going to last as long in abrasive cutting. You can get the same Buck process control with a better steel for the task. 420HC might be good enough, it might not, depends on who you ask and what they did with it. I don't mind it too much myself, but my purchases run a wide range anyway. My last 5 knives were CPM S110V, 4140, CPM M4, CPM 3V, and L6.

 

[Josh K]

hardheart,

I recon technically you could be right about the "sufficient" edge holding ability being a subjective matter, if you take my post out of context. However, that would presuppose that Josh did not have the skill set to use or sharpen a Buck knife with their 420HC, ergo the reason for his problems.

I can't free hand worth shit (well, a little), but I can use a Lansky.

Giving him the benefit of the doubt that he does possess basic skills in regard to proper usage and sharpening on how to use his Buck knives built with 420HC, and getting back into the original context of my post:

(1) Culpeper (quoted above) asked a simple question.

(2) Josh responded (quoted above) with what appears to be an assumption loosely based on what he either heard somewhere or read somewhere about the typical off the shelf 420HC specifications and where it ranks among the knife/tool steel family in general. Admittedly, 420HC is among the bottom of the chart in comparison to most steels.

What company "typically" uses 420HC? Specs are specs. This steel has this much carbon, nitrogen, whatever, and this steel has this much.

However, that is not what was being discussed and his statement does not consider Buck's tried and true historical processes regarding the manufacturing procedure including quench, heat treat and grind on their 420HC as I previously stated. Therefore, he was comparing apples and oranges by making these assumptions, and it was apparent that he did not know the difference between the two, IMO.

420HC is 420HC. Sure they might actually heat treat the blade unlike some china made knives, but it's still the same steel. Two apples. One's grown with opera music and sunlight. The other is just grown in sunlight.

I know better and so does the rest of the vast population of Buck users that have been around for a spell who actually utilize these superior tools for their difficult messy cutting chores year after year.

I don't even want you to take my word for it. Try one for yourself and see what is true or and what is not. Hope this clears things up for you.

What's tried and true about a 420HC ht? I'll be the first to admit that I don't know much about knife making processes, but what makes it historic? To me, comparing a well heat treated 420HC blade and a poorly heat treated S30V blade (made a while ago in this, or another thread) is the apples and oranges comparison. Properly heat treat both steels and see what they can do.

I can't bring myself to believe that Buck has some "magic" quality in their heat treat that makes their 420/440 steel better then most. It may be better then say cheap china made blades, but it can't bring the steel past it's own abilities.

 

[brownshoe]

SunnyD per your remark "I purchased her from the sporting goods counter from the JC Penny store in Gainesville, Florida in 1977.. So son, on this light tackle, please don't embarrass yourself anymore with such silly statements as the one above, as it only serves to make you look foolish."

So son, IIRC, a 1977 Buck would be 440C if stainless, not 420HC. If it is 440C, this is the stainless that Buck decided was too hard to sharpen for their "normal" customer thus they went to 420HC. Josh's experience with 420HC would then not be comparable to your 1977 Buck product. Even Buck would expect your old knife to hold an edge longer.

 

[sunnyd]

I have tried it, Josh says he has as well. I also have tried many other steels from highly regarded manufacturers and from custom makers. Buck heat treats 420HC well, I have other knives with higher carbon content, as well as other alloying elements, and they also received quality heat treat. The higher alloy content increases the wear resistance and these edges just last longer. Buck gets the most they can out of 420HC, that doesn't mean it will equal other steels, or that it is enough for all users.

If it's a choice between Bos treated S30V or BG-42 and Bos treated 420HC, I can't imagine the 420HC is going to last as long in abrasive cutting. You can get the same Buck process control with a better steel for the task. 420HC might be good enough, it might not, depends on who you ask and what they did with it. I don't mind it too much myself, but my purchases run a wide range anyway. My last 5 knives were CPM S110V, 4140, CPM M4, CPM 3V, and L6.

hardheart,

At what point did I ever state that Buck's 420HC was superior to other steels?

Fact is, I never did. I did however, point out that the post Josh made does not hold water.

Quoted by Josh K regarding Buck's 420HC, "Disposable".. "It can't be hardened enough to hold an edge well, even if it initially takes a very sharp edge."

Sorry, but that is just factually incorrect.

As I side bar, I must say you are preaching to the quire when it comes to utilizing some of the more superior steels compared to 420HC as whole. I have owned and used knives made by Chris Reeve in S30V which few would dispute are a fine end user steel. For many, many years I have owned and still use Bob Dozier's(Doctor D-2) knives made with his world famous D-2 with his signature quench and heat treat. I have owned and used Case's BG-42 and found it a very fine super steel to use. O-1 by many makers, A-2 as well, including multiple models made by Bark River Knife & Tool. 1095 from current and past makers. I could do this for a while longer but I think it's redundant, and again, not relevant to this discussion.

I will leave you with the following.. For many years I have used Buck knives of all styles and models of which had their 420HC. Lock back folders like 110's, 112's, slipjoints like 301's and others, fixed blades like 119's, 105's and among just a few. As previously stated in my original post with Josh, I revealed full disclosure regarding my favorite little Buck knife fixed blade, the 102 Woodsman and some of the riggers I continue to put her through since the late 1970's. I figure this thread needs a picture of the old workhorse..

Sure she ain't much to look at now, what with her black phenolic handle faded light charcoal grey and pitted, her beat up aluminum pommel and double guard and severely scratched up blade from years of hunting fishing, frog gigging, camping and general woods walking. But, she will cut open a can of beans and dice up some venusian for your stew around the camp fire this evening and still pop hairs on your arm.

 

[sunnyd]

SunnyD per your remark "I purchased her from the sporting goods counter from the JC Penny store in Gainesville, Florida in 1977.. So son, on this light tackle, please don't embarrass yourself anymore with such silly statements as the one above, as it only serves to make you look foolish."

So son, IIRC, a 1977 Buck would be 440C if stainless, not 420HC. If it is 440C, this is the stainless that Buck decided was too hard to sharpen for their "normal" customer thus they went to 420HC. Josh's experience with 420HC would then not be comparable to your 1977 Buck product. Even Buck would expect your old knife to hold an edge longer.

You may be right about the switch on the steel, I am not sure at this point. I will look it up and find out unless you can tell me definitively with documentation what exact year they switched and what models they switched and when.

Irregardless, As I have already stated, I have used many later models with 420HC just as hard with out failures of any kind whatsoever, the 102 was just my favorite.

 

[Josh K]

Sorry, but that is just factually incorrect.

Must be a matter of opinion. I expect my knives to hold an edge for a while. Doesn't have to be hair popping, but it has to last. Buck doesn't cut it for me.

I will leave you with the following.. For many years I have used Buck knives of all styles and models of which had their 420HC. Lock back folders like 110's, 112's, slipjoints like 301's and others, fixed blades like 119's, 105's and among just a few. As previously stated in my original post with Josh, I revealed full disclosure regarding my favorite little Buck knife fixed blade, the 102 Woodsman and some of the riggers I continue to put her through since the late 1970's. I figure this thread needs a picture of the old workhorse..

Sure she ain't much to look at now, what with her black phenolic handle faded light charcoal grey and pitted, her beat up aluminum pommel and double guard and severely scratched up blade from years of hunting fishing, frog gigging, camping and general woods walking. But, she will cut open a can of beans and dice up some venusian for your stew around the camp fire this evening and still pop hairs on your arm.

I imagine you're starting to think of the knife in an almost nostalgic sense? They way you're talking about it, it almost sounds like you're talking about a 1960's car that will (crazy as it sounds) still start up and warm your feet on a cold winter day...

I'm not one to throw mud or anything, but I have opened a couple of cans with my Buck knives. It neatly rolls the edge right off the blade, so I don't know how you can still pop hairs after that. (It was the side of a Pepsi can, btw. Not thicker tin cans.)

I just stated my opinions based on my experience with Buck knives. Yours are probably different. Same as if I asked a die hard Spyderco user to handle a Benchmade or vise-versa. It's ingrained favoritism which can in some cases cloud judgment.

 

[sunnyd]

I can't free hand worth shit (well, a little), but I can use a Lansky.


What company "typically" uses 420HC? Specs are specs. This steel has this much carbon, nitrogen, whatever, and this steel has this much.


420HC is 420HC. Sure they might actually heat treat the blade unlike some china made knives, but it's still the same steel. Two apples. One's grown with opera music and sunlight. The other is just grown in sunlight.


What's tried and true about a 420HC ht? I'll be the first to admit that I don't know much about knife making processes, but what makes it historic? To me, comparing a well heat treated 420HC blade and a poorly heat treated S30V blade (made a while ago in this, or another thread) is the apples and oranges comparison. Properly heat treat both steels and see what they can do.

I can't bring myself to believe that Buck has some "magic" quality in their heat treat that makes their 420/440 steel better then most. It may be better then say cheap china made blades, but it can't bring the steel past it's own abilities.

Well, I recon you need more help than I thought. Perhaps a little homework assignment would be appropriate. Read up on different methods of quenching and heat treating in general. And then you will perhaps get the fact that along with grinding techniques, it makes all the difference in the world. Nothing magical about it, just technique and chemistry and physics.

Historical = History. Buck has had a long one, look it up an educate yourself.

 

[Josh K]

Well, I recon you need more help than I thought. Perhaps a little homework assignment would be appropriate. Read up on quenching and heat treating in general. And then you will perhaps get the fact that along with grinding techniques, it makes all the difference in the world. Nothing magical about it, just technique and physics.

Historical = History. Buck has had a long one, look it up and educate yourself.

I fail to see how Buck's "history" makes a difference. They've been making knives for a while, and as far as I can see, they still cater to the department store crowd. If that's their target audience, then fine. Whatever. I could care less. I don't buy stock Buck anymore. It has to be something a bit better then 420HC for me. The focus of this thread, is several users who would like to see Buck move past that mentality.

 

[sunnyd]

Must be a matter of opinion. I expect my knives to hold an edge for a while. Doesn't have to be hair popping, but it has to last. Buck doesn't cut it for me.



I imagine you're starting to think of the knife in an almost nostalgic sense? They way you're talking about it, it almost sounds like you're talking about a 1960's car that will (crazy as it sounds) still start up and warm your feet on a cold winter day...

I'm not one to throw mud or anything, but I have opened a couple of cans with my Buck knives. It neatly rolls the edge right off the blade, so I don't know how you can still pop hairs after that. (It was the side of a Pepsi can, btw. Not thicker tin cans.)

I just stated my opinions based on my experience with Buck knives. Yours are probably different. Same as if I asked a die hard Spyderco user to handle a Benchmade or vise-versa. It's ingrained favoritism which can in some cases cloud judgment.

Taking statements out of context is what others do when they have nothing positive left to add to the discussion, but instead like to attempt to appear funny or cute which just shows off the lack of knowledge and the maturity level of the individual. I posted a picture of the old gal and described it to show you what is obvious to my eyes after all the years of use as accurately as I can. Take it or leave it.

 

[hardheart]

Fact is, I never did. I did however, point out that the post Josh made does not hold water.

Quoted by Josh K regarding Buck's 420HC, "Disposable".. "It can't be hardened enough to hold an edge well, even if it initially takes a very sharp edge."

Sorry, but that is just factually incorrect.

depends on what you are saying is incorrect. If it is that hardness generally equates to edge holding, that is arguable, and has been argued a fair bit. Phil Wilson has posted a few times saying that increased hardness gives him increased cutting life, so he runs his knives fairly hard. Nozh2002 showed very good extended performance from S60V which didn't get run past Rc56-57 (IIRC) because of brittleness issues.

Now, if it's that 420HC doesn't hold an edge well, again that is purely subjective. Why it doesn't hold an edge well - alloy content, carbide fraction, maximum attainable hardness, who knows.

 

[sunnyd]

I fail to see how Buck's "history" makes a difference. They've been making knives for a while, and as far as I can see, they still cater to the department store crowd. If that's their target audience, then fine. Whatever. I could care less. I don't buy stock Buck anymore. It has to be something a bit better then 420HC for me. The focus of this thread, is several users who would like to see Buck move past that mentality.

Sounds like you answered your own question.